[rkt31]

It didn't help....

"So delta Sigma dac somehow removes the harmonic content of music and r2r dacs retain that content. R2r dacs have some natural grain and delta Sigma removes that natural grain " because R2r dac has no digital processing even when it does oversampling.

 

[sajunky]

"So delta Sigma dac somehow removes the harmonic content of music and r2r dacs retain that content. R2r dacs have some natural grain and delta Sigma removes that natural grain " because R2r dac has no digital processing even when it does oversampling.

Whether harmonics are removed or produce false harmonics is debatable. It definitely removes reverbations on a decay. As for digital processing in R2R DACs, I wrote already, it is good if user have a choice.

Other than the above, I gave you a clue regarding noise shaping, you didn't pick it up.

 

[rkt31]

Whether harmonics are removed or produce false harmonics is debatable. It definitely removes reverbations on a decay. As for digital processing in R2R DACs, I wrote already, it is good if user have a choice.

Other than the above, I gave you a clue regarding noise shaping, you didn't pick it up.

Why are you giving clues ? As per you ds dac uses noise shaping so sounds off and r2r dac does not use noise shaping so sounds better , isn't it ? During the whole discussion I just wanted to say that major chunk r2r dacs use oversampling(like yggy), only few are nos and still fewer have choice of nos or os. So if r2r dacs using oversampling which is digital processing, then your point of r2r vs ds dac due to noise shaping may not be correct. Any digital processing invariably uses dither and noise shaping because if you don't there will be errors. Your yggy dac uses sharc chip for oversampling which has 32bit float processing ie any 16bit 44.1khz input will be processed by chip to oversample upto 354.8khz (8x) using 32bit maths and since multi bit dac chip in yggy accepts 20bit word so the resulting 32bit word has to be converted to 20bit. One option is to simply discard last 12 bits (worse) or use dither with noise shaping to extract some low level information from last 12 bits by randomizing the rounding errors, before chopping of those last 12 bits. Noise shaping and dither is integral part of digital processing.

Whether harmonics are removed or produce false harmonics is debatable. It definitely removes reverbations on a decay.

So you mean to say ds dac modifies the music content itself ? A 1khz tone is converted into 999.999 khz tone or 1000.005 khz tone ? . Those tall grass of harmonics produced by r2r dacs in 1khz tone test were originally the part of 1khz tone and ds dac somehow removes those grass of harmonics of 1khz which were the part of 1khz tone ?

 

[sajunky]

@rkt31. I can be wrong in not giving you any clue, but It is nice to see noise shaping added to your vocabulary.

 

[Baten]

So you mean to say ds dac modifies the music content itself ? A 1khz tone is converted into 999.999 khz tone or 1000.005 khz tone ? . Those tall grass of harmonics produced by r2r dacs in 1khz tone test were originally the part of 1khz tone and ds dac somehow removes those grass of harmonics of 1khz which were the part of 1khz tone ?

all these emojis convinced me, I'm buying a soekris 2541

 

[rkt31]

@rkt31. I can be wrong in not giving you any clue, but It is nice to see noise shaping added to your vocabulary.

So as per you (1) still dither is not required in digital processing since audio is pre dithered (2) oversampling is magically done in r2r dacs without any digital processing. (3) noise shaping is not just a type of dither . Surprisingly for an engineer you are evading these issues by not posting anything about your theories. Comon be brave and show your expertise in replying itemwise for above points instead of tangential replies, or even gracefully leave the discussion

all these emojis convinced me, I'm buying a soekris 2541

Oversampling filter and dithering has literally nothing to do with each other, the burrito thing does zero dithering

Meanwhile did you find anything in your support ?

 

[Baten]

Meanwhile did you find anything in your support ?

This is the Soekris thread though. If you feed it 24-bit 44kHz/48kHz data, doesn't it just get oversampled? No noise shaping?

in any case the Soekris also has head-amp, balanced head-amp and hardware crossfeed. I like that.

 

[sajunky]

So you mean to say ds dac modifies the music content itself ? A 1khz tone is converted into 999.999 khz tone or 1000.005 khz tone ? . Those tall grass of harmonics produced by r2r dacs in 1khz tone test were originally the part of 1khz tone and ds dac somehow removes those grass of harmonics of 1khz which were the part of 1khz tone ?

This is dynamic issue, not a response to the static sinewave (or a few). I give you an example with piano. Sound has three stages:

1. Hammer hit set of strings (3 maximum). Each string is divided in two non-equal parts, each one produce sound of two different and distant frequences with their own harmonics which is not controled by design, as this stage lasts very short time. We are aware of a completely wrong, distorted sound, but perceive it as a pleasant colouration to the sound that comes after.

