[audioxxx]

From my observations the line out is cleaner output, and offers better sound quality than the headphone output, when run into an amplifier.

 

[Sonic Defender]

 

 

From my observations the line out is cleaner output, and offers better sound quality than the headphone output, when run into an amplifier.

Get some help and do some blind listening tests to confirm this. I am going to try with the help of my friend as soon as I can.

 

[jmsaxon69]

I don;t understand how someone could think the amplified out is going to be better in a low level situation than the low level output? You are double amping with the amp'ed out, that's why they make the low level out adapter....

 

[The Walrus]

  I don;t understand how someone could think the amplified out is going to be better in a low level situation than the low level output? You are double amping with the amp'ed out, that's why they make the low level out adapter....

I don't think the double-amping is that clear-cut in this case. Sony uses the S-Master chipset, so no specific DAC chip. Maybe someone with better understanding of A10's design can help, but where does the DAC end and where does the amp begin? That always puzzled me.
After all, the EQ shouldn't work with the line out, but it does!  

 

[gerelmx1986]

From my observations the line out is cleaner output, and offers better sound quality than the headphone output, when run into an amplifier.

Had the same perception when using my bose soundodck and became more clear in the car stereo, yes in the car stereo in a noisy road i could distinguish that

 

[ClieOS]

  I don't think the double-amping is that clear-cut in this case. Sony uses the S-Master chipset, so no specific DAC chip. Maybe someone with better understanding of A10's design can help, but where does the DAC end and where does the amp begin? That always puzzled me.
After all, the EQ shouldn't work with the line out, but it does!  

S-Master is just an invented word for software processing from Sony, nothing more than marketing. There is nothing ambiguous about where the DAC ends and where the analog stage begins if you take a close look at the chip deep into its topology. Of course, Sony isn't going to reveal its trade secret for us any time soon.  The EQ works on line-out because it applies in the digital domain directly to the data stream before it reaches the DAC. Like any kind of software manipulate, it degrades the SQ in exchange of user tweakability - nothing ambiguous about that either. In the case of A10 series, I do think the software EQ has done more damage to the overall SQ than double amping. One of the clear evidence is the noticeable increase of hiss once you activate the EQ.
 
p/s: I'll try to measure line-out vs. headphone-out, plus EQ on/off when I have the time.

 

[Sonic Defender]

  I don;t understand how someone could think the amplified out is going to be better in a low level situation than the low level output? You are double amping with the amp'ed out, that's why they make the low level out adapter....

I'm sure there is a difference, but does that mean audible difference? I haven't tested yet, but I have heard both LO and HO with the E12 and I can't say I noticed anything sound quality wise, but perhaps when I actually test I might?

 

[jmsaxon69]

S-Master is just an invented word for software processing from Sony, nothing more than marketing. There is nothing ambiguous about where the DAC ends and where the analog stage begins if you take a close look at the chip deep into its topology. Of course, Sony isn't going to reveal its trade secret for us any time soon.  The EQ works on line-out because it applies in the digital domain directly to the data stream before it reaches the DAC. Like any kind of software manipulate, it degrades the SQ in exchange of user tweakability - nothing ambiguous about that either. In the case of A10 series, I do think the software EQ has done more damage to the overall SQ than double amping. One of the clear evidence is the noticeable increase of hiss once you activate the EQ.

p/s: I'll try to measure line-out vs. headphone-out, plus EQ on/off when I have the time.

My God one of the most intelligent posts I've read in a LONG time! Now I'm sure someone will argue with you about it! Haha!

 

[The Walrus]

 
S-Master is just an invented word for software processing from Sony, nothing more than marketing. There is nothing ambiguous about where the DAC ends and where the analog stage begins if you take a close look at the chip deep into its topology. Of course, Sony isn't going to reveal its trade secret for us any time soon.  The EQ works on line-out because it applies in the digital domain directly to the data stream before it reaches the DAC. Like any kind of software manipulate, it degrades the SQ in exchange of user tweakability - nothing ambiguous about that either. In the case of A10 series, I do think the software EQ has done more damage to the overall SQ than double amping. One of the clear evidence is the noticeable increase of hiss once you activate the EQ.
 
p/s: I'll try to measure line-out vs. headphone-out, plus EQ on/off when I have the time.

