[The Walrus]

  Having no hiss is easy to do - all you need is not to have any real power and gain. It is where you want power and gain while still trying to be hiss free that is difficult. That's just pure physics and electronics.

So, let's say I set my amp to high gain. Does it mean that I will get more hiss than low gain (provided the volume from my headphones is matched in both scenarios more or less) ?

 

[gerelmx1986]

cannot be unheard!
but some don't care as much as I do(lucky them). on classical music the background noise of the recording itself is often the loudest thing in fact, and on a few really old recordings, it's the noise from the media itself that survived the transfer to digital. hiss is always somewhere. the question really is, when do I hear it with my headphone?
me being a maniac about it, I tend to be amazed that people can focus so much on highres and some possible improvements after - 96db, when the hiss if audible is usually around -60db or louder(compared to the loudest sound and avoiding a few masking rules). so if I have a clean 16/44 track on a clean source versus a 24/196on a source with audible hiss, I have effectively much higher resolution on the 16/44. 
 
 I can't help but wonder why hiss is still accepted by audiophiles.
being scared by some jitter making -120db noise when there is one clearly audible made by the amp's output? and pretty much all the false problems we argue about on headfi are below -80db and would fail to be identified in a blind test. 
but hiss, it seems like it's ok, always, and people will tell you to buy the next FOTM they tried, and will forget to tell you that they then needed a shiit wyrd to reduce the noise a little, and that they needed to add an external amp or avoid some IEMs. I know that I talk about it too much, but I also know that others don't talk about it enough. we must have been well trained by vinyls to pretend that noise isn't an audio defect.
 
and here I go again ^_^. I just can't keep my cool when talking about noise

LOL agree with you on the clean 16/44.1 vs "dirty" 24/192Khz... not always 24 bit means better sounding

 

[ClieOS]

 
that much is perfectly understandable. you will tend to look for a lot of power and gain only when using a less efficient headphone. so we mostly end up in a nice equilibrium most of the times.
 
but on all the gears that have not much power or gain to begin with, like smartphones or ... IDK... the A10? ^_^  those stuff seem to be clearly made for efficient IEMs (intuitively at least). yet it's not. it would probably sound cleaner into a nad hp50 or a senheiser urbanite and those kind of easy to drive yet not too sensitive headphones, instead of most ultra sensitive IEMs. because of that annoying default noise that doesn't really go down with the volume setting.
the X1 has more power and gain than the A10 but hisses a lot less into sensitive IEMs like a se535. so it's not a fatality, some people know how to do it right.
 
but again even with something as limited as the A10, we can still find many IEMs and headphones that are driven correctly, but are not so efficient as to make that noise audible. so the problem isn't really the noise or how loud it is. to me the problem is that the manufacturers don't try to give tools for the consumer to know what headphones would best go with the device.
 
if I was a trendy and involved reviewer(that must be so much work!!!) I would make up some DAP chart of everything I get my hands on, with some uncalibrated relative value of noise recorded from all DAPs into a very sensitive IEM, with volume level matched at normal levels into the IEM.  to be able to say, "that damn studioV was hissing 15db louder than a X1" or something like that ^_^.
so that when people have a DAP and notice hiss problem but want to keep their IEM, they could check that crap chart and at least avoid those with an even greater noise.
 
ok I just wrote on the top of my head following a flow of ideas, but I guess that could actually be kind of useful to make something like that, given that IEMs and headphones are more and more sensitive every year.
who gets to try loads of DAPs and wishes to waste his entire life doing some silly measurements aside from reviewing the DAPs? 

 

 
Now things like smartphone is not a 'typical' implementation for SQ. It has components that purposefully meant to shot out strong radio wave, and therefore it will always have a relatively high noise floor. However, it is not to say that will always be the case. iPhone, for an example, doesn't really have much problem with noise - that's because they take that into the consideration when designing the audio circuit to filter out these noise. While it is far from best of the best, you can argue that iPhone has objective measurement that beats many DAP. Other smartphone maker on the other hand are often just too lazy to pay attention to SQ on the headphone-out, so they don't really counted. Things like A10 is another matter. It is mainly a result of trying to save cost and extend battery life by purposefully lowering the SNR of the output stage, thus increasing hiss and lowering SQ. That's not just having no real power, but actually cutting into SQ in exchange for other 'more marketable' features, and the sad truth is that many of A10 series buyer will unlikely to be able to tell a difference or simply won't care (and that's probably what Sony is counting on). In comparison, FiiO will never be able to get away from these kind of things because a large portion of  their customer are audiophile, plus they are in a rather niche market with stiff competitions and much smaller profit margin. They just can't afford not to get things right.
 
 
Actually a properly done measurement would have tell you a lot about how hissy an DAP is. It is not difficult to do but it is just too costly (both time and testing equipment wise) for anyone to take on the job.
 

  So, let's say I set my amp to high gain. Does it mean that I will get more hiss than low gain (provided the volume from my headphones is matched in both scenarios more or less) ?

 
If everything else is the same, then yes.

 

[castleofargh]

thanks, that's informative.
well I'm glad the A10 exists as it is, I've been in need something like that for years and find it great for most of my outdoor time. but yeah I had no illusion about audio in such a small and long lasting DAP(in fact it's better than what I expected).
if that was so easy I would really wonder what all the hifi bricks are on about ^_^.

