Gotcha... Is there a certain scene (time) that the distortion stands out in? I'm can try it for when I get home... Though I bet most people on this thread have the movie as well.
Smyth Research Realiser A16
Can’t give a precise time stamp but the first scene is where Matthew McConaughey is leaving his farm and is crying in his truck and then it goes to the rocket taking off.
The other scene is when the are going through the black hole. Distortion is noticeable in their voices during this scene.
I’m really hoping it’s a settings thing. I hooked up my JVC Exofield headphones and they had no issues in these scenes.
The other scene is when the are going through the black hole. Distortion is noticeable in their voices during this scene.
I’m really hoping it’s a settings thing. I hooked up my JVC Exofield headphones and they had no issues in these scenes.
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sander99
Headphoneus Supremus
If you set the gain switch (next to each volume knob, with setttings L, M, H) to a higher position then you can reach the same SPL level at a lower volume setting. I think it is best to have the A16 switched off when changing the gain setting, or at least unplug the headphones. And don't forget to lower the volume before using the new gain setting.
By doing this you can get a higher SPL before digital clipping occurs. Normally when digital clipping occurs the A16 will automatically lower the volume setting. Did you see this happening by any chance? This automatic lowering of the volume setting can be disabled in the settings if I am not mistaken. I would advice to never disable that.
Thank you. I will try that tomorrow.
Do you also experience distortion with the test music (that you can activate from the remote)? And did the manloud adjustment also sound a bit weird during adjustments? If so, you might have to send the unit back for the infamous "simple soldering fix", that's what happened in my case anyway (ended up costing another $500+ in shipping and taxes too). You would also need to try the optical output with an external DAC to make sure you're not hearing any issues that way.
audiohobbit
500+ Head-Fier
Distortion or overload of the headphones (membranes collide, danger of damage) with loud bass scenes in movies are something I immediately encountered using my first Realiser A8.
It's curious that others only very rarely complain about this. Maybe I listen to movies at higher levels? Since I can not measure the SPL in my ears, I could only say that I perceive it as loud as in a good cinema presentation (usually cinemas play not as loud as intended (Dolby Fader 7) because they fear customer complaints and/or many cinemas are underequipped with speakers esp. subwoofers).
I tried several headphones, endedn up with Audeze LCD2, but even those can distort, so I introduced subsonic filtering/highpass) for the headphone, i.e. below 30 Hz. I do this externally, at first i used an external speaker management system (Behringer DCX2496) but mine is damaged now, so I currently use my old Yamaha AVR for this and also to drive (not amp) two shakers, namely an "I-Beam" mounted to the back of my chair and the "Bassme" (french kickstarter project) that rests (connected to a bigger plastic plate to have more contact surface) on my chest.
Those shakers also need EQing, especially the I-Beam, which I also do with the Yamaha PEQs. Both I-Beam and Bassme have a lowpass, but at (don't have the exact numbers now) about 100-120 Hz.
I've no experience with other shakers, but the I-Beam and Bassme are capable to vibrate at those frequencies and you sense frequencies in your body as high as about 150-200 Hz one can even sense louder deep male voices in the chest for example, or the lower strings of normal (even acoustic) guitars. And this arrangement that I use is capable of transporting those subtle vibrations to my body.
The crucial thing here is, I think, that the path from the shaker to your body is as short as possible and contains as less dampening materials as possible. And it shouldn't go to your butt, but to the chest area.
Therefore I am always doubtful when I read about using "normal" shakers mounted to the bottom of a sofa in conncection with the Realiser. If you have real speakers and the higher bass tones are transported through the air and are loud enogh to excite your body(chest), than you can increase the lower bass/sub-bass with a normal shaker, but with headphones I think you'll miss something there.
With music I don't get these bass distortion/overload (only with special low bass titles, e.g. produced for Car Hifi). The reason I think is simple: In (stereo) music you only have 2 channels and 2 headphone membranes, but with surround, esp. Atmos etc. you can have 16 or 24 channels which all can transport the full bass spectrum but you still have only 2 headphone membranes, so they get overloaded.
After the LCD2 I encountered that IEMs can tolerate even more deep bass, so I use IEMs now (but even they can overload, so I still use a subsonic filter), and they also give me the feeling of not wearing a headphone at all, which is a pleasure compared to your head clamped into a massive headphone like an Audeze LCD2...
PS: A "good" (dangerous...) bass test is for example the THX-Trailer "Amzing Life": (don't actually use the youtube video, it's just to show you, you need to find the download OR you own Starwars Blurays, at least in my box (german edition) this trailer is at the end of the movies, Ep 4-6 I think).
In the YT video at 0:17 and especially starting at 0:25, the "drums", this played louder is really a heavy (and dangerous!!) test for deep loud movie bass!
Be careful with your equipment!!!
It's curious that others only very rarely complain about this. Maybe I listen to movies at higher levels? Since I can not measure the SPL in my ears, I could only say that I perceive it as loud as in a good cinema presentation (usually cinemas play not as loud as intended (Dolby Fader 7) because they fear customer complaints and/or many cinemas are underequipped with speakers esp. subwoofers).