2. Hammer bounces back and each string start to resonate at a full lenght, but deformation cause that pitch is higher than piano was tuned for. There is also a dissonance between different strings as they were hit with not equal force. A pitch is changing constantly alligning to the base frequency of each string.

3. During a second stage of a decay observed in previous stage, tone of all strings start to synchronise together (sound becomes tuned to a single base frequency), but it is a complex process, going through the multiple transformations. Resonation from a body comes to the effect and if pedal is pressed, it is observed interaction with all other strings.

I hear all these stages on my Audio GD R2R-11. DS converters tend to expand first two stages, maintaining dissonant sound over longer time. It is how DS converter alter the sound, I call it producing false harmonics, it may be a better term. This type of alternation to the sound cause fatigue after couple minutes. On the Topping D30 (which is extreme case) dissonant sound lasts to the end, stage three is not observed.

 

[rkt31]

This is dynamic issue, not a response to the static sinewave (or a few). I give you an example with piano. Sound has three stages:

1. Hammer hit set of strings (3 maximum). Each string is divided in two non-equal parts, each one produce sound of two different and distant frequences with their own harmonics which is not controled by design, as this stage lasts very short time. We are aware of a completely wrong, distorted sound, but perceive it as a pleasant colouration to the sound that comes after.

2. Hammer bounces back and each string start to resonate at a full lenght, but deformation cause that pitch is higher than piano was tuned for. There is also a dissonance between different strings as they were hit with not equal force. A pitch is changing constantly alligning to the base frequency of each string.

3. During a second stage of a decay observed in previous stage, tone of all strings start to synchronise together (sound becomes tuned to a single base frequency), but it is a complex process, going through the multiple transformations. Resonation from a body comes to the effect and if pedal is pressed, it is observed interaction with all other strings.

I hear all these stages on my Audio GD R2R-11. DS converters tend to expand first two stages, maintaining dissonant sound over longer time. It is how DS converter alter the sound, I call it producing false harmonics, it may be a better term. This type of alternation to the sound cause fatigue after couple minutes. On the Topping D30 (which is extreme case) dissonant sound lasts to the end, stage three is not observed.

Dac's job is to reproduce what was recorded. If the dac is producing more distortion then it will affect the original recorded sound. If you don't believe in the results of single tone test and say r2r dac though producing more distortion in single tone test but somehow magically produces less distortion in dynamic situation , or even ds dac somehow magically removes the harmonic content of music, then I don't need to say anything. But my earnest request is to post something concrete or else please avoid propagating false claims about superiority of r2r dacs. Btw did you hear about 32 tone test ? Why r2r dacs perform poorly in this test along with single tone test ? Isn't 32 tone test is akin to real life situation of complex music ? Or even tell in which test r2r dac is superior ?

This is the Soekris thread though. If you feed it 24-bit 44kHz/48kHz data, doesn't it just get oversampled? No noise shaping?

in any case the Soekris also has head-amp, balanced head-amp and hardware crossfeed. I like that.

Please excuse me. I don't have to repeat again and again that oversampling can't be done without digital processing. Digital processing is always done in higher bit accuracy than in original to retain the minimum required usable bits of original files. And to get to original bits from higher bits you need dithering almost always with noise shaping or else you would end up with errors. If you have anything to show that one can magically oversample a 24bit 48khz file without digital processing of any sort, then please show. Ps- please go through my earlier posts.all this started when sajunky mentioned about dsp in ds dacs. My only point is that even in r2r dacs with oversampling you can't avoid dsp. Hope you understand it in a positive way

 

[sajunky]

Good bye.

 

[Fegefeuer]

"how to crap up a thread through being full of yourself, lacking self awareness and make nobody listen to you what you have to say because of emojical diarrhea" - a guide by RKT31

 

[Baten]

"how to crap up a thread through being full of yourself, lacking self awareness and make nobody listen to you what you have to say because of emojical diarrhea" - a guide by RKT31

Not to mention fairly off-topic :/

 

[rkt31]

"how to crap up a thread through being full of yourself, lacking self awareness and make nobody listen to you what you have to say because of emojical diarrhea" - a guide by RKT31

So you also think that r2r dacs are superior and don't need any digital processing even when oversampling.

Not to mention fairly off-topic :/

Better to post something in support of your claims first. All my posts are in response to what sajunky claimed.

 

[Fegefeuer]

So you also think that r2r dacs are superior and don't need any digital processing even when oversampling.

 

[rasmushorn]

I had the Soekris dac1101 on loan for a while back I 2016 to write a review of it. I was very impressed by it back then. Now my old trusted Meier Daccord is faulty and I am looking for a new dac to replace it. I wish there was a way to try the dac1421 before a purchase, but they are probably not in any stores?

I can imagine that the products have evolved even more since the dac1101 and now with fully balanced option as well. How about the dac? Is it still the same dac-performance in the dac1421 today or has that also evolved?