[svyr]

In the nicest way possible Svyr, not one word in your response to burn in and how you felt actually applies.  The majority of what you reported is as you said, purely psychological and you dismiss the possibility of burn in because you failed to look into this.  This is what i call " following the leader".  The super users around the audio world may say it doesn't exist, therefore you do just because.  I haven't the slightest idea what the heck decibel ratings and their possible change after burn in actually has to do with sound stage qualities noticeably changing, a small boost or in the WS70s case a reduction, stage depth, shape, and a vast array of bass qualities.  None of which will show up if you were only looking for frequency response or some type of weird notion that the overall loudness will change.  
 
I do actually read reviews of burn in here on head fi and many other places and I have only come across a few people mentioning a change in decibel ratings.  As if the human ear were able to pick up on such a thing...thats pure nonsense to me and it is the backing for nearly everyones dismissal of burn in existing.  the vast majority of people reporting burn in usually say staging qualities change, some bass feels different and noticeably less boomy, thick, or thin.  Yet most of those who say burn in doesnt exist feel as i said...they hooked their burnt in headphones to a frequency response meter or look for decibel changes and that literally is the same as saying "man...my tires on my car seem like they are wearing down, someone go take a look for me please"
 

uhuh, sure, if there's no evidence on FR response charts, THD+N, square wave and impulse response charts let's attribute it all to magic lol (golden ears)...
Most K701 users report audible differences (omgbbq the bass is so much tighter/there's more of it)...That should definitely show up as a change in either the FR bits in the low end, and or the square wave and impulse response charts. None of the measurements Tyll made WRT Q701 seem to have enough deviation to even remotely support the claims users make . Stage shape would also show up as a relative change between FR ranges on the chart...
So again, with all the romantic fluff... You seriously don't believe sound stage difference won't show up on the measured out side of the earphones? I'm sorry but that's ridiculous, if there is a difference it will be in the above 4 measurements - sound is not magic and no number of inappropriate analogies to cars will make it so .

Let's see what's more likely, magical unmeasureable changes, or users experiencing placebo or adapting to the sound sig... To top it off people seem to always think burn-in has a positive effect lol. That's even more absurd.

At some point after years of use you probably will get audible changes as the drivers physically degrade, but then it's not the favourable kind of burn-in.

Pad foam wear in is pretty real though. Decreasing the distance between the ear and the driver will cause difference in sound. So is changes in positioning the headphones on the head.

 

[Graphicism]

Quote:

At some point after years of use you probably will get audible changes as the drivers physically degrade, but then it's not the favourable kind of burn-in.

Well hang on now... first you called it out as a myth, now you're saying after extended use the drivers will physically change. This is looking at the same thing from two sides. Consider after continuous use, some 300-500 hours the driver warms, breaks in, and stays in this physical state for a few thousand more hours before changing further until finally needing replacement. The sweet spot being 'physically degraded' after a few hundred hours.
 
Oh and "To top it off people seem to always think burn-in has a positive effect lol. That's even more absurd." is not exactly true, I've read a number of complaints of headphones not sounding as good as when they first arrived... just connect the dots.

 

[Sil3nce]

Whatever the case I wish you the best of luck my good friend. It's been a pleasure seeing you around and take care wherever you go. I can definitely understand where you're going with a lot of your statements and I could hardly not concur. Just dropping by for a visit =]

 

[dub Beatz]

I've always liked you swbf! 

 

[Sil3nce]

Quote:

I've always liked you swbf! 

I've always liked you dub Beatz

 

[Uncle Erik]

Burn-in? If drivers actually changed, then that would become a warranty issue. Companies go to great lengths to avoid claims. If testing showed a fundamental change after a few hundred hours, legal would freak out and demand heads roll. And heads would roll. Further, they really do test drivers for thousands of hours before product rollout. If a significant change were detected, the engineers would be whipped and sent to fix it.

Burn-in is audiophile ceremony, superstition and ritual. Nothing more.

