[Bill-P]

A repost from CD3000 thread, might be interesting for the Z7 modders:

 
Yep. And since we've brought this back here, I think I'll provide some data on why I think the Z7's drivers have "potential".
 
Here's the FR of the R10 as measured by the guy who measured the Z7 graphs that I used for the ports:
 


And here is the frequency response of the Sony Z7 as measured by the same guy... although likely using a different compensation curves -> peaks are more/less pronounced
 


If you ask me, I'd say... I'm seeing the same peak at around 3KHz, and also the same peak at around 7.5KHz. There is no peak at 16KHz, and that's what I've been trying to push. Though that's probably not very necessary since most people won't notice 16KHz, and there is not a lot of recordings (IMO) that go up that high.
 
The key difference between the 2 lies in their decay graphs, though. Here's the R10:
 


And here's the Z7:
 

 
Both headphones have some resonance, but the R10 keeps it under control most of the time. No resonance at 7.5KHz on R10, but I can see resonance at 7.5KHz on one channel of the Z7 (on the decay graph, this looks like a ridge that keeps trailing in time). Both headphones seem to have some resonance at 3KHz or so, but Z7 is more extreme as you can see resonance in Z7 is "isolated", and the ridge stands out quite obviously. Then Z7 has a lot more resonance at 1KHz and below, and it keeps resonating until 5ms and beyond, whereas R10 pretty much stops short at 3ms at 1KHz.
 
Since both headphones have similar frequency response (save for the 16KHz peak), I'd say... if the Z7 did not have those ridges or resonance, it would sound almost the same as the R10.
 
So yeah, I'm of the firm belief that the Z7 is a special headphone, and in some way, it really is the successor of the R10. But alas, its original design prevented that from happening, and that's why I'm trying to push it and see if I can ever get there.

 

[cdsa35000]

Yeah, its clearly that Z7 drivers are oversized for its too small housing and poor damping.
It would be much better if they were bigger like the R10/CD3000 or (semi) openback like the Qualia 010/SA5000, a miss right there.

 

[Bill-P]

Yeah, it's a shame. I honestly think this headphone could sound very very nice.
 
I'm starting to think Sony got previous R10 engineers to work on the drivers, and then they asked someone else to slap the drivers into some sort of enclosure and just call it a day.
 
That would explain so well the disjointed feeling I had when listening to the Z7.

 

[Lorspeaker]

lets wait for their 2nd attempt at the 70mmdriver...in a Z10 maybe? 
Bigger cups like the hifiman1000

 

[Bill-P]

Oh, now you're just being ridiculous. 

 
Honestly, though, I think I'm getting somewhere, but not sure how close/far I am from my goal yet. Will have to hear an R10 in person, and... admittedly, that has never happened.
 
Hoping I'll have the chance to do so at the next CanJam.

 

[kman1211]

  lets wait for their 2nd attempt at the 70mmdriver...in a Z10 maybe? 
Bigger cups like the hifiman1000

I need to listen to the Z7 sometime. My first experience with a 70mm driver wasn't good as the Sony MDR-MA900 is a grainy mess to my ears. I'm sort of hesitant about the Z7 for that reason even though it's a different headphone and a different driver, but I haven't heard people complain about grain on the Z7 like some do on the MA900 so that's a good sign. I know Sony is capable of a grain-free sound as the R10 was the most grain-free dynamic I've ever heard. 

 

[dweaver]

I had the MA900 and they really don't hold a candle to the Z7 in my opinion. The Z7 is certainly not as grainy if nothing else. But you should try the Z7 to make sure you like the signature of possible.

 

[kman1211]

I had the MA900 and they really don't hold a candle to the Z7 in my opinion. The Z7 is certainly not as grainy if nothing else. But you should try the Z7 to make sure you like the signature of possible.

That's good to hear, the MA900 barely scaled at all either, my other headphones improved a lot on my system, with the MA900 it was minor and stayed brash and harsh to my ears and the bass was weak compared to well-amped AKGs, Senns, Beyers, etc. That's good to hear. I'm not too picky about frequency response if the headphone is clean and clear. I'll have to wait on the Z7 as I have an HD 650 coming in tomorrow and I do already have a good grain-free closed back, the DT 150. If I for some reason feel I don't like my HD 650 more than my HD 600, I'll probably send back the HD 650 and get the Z7 instead otherwise I'm waiting on the Z7. 

 

[MacedonianHero]

  I have read so many (not so good) things about the Z7 and I was intrigued so I got a listen for an hour or so, right out of the ZX1 it was a mixed bag just as I had read, very warm overall, it lacked air and treble energy and bass was interesting as in deep and layered but fuzzy/messy. I had to push the ZX1 on very high volume and had a hunch it couldn't really drive those 70mm drivers.
 
I decided to come back to the store with my FiiO E18, not expecting the warm source to improve the already warm signature but... that second listen was nothing like from the ZX1, more air, bass way more defined and articulate and that's more suprising, trebles have way more sparkle to them. I'd say the sound is more balanced and less warm overall. Soundstage is also greatly improved. The laid back sound and the great comfort (a weak point of the Pandora Hope VI, unluckiky), I decided to get them.
 
As I don't have a better amp (no big need with Pandora Hope and IE800), I can't test the hypothesis but I think it needs a proper source. I am curious to know how the PHA-3 balanced would sound with those. I tested out a more analytical source with the Dragonfly on my MacBook, and wasn't disappointed, the analytical ESS Sabre really pairs well with the Z7 and it has not trouble driving them. Food for thoughts to get the PHA-3 and run this balanced.

