[nc8000]

Flexibility of headphone cables is strongly overrated.

Well to be fair it was between mono blocks and speakers

 

[raybies]

I am glad they are finally reviewing the HE1. Call me insane but in the pure enjoyment category I say these beat even the HE1. I do have them and the HE90 too. Plus SR009, LCD4,R10....

Any chance we can see a photo of your collection? Just curious to see how you've placed them.

 

[raybies]

Hi all you cable guys, is there any measurement out there that proves the usefulness of such expensive cables over the stock cables? I mean graphs and maybe waterfall diagrams? All what people tell who bought expensive cables is purely subjective and not backed up by facts. Or do you have real evidence?

[ready for flaming]
I've looked and not found any cable measurements which is surprising bcos there are a lot of headphone and speaker FR graphs... surely changing the cable is a 1 min exercise. If anyone has any please share.

Longer cables need to be better quality due to the resistance/capacitance/inductance and the impedance of the speaker. The Z1R being a fairly low impedance HP could theoretically benefit from a thicker cable or lower resistance cable.
Silver coated copper has lower resistance, than pure copper.
Interconnects are gold plated bcos it doesn't oxidise much, and since they're in the air all the time silver or copper would oxidise pretty quick... also hence OFC.

It wouldn't be hard for somebody to measure cable resistance, and again show that the difference in audio is measurable. I believe I read somewhere that when the r is >3% of imp there is a change in FR... can't find where.
Just looking at the Z1R's cable I can see they're way thicker than they need to be, not sure what the gauge is vs say the Kimber cable, but the Kimber is longer and copper, so adds more resistance when gauge is =.

Capacitance of the cable is also easily measure, and from there one could determine the attenuation of frequencies. You can experiment with an old pair of headphones by just adding a capacitor inline, to see how it muffles sound; smaller cap in Farads affects high freqs. larger cap affects lower freqs. Can't remember the cap size but tiny so in pico Farads.

I'm in to hobby electronics, and I'm not too sure about inductance, but I believe it also attenuates freqs.

To do the above measurements you just need an LCR meter which can be bought on ebay for $5-100, and once you have the difference there are mathematical formulas you can use to "scientifically" calculate the different cables make to frequencies.



My subjective experience with cables ended with my home theatre setup; my rear speakers (Paradigm Monitor 3) had the cheapest junk cable probably aluminium plated from some PC speakers bcos that's what I had that reached when they arrived. After a couple weeks I bought some nice thick copper cable ~$15/m with some nice gold plated interconnects. Did I hear a difference with a 7-9m run, no. I tried with the front speakers Kef Q 900, cheap vs expensive, nothing. Also tried one speaker with expensive one with cheap, nada.
Btw the thin cable warmed up at higher volume, so resistance should have affected sound.
I also replace the free sub (12" DALI) 25m coax cable to an expensive 1m, 0 difference... and the hum was still there.

So when I hear people saying how the cable boosted mids or reduced highs, I think why not just EQ that range.

But that's just me.
[/ready for flaming]

 

[cjfrbw]

Why would you want measurements when you could be enjoying all of the pleasures of mystic superstition?

Heh, Heh! I loved the video above. "It is impossible for the average consumer to choose the right equipment based on objective data."

 

[buzzlulu]

Maybe that's why I think the Naim DAC V1 & Z1R combo is so strong. Naim has always been know for PRAT. It's double PRAT!

+1 +1 +1
Spoken from someone who runs a 552/500
I judge everything around whether it has PRAT - do my toes tap while I listen to the music.
With the Z1R - an overwhelming YES

 

[raybies]

It is impossible for the average consumer to choose the right equipment based on objective data.

Well yes and no.
Audio gear have specs. surely people would also benefit from inductance (L), capacitance (C), and resistance (R) measurements of a cable.
If 2 cables have the same LCR then science says they should sound identical or all your electronic audio equipment would not work.

 

[macdane]

Well yes and no.
Audio gear have specs. surely people would also benefit from inductance (L), capacitance (C), and resistance (R) measurements of a cable.
If 2 cables have the same LCR then science says they should sound identical or all your electronic audio equipment would not work.

Hmm. In my experience, it's a subset of *people* saying that cables should sound identical one another. Science generally avoids that topic, and is content to provide what each side of the argument sees as supporting evidence.

 

[nc8000]

Can’t find it now but somewhere I found actual measurements and charts that showed that the way the Kimber Axios is braided means that it is more resistent to picking up and transmitting noise.