 

[Jackson 6]

Never heard any hiss at all on my A10. Perhaps it's tuned for hi end sony 'phones and IEM's, or even middle end sony 'phones as I've discovered with my zx 700.

 

[Hinomotocho]

Can anyone compare the A15 with the xperia Z3 tablet? I have the Sony A846 and was wondering if it was worth upgrading to the A15. I use the iBasso d-zero mk2 with the Z3 tablet, but I am also quite happy with the quality of the headphone out of the tablet.

 

[god-bluff]

Can anyone compare the A15 with the xperia Z3 tablet? I have the Sony A846 and was wondering if it was worth upgrading to the A15. I use the iBasso d-zero mk2 with the Z3 tablet, but I am also quite happy with the quality of the headphone out of the tablet.

The z3 tablet is somewhat bigger & would require large pockets.

 

[castleofargh]

 

Can anyone compare the A15 with the xperia Z3 tablet? I have the Sony A846 and was wondering if it was worth upgrading to the A15. I use the iBasso d-zero mk2 with the Z3 tablet, but I am also quite happy with the quality of the headphone out of the tablet.

The z3 tablet is somewhat bigger & would require large pockets.

he has one so I suspect he knows ^_^.
 
@beninn the A10series brings you highrez if you're into that. but also flac and a few other formats(I don't remember the A846 playing flac, but I may be wrong). and of course the µSD slot could make a difference if you're into massive libraries on the go.
for the audio differences, TBH they're real small. so while it may be important to some, I don't believe sound alone justifies the upgrade.

 

[The Walrus]

I need a lesson on S/N ratio.
I'm not interested in the amp section of A10. (I only listen to it with IEM and on the go, so hiss and S/N do not have to be stellar.)
If I didn't understand wrong, what you'r saying, @ClieOS is that when I connect A10 to my E12 via LOD, if I chose low gain, then there would be less hiss?? (Yes, when I switch to low gain I do not hear the hiss) Does that mean that I'm better off with low gain and I get a better S/N ratio? 
I want to get the best of A10 SQ wise. So far, A10 > LOD > E12 low gain seems to work OK.  
Now, do I have a setup that is in the league of those hifi bricks as @castleofargh put it or not? 

 

[Hinomotocho]

 
he has one so I suspect he knows ^_^.
 
@beninn the A10series brings you highrez if you're into that. but also flac and a few other formats(I don't remember the A846 playing flac, but I may be wrong). and of course the µSD slot could make a difference if you're into massive libraries on the go.
for the audio differences, TBH they're real small. so while it may be important to some, I don't believe sound alone justifies the upgrade.

Thank you. No, the A846 doesn't play flac, I am running out of space, and would benefit from a longer battery life - so the A15 would definitely be a huge upgrade. Most of all a noticeable improvement in sound would really justify the $$, but on some recent pages of this thread there have been some comments that seemed to have downplayed the audio quality that has made me hesitant. There are some purchases I've made where I feel the supposed audio upgrade was not worth the money spent.

 

[gerelmx1986]

  Never heard any hiss at all on my A10. Perhaps it's tuned for hi end sony 'phones and IEM's, or even middle end sony 'phones as I've discovered with my zx 700.

Perhaps I have hogh-end sony phones and IEMs and none of them hiss, tough I haven't teste other headphones/iems

 

[gerelmx1986]

Can anyone compare the A15 with the xperia Z3 tablet? I have the Sony A846 and was wondering if it was worth upgrading to the A15. I use the iBasso d-zero mk2 with the Z3 tablet, but I am also quite happy with the quality of the headphone out of the tablet.

The A846 is an older model, that didn't support flac, mmm the A10 gives you hi-res and flac, aside from microSD storage up to 128GB (possibly sooner 200GB)

 

[purk]

Can anyone compare the A15 with the xperia Z3 tablet? I have the Sony A846 and was wondering if it was worth upgrading to the A15. I use the iBasso d-zero mk2 with the Z3 tablet, but I am also quite happy with the quality of the headphone out of the tablet.

For the price of the A15/A17, it is a worth while upgrade over the A856.  I have the A867 which doesn't play flac but does play Atrac Lossless and I do prefer the sound of the A17 slightly over all.  I do miss all the functionality and touch screen goodness of A867 however.

 

[castleofargh]

 

Can anyone compare the A15 with the xperia Z3 tablet? I have the Sony A846 and was wondering if it was worth upgrading to the A15. I use the iBasso d-zero mk2 with the Z3 tablet, but I am also quite happy with the quality of the headphone out of the tablet.

For the price of the A15/A17, it is a worth while upgrade over the A856.  I have the A867 which doesn't play flac but does play Atrac Lossless and I do prefer the sound of the A17 slightly over all.  I do miss all the functionality and touch screen goodness of A867 however.

they see me scrollin,
they hatin...
I've given away most of my DAPs, but I've kept one A867. it's really a nice toy.

 

[gerelmx1986]

I will do a chronometer test upon arriving from work... fiio x3 1st gen vs A17 buil whole library wit a filled 128GB card, fiio x3 has internal memory empty I think and the sony will be filled