And if you think your ears are golden, then tell us where the channel imbalance is in your amp or source. Components are rarely matched more than +/- 5% in gear. Which means that left and right are improperly matched. Yes, this is very measurable. If your ears cannot hear a measurable difference between channels, how could they possibly hear an unmeasurable difference?

If your ears are "good" enough to hear unmeasurable differences, then you ought to be screaming, yelling and up in arms over the measurable difference between left and right on your amp. That you "believers" aren't is just further evidence of placebo and suggestion.

 

[svyr]

Well hang on now... first you called it out as a myth, now you're saying after extended use the drivers will physically change. This is looking at the same thing from two sides. Consider after continuous use, some 300-500 hours the driver warms, breaks in, and stays in this physical state for a few thousand more hours before changing further until finally needing replacement. The sweet spot being 'physically degraded' after a few hundred hours.
 
Oh and "To top it off people seem to always think burn-in has a positive effect lol. That's even more absurd." is not exactly true, I've read a number of complaints of headphones not sounding as good as when they first arrived... just connect the dots.

heh, I particularly dislike the blanket '300-500h' statement. Considering there's a wide variety of transducer technologies (planar, ribbon, massive number of dynamic ones, electrostatic, balanced armature, moving armature), such a statement and the assumption that things necessarily get better before getting worse are meh.

> is not exactly true, I've read a number of complaints of headphones not sounding as good as when they first arrived... just connect the dots.

you sound an awful lot like you're actually referring to people going - oh I used my DT880 for 5 years, in a humid room and at near max spl, and now it's not working as good (wear and tear)


hmm, look like I missed pt2 of Tyll's tests... http://www.innerfidelity.com/content/break-part-deux?page=1 By the looks of the graphs, after about 80h Q701 seems to have settled a bit (WRT impulse response and less variation between subsequent FR readings. I can't see anything on cumulative FR response, since the FR readings are differences between subsequent readings). That said the magnitude of changes is pretty small, so it's veeery doubtful they'be audible.


>And if you think your ears are golden, then tell us where the channel imbalance is in your amp or source. Components are rarely matched more than +/- 5% in gear. Which means that left and right are improperly matched. Yes, this is very measurable. If your ears cannot hear a measurable difference between channels, how could they possibly hear an unmeasurable difference?

Including but not limited to dodgy vol pots being matched at 1khz at 12 o'clock position ... And I'm not talking about dodgyamp, even Benchmark DAC1 has it in the manual http://www.benchmarkmedia.com/dac/dac1-usb/manual
(TIP: For optimal L/R balance, and
minimal noise, the XLR gain jumpers
should be set so that comfortable
listening levels occur when the ‘Volume
Control’ is set above the 10th detent.)

and Benchmark media market their DACs on stellar measurements

 

[Katun]

 
 
 
Quote:

Burn-in? If drivers actually changed, then that would become a warranty issue. Companies go to great lengths to avoid claims. If testing showed a fundamental change after a few hundred hours, legal would freak out and demand heads roll. And heads would roll. Further, they really do test drivers for thousands of hours before product rollout. If a significant change were detected, the engineers would be whipped and sent to fix it.

Burn-in is audiophile ceremony, superstition and ritual. Nothing more.

And if you think your ears are golden, then tell us where the channel imbalance is in your amp or source. Components are rarely matched more than +/- 5% in gear. Which means that left and right are improperly matched. Yes, this is very measurable. If your ears cannot hear a measurable difference between channels, how could they possibly hear an unmeasurable difference?

If your ears are "good" enough to hear unmeasurable differences, then you ought to be screaming, yelling and up in arms over the measurable difference between left and right on your amp. That you "believers" aren't is just further evidence of placebo and suggestion.

I'm going to frame this on my wall...
 

 

[3602]

I'm surprised that nobody picked up the Cave Johnson (Aperture) references. 
I hear ya about the headband issues. SRH840 anyone? Come on Shure, seriously What?
Burn-in... It exists, yeah. Whether it's the phones or your head, that's up for debate.