I will also add my story about burn in of cables. Some years ago I got some Cables from Whiplash Audio (I’ve used many of Craigs cables over the yesrs). One of the cables came by mistake in clear rather than smokey so Craig sent me a new one. When I received it and attached it to my JH13 there was a difference in sound where I had certainly not expected any since the only difference where the colour of the isolation material. When I wrote and asked Craig about it he said it was because he had started doing 2-300 hours of burn in on his cables before sending them out so the difference I heard was between about 10 hours and 2-300 hours of playtime. Believe what you want, but that’s my story.

 

[raybies]

If anyone is interested in science behind audio production I can recommend: The Art of Sound Reproduction.
It details the science on skin effect (forgot to include that above), materials, braiding, shielding, balancing... it's 20 yo but still relevant.

Quite funny that the speaker cable section starts on page 187 with:
The subject of loudspeaker cables is almost guaranteed to spark a heated debate in which the laws of physics are temporarily set aside to improve the spectacle. This author frankly has no time for such theatricalities and prefers to cling to reality. The job of a loudspeaker cable is simply to deliver electricity from an amplifier to a loudspeaker. It is undeniable that the cable is in series with the signal path, and could in principle affect the sound quality, but in practice the losses are dwarfed by shortcomings elsewhere. Clearly a real cable will have resistance, inductance and capacitance and so it is hardly surprising that the waveform at the amplifier end will be slightly different to that at the speaker end. Obviously this difference can be minimized by the use of a sufficiently heavy conductor cross-section to make the series resistance low.

 

[music_man]

Some people hear them. some do not. You cannot measure them any different or within margin. Even if it is placebo you still enjoy it so who is to tell us? It is a stupid argument had 10 million times and we really should not here resulting in another lock. Please.

That is it. the PRAT on this. Just toe tapping fun. Agreed, my sr009 all the way up to my HE1 are way better headphones but it is if you like Baskin robbins and not Gellato so be it. There are good reasons someone might. Who is to argue on that either. these are my favorite headphone I ever heard. Ordered multiple backups last night in fact. You should go with what you like. I mean I wear wrangler. Certainly I could wear Japanese Denim but I prefer Wrangler. That is all. You can't fault me for that. If you want a Technical headphone look elsewhere! Even for less money HD800S will allow more clarity, better imaging placement etc. These are like being at a good ol fiddle concert. Oh you can listen to anything you prefer on these but they will process everything the same way. They are something totally different than the HD800S and Even PS2KE. They kind of stand alone. That is what to me, is so special about them. Not even close to the "best" depending on how you define best. They just have something I cannot put my finger on. Like lotsa ooy gooey hot Taffy. Not veiled though. I heard them first broken in with several high end silver cables also broken in and I just smiled. I put on the HE1 and the look on my face shall be stern and serious. grinning from ear to ear goes a long way. Kind of like when you got your first good Turntable. They just touch you deep inside. I am by no means selling my fortune worth of equipment but these are hanging next to me bed and these only. I think that says enough. You want a "better" headphone? You can get it for less so do not even bother with these. I say your loss.

I have tried copper OCC. I thought a Hybrid was going to be best. Nope. Just the most silver weight you can afford. Not grid lines lol. Do you know how much those weigh silly? Most would not put up with my Crystal cable scrap. 2 Meters must weigh 3KG and it is so stiff even if you could bend it with your bare hands it would probably snap. That is not what you need. I highly recommend the Axios AG but I understand about the price. Otherwise if you do not need locking I am telling you check out Dyson. I have nothing to do with him other than dumbfounded how he can build what he does for the price. You may find cheaper but not the quality as well. there are a lot of companies making fine cables but they are all more money. Anyways your taste may differ but I feel these need silver and a lot of it. Be sure to ask the silver weight when ordering a cable. This Crystal has about a whopping 6OZ per Meter but it unmanageable. Plus to get the actual cable to hack up and the connectors you are looking at 41+ grand lol. Remember, I had scrap. I did not even pay for the connectors.

 

[pietcux]

If anyone is interested in science behind audio production I can recommend: The Art of Sound Reproduction.
It details the science on skin effect (forgot to include that above), materials, braiding, shielding, balancing... it's 20 yo but still relevant.

Quite funny that the speaker cable section starts on page 187 with:
The subject of loudspeaker cables is almost guaranteed to spark a heated debate in which the laws of physics are temporarily set aside to improve the spectacle. This author frankly has no time for such theatricalities and prefers to cling to reality. The job of a loudspeaker cable is simply to deliver electricity from an amplifier to a loudspeaker. It is undeniable that the cable is in series with the signal path, and could in principle affect the sound quality, but in practice the losses are dwarfed by shortcomings elsewhere. Clearly a real cable will have resistance, inductance and capacitance and so it is hardly surprising that the waveform at the amplifier end will be slightly different to that at the speaker end. Obviously this difference can be minimized by the use of a sufficiently heavy conductor cross-section to make the series resistance low.

https://www.innerfidelity.com/content/headphone-cable-measurements-part-one
https://www.innerfidelity.com/content/headphone-cable-measurements-wrap

 

[pietcux]

Some people hear them. some do not. You cannot measure them any different or within margin. Even if it is placebo you still enjoy it so who is to tell us? It is a stupid argument had 10 million times and we really should not here resulting in another lock. Please.