 
Yep...source is quite important...with my AK100II, Resonance Labs Herus or my main rig (a bit overkill: Metrum Hex - GS-X Mk2), the Z7s sound quite wonderful!

 

[purk]

Quote: Originally Posted by Bill-P /img/forum/go_quote.gif


I'd hope so:
http://hifiman.com/Products/?pid=205


And yeah, I have tried to run it balanced. More impact, but still not as clean/clear.


I'm not asking for HD800 clarity, but at least it should be up to par with something like the Denon D5000/D7000, which are in the same price range. And still, I believe the Z7's drivers to be very capable. Sony simply mucked it up when they used the enclosure they did, and made the ear pads the way it is.


The Z7 would have been a worthy successor to the R10 if they had just gotten the enclosure right. I mean... its measurements look suspiciously similar to the R10. The R10 just sounds cleaner because it doesn't have to deal with enclosure resonance, poor damping factor, and the likes.


 

I'm not sure if getting the enclosure right will make the Z7 an R10 successor.  The two headphones actually sound the world apart.  The R10 for instance is very sweet and transparent sounding headphones with the only weakness is in its bass output.  It possess some of the most  beautiful and natural tones around.  They and the Qualia are also very fast and almost electrostatic like in their response.  The Z7 IMO is warmer and darker sounding headphones.  It probably has too much bass going on for my taste and certainly not as transparent as reference cans such as the HD800.  I'm not sure if Sony voiced the Z7 for more toward mainstream pop/rock culture in mind.  Don't get me wrong, I do like the Z7 a great deal but I also notice its shortcomings hence my quest to also making it better by using a good silver cable. 

Quote: Originally Posted by Bill-P /img/forum/go_quote.gif

Well, I have used my Z7 on a bus...


...yeah, the cable was annoying.


Noise isolation is actually fairly good on a bus. The relaxed treble is actually quite welcome here, as I had to turn up the volume slightly more than usual to combat bus noise (and extra vibrations), but no fatigue set in. And bus was loud enough that no one else could hear what I was listening to.


In a completely quiet office, though, the Z7 does leak out some very faint music. Again... not enough so that folks would hear unless I'm turning things up to dance floor level, and the next person sits pretty close to me.


And @purk, I won't claim my Z7 to sound like an HD800, but I think I have gotten it to a decent state as far as technicality goes. Will have to let you listen to it if we get the chance. Are you coming to CanJam, sir?


 

I would love to check out your ultra mod on the Z7.  Are we talking about a Canjam in this coming March?

Quote: Originally Posted by Bill-P /img/forum/go_quote.gif



Bright doesn't necessarily mean it's "transparent".


For instance, the Audeze LCD-2 can hardly be described as bright, but yet it could be fairly transparent. On the other hand, something like the Ultrasone Edition 10 is bright... very very bright, but not transparent at all.


It's kind of hard to convey this, but once you go and listen more to higher-end gears, then that "transparency" will start to make some sense. It's what people meant by "speed", "transient", etc... The Stax SR-009 is one headphone that's not necessarily bright, but on first listen, people will say it's bright because they mistake its speed and transient response for brightness. Once you listen to it more and compare it side by side to the Abyss/HD800, etc... you'll find that the SR-009, in reality, is very neutral, and it's not bright at all.


I'm coming from a planar magnetic headphone (HE-560) in the same veins, so to me, the Z7 sounded extremely thick, muddy, and veiled.




I didn't claim to hear all of the Z7's true potential? I said I got it to a "decent state". That's still far from true potential.


And either way, I don't think connector transition really is as bad as you are saying. For instance, the HD800 has detachable connectors/plugs as well, and yet even with those plugs in the way, it's still a very resolving, super fast, super transparent headphone compared to many other headphones that are hard-wired.

 

I think we are pretty much on the same page here hence the reason we both are trying to make the Z7 a bit better.  For what Sony you can get the Z7 I still think it is a good buy given its excellent build quality and highly forgiving sound.

 

[ButtUglyJeff]

  Well, I have used my Z7 on a bus...
 
...yeah, the cable was annoying.
 

 
What were you using to drive them?  I see so many mixed reviews on how the Z7s sound directly out of a DAP.  I'm getting the jones for the new ZX2, and I so want it to push the Z7 with at least some authority....
 
I'm also torn on cables myself.....Kimber or silver, Kimber or silver...  I would really like the Kimber with the right angle 1/8" connector, but my spidey since says silver would "tighten" things up a bit...

 

[zazex]

   
What were you using to drive them?  I see so many mixed reviews on how the Z7s sound directly out of a DAP.  I'm getting the jones for the new ZX2, and I so want it to push the Z7 with at least some authority....
 
I'm also torn on cables myself.....Kimber or silver, Kimber or silver...  I would really like the Kimber with the right angle 1/8" connector, but my spidey since says silver would "tighten" things up a bit...

What's a good source for silver cables for the Z7?

 

[qsk78]

  What's a good source for silver cables for the Z7?

Moon Audio I guess but it will be more expensive than Kimber
http://www.moon-audio.com/silver-dragon-cables/moon-audio-silver-dragon-v3-headphone-cable.html

 

[zazex]

Thanks for the info.

 

[purk]

I highly recommended their silver dragon line. However if you can do some DIY, you can save a lot of money that way. I had a headphile black silver cable that I am not using so I reterminated it to balanced 4 pin and dual mini jacks on the headphones end. given that the standard mini jack is very easy to solder, it should not be too difficult. You can also buy a used silver headphone cable and reterminated with dual mini jacks. I personally want to check out the Kimber myself but it looks very stiff and likely won't tighten up the sound of this headphone the way I want. Then again the build quality must be a lot better on the Kimber.