I see. A follow up question: Why is walkmans' lineout level that low? What is the difference (as far as internal design goes) between X1 and A17 to cause that? 

 

[ClieOS]

  I see. A follow up question: Why is walkmans' lineout level that low? What is the difference (as far as internal design goes) between X1 and A17 to cause that? 

 
There is no universally recognized standard of line-out voltage. However, for a good while most (or maybe just some of the major) chip maker and audio gear manufacturers agree that 2Vrms is a good voltage to use on desktop / main powered audio gears. However, due to the limitation of battery voltage, portable gears can't generate that high a line-out voltage (*as a rule, the analog output voltage can never be higher than the power supply voltage). To generate higher voltage, you need to include an extra step-up circuit to pump the battery voltage up first, which means you will get shorter battery life (and that's the case of X1). So those DAP maker that wants to keep their battery life as long as possible will do the opposite, by lower the voltage as low as they can get away from (and that's the case of Walkman in general).
 
There is no free lunch, so to speak. You pump up the voltage and you can get better SQ but lower battery life, or you lower the voltage for longer battery life but lesser SQ. It all depends on what your priority is.

 

[The Walrus]

   
There is no universally recognized standard of line-out voltage. However, for a good while most (or maybe just some of the major) chip maker and audio gear manufacturers agree that 2Vrms is a good voltage to use on desktop / main powered audio gears. However, due to the limitation of battery voltage, portable gears can't generate that high a line-out voltage (*as a rule, the analog output voltage can never be higher than the power supply voltage). To generate higher voltage, you need to include an extra step-up circuit to pump the battery voltage up first, which means you will get shorter battery life (and that's the case of X1). So those DAP maker that wants to keep their battery life as long as possible will do the opposite, by lower the voltage as low as they can get away from (and that's the case of Walkman in general).
 
There is no free lunch, so to speak. You pump up the voltage and you can get better SQ but lower battery life, or you lower the voltage for longer battery life but lesser SQ. It all depends on what your priority is.

That was very helpful. Thank you very much. 

 

[spatzi]

Trying out the dsxee function on MP3. makes everything clearly sound worse. I don't understand the point of it.

 

[fish1050]

From my observations the line out is cleaner output, and offers better sound quality than the headphone output, when run into an amplifier.

I was using mine with an L5 lod cable and after it broke I switched to the headphone out.  I personally can't tell the difference line out vs headphone out with the stock headphone outcable that came with my E11K. But when I switched to a high quality  L16 headphone out cable I found the sound cleaner, louder and more detailed.
 
Headphones used will also be a big factor in determining if you can hear a difference or not
 
I find the headphone out connection a lot solider than using the LOD cable. I also like that I never have to unplug the A17 from the amp when charging or transferring songs
 
I have two USB chargers so I can listen to my A17 and E11K together while charging both when I use the headphone out. 
 
To me the convenience of using the headphone out outweighs any miniscule difference that may or may not exist in sound quality.

 

[gerelmx1986]

Trying out the dsxee function on MP3. makes everything clearly sound worse. I don't understand the point of it.

Because MP3 is already bad-sounding, mp3 is an approximation, FLAC is unpacking data and playing back the original

 

[fish1050]

If Line Out is such a great feature on the A17 then why does Sony not even mention it as a feature of the player?  I only found out Sony offers line out on their players when I bought my Fiio E11 and the sales guy asked me if I wanted an L5 LOD cable. 
 
Every other DAP manufacturer that offers Line Out touts it as a feature of their players with instructions on how to use the line out feature. 
 
The Sony amp in the A17 is a low power output class D amp (digital).  I can't see how double amping a digital amp at this low output level could make any real difference in sound quality!
 
I keep the volume on the A17 at 20 and use my E11K to make all volume adjustments.  I find the sound very clean and clear with lots of detail.  If you crank the A17 to 30 and then double amp then maybe you might hear a difference. 
 
Always keep the placebo affect in mind.  If you expect to hear a difference then you will trick yourself into hearing a difference.