That is it. the PRAT on this. Just toe tapping fun. Agreed, my sr009 all the way up to my HE1 are way better headphones but it is if you like Baskin robbins and not Gellato so be it. There are good reasons someone might. Who is to argue on that either. these are my favorite headphone I ever heard. Ordered multiple backups last night in fact. You should go with what you like. I mean I wear wrangler. Certainly I could wear Japanese Denim but I prefer Wrangler. That is all. You can't fault me for that. If you want a Technical headphone look elsewhere! Even for less money HD800S will allow more clarity, better imaging placement etc. These are like being at a good ol fiddle concert. Oh you can listen to anything you prefer on these but they will process everything the same way. They are something totally different than the HD800S and Even PS2KE. They kind of stand alone. That is what to me, is so special about them. Not even close to the "best" depending on how you define best. They just have something I cannot put my finger on. Like lotsa ooy gooey hot Taffy. Not veiled though. I heard them first broken in with several high end silver cables also broken in and I just smiled. I put on the HE1 and the look on my face shall be stern and serious. grinning from ear to ear goes a long way. Kind of like when you got your first good Turntable. They just touch you deep inside. I am by no means selling my fortune worth of equipment but these are hanging next to me bed and these only. I think that says enough. You want a "better" headphone? You can get it for less so do not even bother with these. I say your loss.

I have tried copper OCC. I thought a Hybrid was going to be best. Nope. Just the most silver weight you can afford. Not grid lines lol. Do you know how much those weigh silly? Most would not put up with my Crystal cable scrap. 2 Meters must weigh 3KG and it is so stiff even if you could bend it with your bare hands it would probably snap. That is not what you need. I highly recommend the Axios AG but I understand about the price. Otherwise if you do not need locking I am telling you check out Dyson. I have nothing to do with him other than dumbfounded how he can build what he does for the price. You may find cheaper but not the quality as well. there are a lot of companies making fine cables but they are all more money. Anyways your taste may differ but I feel these need silver and a lot of it. Be sure to ask the silver weight when ordering a cable. This Crystal has about a whopping 6OZ per Meter but it unmanageable. Plus to get the actual cable to hack up and the connectors you are looking at 41+ grand lol. Remember, I had scrap. I did not even pay for the connectors.

My only concern, with all respect to you liking the same headphone that I like most, is that we are no longer talking about the headphone, how it sounds and so on, we only see endless walls of text posts about cable that change the sound that I like some much to something a little different. And you are only warming up I guess. The same effect or even a greater effect has a different source. Why do we always see endless talks about cable? It is about the music in the end, not the cable.

 

[music_man]

First, I apologize. I got carried away. True, source will change the sound even more. The reason it matters to me is because I want to maximize this sound. I love it. I am trying to build upon it not change it. Certainly not. I agree this thread is about the headphone and will try to limit talk about other things. However the headphone does nothing without upstream gear? I still understand this was meant to be just about the headphone. I am also sorry for the way I type. I have Parkinson's but it is still no excuse for a man that has a Doctorate. I just kind of forget what I am doing but still no excuse. My apologies to everyone.

Just one thing: I am extremely surprised Tyll did not entirely bash cable. He just went a notch up on my respect meter. I still maintain with these headphones something was wrong. Or he just did not like them which is completely understandable. These are like Grado really. Love them or hate them. If you are in between I see you not picking these up much then. I said nothing bad about Tyll, even complimented him. So no need for bad words exchanged, okay?

 

[pietcux]

First, I apologize. I got carried away. True, source will change the sound even more. The reason it matters to me is because I want to maximize this sound. I love it. I am trying to build upon it not change it. Certainly not. I agree this thread is about the headphone and will try to limit talk about other things. However the headphone does nothing without upstream gear? I still understand this was meant to be just about the headphone. I am also sorry for the way I type. I have Parkinson's but it is still no excuse for a man that has a Doctorate. I just kind of forget what I am doing but still no excuse. My apologies to everyone.

Just one thing: I am extremely surprised Tyll did not entirely bash cable. He just went a notch up on my respect meter. I still maintain with these headphones something was wrong. Or he just did not like them which is completely understandable. These are like Grado really. Love them or hate them. If you are in between I see you not picking these up much then. I said nothing bad about Tyll, even complimented him. So no need for bad words exchanged, okay?

All is good.

 

[raybies]