 

[roma101]

Burn-in? If drivers actually changed, then that would become a warranty issue. Companies go to great lengths to avoid claims. If testing showed a fundamental change after a few hundred hours, legal would freak out and demand heads roll. And heads would roll. Further, they really do test drivers for thousands of hours before product rollout. If a significant change were detected, the engineers would be whipped and sent to fix it.

Burn-in is audiophile ceremony, superstition and ritual. Nothing more.

And if you think your ears are golden, then tell us where the channel imbalance is in your amp or source. Components are rarely matched more than +/- 5% in gear. Which means that left and right are improperly matched. Yes, this is very measurable. If your ears cannot hear a measurable difference between channels, how could they possibly hear an unmeasurable difference?

If your ears are "good" enough to hear unmeasurable differences, then you ought to be screaming, yelling and up in arms over the measurable difference between left and right on your amp. That you "believers" aren't is just further evidence of placebo and suggestion.

Posts like these sound absolutely logical and correct. But here's a genuine question: why am I reading to no end that Ultrasones need hundreds and hundreds of hours of burn in? Even greatly regarded users that are picked to review for high end companies swear that ultrasones need at least 300 hours of burn in. People have reported horrid sound change at 50 hrs till things start cleaning up at 120 hrs. Are these people just imagining things as they get more accustomed to the ultrasone sound? I'm very curious about anyone's thoughts on this. It can be confusing to read such polar opposite views by highly trusted and regarded users that certainly know more than I do.

Anyway great post mike. Your posts and reviews will surely be missed and I'm sure you've helped more people than you know over the years.

 

[Katun]

Quote:

Posts like these sound absolutely logical and correct. But here's a genuine question: why am I reading to no end that Ultrasones need hundreds and hundreds of hours of burn in? Even greatly regarded users that are picked to review for high end companies swear that ultrasones need at least 300 hours of burn in. People have reported horrid sound change at 50 hrs till things start cleaning up at 120 hrs. Are these people just imagining things as they get more accustomed to the ultrasone sound? I'm very curious about anyone's thoughts on this. It can be confusing to read such polar opposite views by highly trusted and regarded users that certainly know more than I do.

Anyway great post mike. Your posts and reviews will surely be missed and I'm sure you've helped more people than you know over the years.

 
You know, I've always wanted to *really* test burn in for myself.
 
I wonder what would happen if I bought two of the same headphone (preferably one that is known to improve highly with burn in) and burned one in for 300 hours while the other waited patiently. Then, do a back and forth comparison between the two. That way, any difference would be instantly apparent. There's got to be at least a small handful of users that have done this, yet I cannot recall reading anything on the matter. But I would think something as simple as buying two pairs, burning one in and not the other, then comparing them would be the best way to actually see of the changes; assuming there is any.

 

[amigastar]

burn in does really exist. over at headfonia he wrote about two same headphones, one burned in and one not. it were the same observations as by me. the sound is more relaxed, liquid and clear (one would say mature maybe). i made these observation before him so it was not influenced by him.
anyway good luck on your job.

 

[Graphicism]

Quote:

Burn-in? If drivers actually changed, then that would become a warranty issue. Companies go to great lengths to avoid claims. If testing showed a fundamental change after a few hundred hours, legal would freak out and demand heads roll. And heads would roll. Further, they really do test drivers for thousands of hours before product rollout. If a significant change were detected, the engineers would be whipped and sent to fix it.

Let's say that burn-in is only in our heads, how does that explain the very same headphones sounding different simply because one has a few hundred hours to it's name and the other is new. This appears countless times in the forum and I've witnessed it myself with a HFI-780 and DT880. If the drivers aren't physically changing after a few hundred hours then production control is non-existent, therefore the question should be what's more likely; a headphone changes after a number of hours or every headphone is different because of poor production control. I would think it more important that every headphone is identical in sound from the getgo, if a driver warms and settles after a number of hours this is fine.
 
In addition why is it there are different versions of the Beyer T1, I've heard a 'normal' version and a bass-heavy version, this was also seen in the biocellulose drivers of the early Sonys. Furthermore I have a pair of phones from the late 70s that physically change in sound after about 30 minutes, this is as evident to my ears as warming a tube amp. What is your stance on warming a tube amp prior to a listening session, is this also a ritual?

 

[tdockweiler]

Here's what more people should do...ignore people like Uncle Erik and take their opinions with a grain of salt and hear and try things with your OWN EARS FIRST. It's not hard or expensive. This way you will know for yourself. Some people are just too dead set in their ways and aren't willing to believe it's possible they may be wrong. The people who start up with their science based "facts" are especially annoying.
 
I never force myself to burn in headphones. EVER. Only 10% of the headphones I buy need it. I imagine some people who don't believe in burn-in have not owned enough headphones. It seems like most Sennheiser headphones have never needed burn-in to sound great. With AKG headphones I did not notice any major differences after burn-in. The idea that all manufacturers burn in headphones is good for a laugh. If you're satisfied with how a headphone sounds out of the box, you don't need to force yourself to burn it in. Do it on your head!
 
It's funny how my first KRK KNS-8400 had ear piercing treble out of the box (icicles stabbing me in the ears) and after 3 days it was gone after burn-in. I guess it's my imagination.
Please also tell me why TWO of my DJ100's have sounded like absolute garbage out of the box. Distant mids, poor treble and just a muffled sound. Took nearly 4 days of burn-in.
 
I've made and tested a lot of different cables. I wish I knew why on earth they ALL sounded different. Every  single one. Why is this? I wish I knew and it'd be much easier if this was not happening. The Belden cable mde my HD-598 nearly unlistenable and very fatiguing. And cables makes no difference? The Canare cuts off the treble on my HD-650 and makes the HD-598 unclear and less detailed.
 
Interconnect cables I'm not a super huge believer in. With headphone cables I'm 100% a believer in because of the fact that stock cables are junk. I prefer to "upgrade" to something fairly cheap and make it myself.
Good cables don't need to be expensive. I don't think a $300 cable could ever be worth it. I haven't tried any. I just know I love $1.50foot Mogami cable and it improves my headphones.
 
Uncle Erik...how many cable upgrades for headphones have you tried? Which ones? How many headphones have you owned in your life? Probably several dozen or more? You don't ever try to prove yourself wrong? I do this all the time. I wish burn-in was just my brain, same with cables, but I'd be lying to myself. Thankfully these days most headphones don't require burn in, but some of mine have. It seems more common with the under $100 pairs of headphones. I suppose you also don't believe in amp synergy too right?

How about the fact that different pairs of the same model of headphone can vary slightly in sound quality? Oh wait, the manufacturers would NEVER let this happen! It's a known fact that some pairs of headphones of the same model can be bass heavy and the others NOT.
 
Hearing the differences between cables is a pain and you need to do lots of A/B comparisons. With some headphones it's much easier. People who say that they will improve a headphone by say 15% are crazy! The differences are usually subtle but worth it. The biggest improvement I ever heard with a headphone cable was upgrading the stock HD-598 cable to a Mogami (under $20) cable. It was enough of an improvement to make me want to sell off my HD-650.
 
To be a believer of cables it's best to try out a bunch of different (cheap) brands of wire with a combination of different headphones. I believe a cable makes such a difference that it's even capable of ruining a headphones signature. Laugh if you want, but that's what my Canare did to the HD-650. Not all people are going to be able to hear a difference of course. This is part of the problem.
 
BTW I can't hear a difference between speaker cables, but with headphone cables it's not too hard.

 

[Optimus Praim]

Burn in exists....
And i realised it when i monitored my Ultrasone DJ1 from the first hour until now that it has more than 80 hours of play time....
I am not imagining thinks and sure i am not telling my brain to hear stuff....