I tried several headphones, endedn up with Audeze LCD2, but even those can distort, so I introduced subsonic filtering/highpass) for the headphone, i.e. below 30 Hz. I do this externally, at first i used an external speaker management system (Behringer DCX2496) but mine is damaged now, so I currently use my old Yamaha AVR for this and also to drive (not amp) two shakers, namely an "I-Beam" mounted to the back of my chair and the "Bassme" (french kickstarter project) that rests (connected to a bigger plastic plate to have more contact surface) on my chest.
Those shakers also need EQing, especially the I-Beam, which I also do with the Yamaha PEQs. Both I-Beam and Bassme have a lowpass, but at (don't have the exact numbers now) about 100-120 Hz.
I've no experience with other shakers, but the I-Beam and Bassme are capable to vibrate at those frequencies and you sense frequencies in your body as high as about 150-200 Hz one can even sense louder deep male voices in the chest for example, or the lower strings of normal (even acoustic) guitars. And this arrangement that I use is capable of transporting those subtle vibrations to my body.
The crucial thing here is, I think, that the path from the shaker to your body is as short as possible and contains as less dampening materials as possible. And it shouldn't go to your butt, but to the chest area.
Therefore I am always doubtful when I read about using "normal" shakers mounted to the bottom of a sofa in conncection with the Realiser. If you have real speakers and the higher bass tones are transported through the air and are loud enogh to excite your body(chest), than you can increase the lower bass/sub-bass with a normal shaker, but with headphones I think you'll miss something there.
With music I don't get these bass distortion/overload (only with special low bass titles, e.g. produced for Car Hifi). The reason I think is simple: In (stereo) music you only have 2 channels and 2 headphone membranes, but with surround, esp. Atmos etc. you can have 16 or 24 channels which all can transport the full bass spectrum but you still have only 2 headphone membranes, so they get overloaded.
After the LCD2 I encountered that IEMs can tolerate even more deep bass, so I use IEMs now (but even they can overload, so I still use a subsonic filter), and they also give me the feeling of not wearing a headphone at all, which is a pleasure compared to your head clamped into a massive headphone like an Audeze LCD2...
PS: A "good" (dangerous...) bass test is for example the THX-Trailer "Amzing Life": (don't actually use the youtube video, it's just to show you, you need to find the download OR you own Starwars Blurays, at least in my box (german edition) this trailer is at the end of the movies, Ep 4-6 I think).
In the YT video at 0:17 and especially starting at 0:25, the "drums", this played louder is really a heavy (and dangerous!!) test for deep loud movie bass!
Be careful with your equipment!!!
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phoenixdogfan
1000+ Head-Fier
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Think you are clipping digitally. All the correction and dsp the Realiser requires eats into your digital headroom. My suggestion is to turn off the LFE 10+ switch. There is another switch for bass level on the same page. Try setting it to +4 or +5 and see with that doesn't take care of most of the clipping, and allow you to turn your levels back up to "65". Ultimately, if you get an external amp, and it's powerful enough, you can make up for any gain restriction the A16 automatically imposes to adjust for digital clipping. Something like a Topping A90 D, or a Topping A70 Pro (my amp) are extremely powerful and may allow you to play as loud as your heart is content.
audiohobbit
500+ Head-Fier
No, no digitial clipping. In that case the A16 would turn the volume down by itself.
I do use an external amp (Lake People).
My connection scheme right now is A16 - SPDIF - Yamaga AVR - stereo cinch - Lake people amp.
I do the volume control with the Yamaha AVR. I set the volume of the A16 fixed to a level below clipping.
Believe me that what I encountered over the years is overload of the headphone drivers, they just can't handle this amount of bass.
Such scenes are even dangerous for huge subwoofers (I had two fridge sized 15" back then, when I still could be loud...)
The LFE+10 is difficult to set, but it's just the question yes or no, nothing between 0 and 10, because it is the just the question if the source does the LFE boost or the amp (in this case the A16) has to do it, because the LFE is stored with -10 dB to have more headroom. AV-Receivers do the LFE boost automatically, the A16 doesn't, because it also depends on the system with which the PRIR was made.
I do use an external amp (Lake People).
My connection scheme right now is A16 - SPDIF - Yamaga AVR - stereo cinch - Lake people amp.
I do the volume control with the Yamaha AVR. I set the volume of the A16 fixed to a level below clipping.
Believe me that what I encountered over the years is overload of the headphone drivers, they just can't handle this amount of bass.
Such scenes are even dangerous for huge subwoofers (I had two fridge sized 15" back then, when I still could be loud...)
The LFE+10 is difficult to set, but it's just the question yes or no, nothing between 0 and 10, because it is the just the question if the source does the LFE boost or the amp (in this case the A16) has to do it, because the LFE is stored with -10 dB to have more headroom. AV-Receivers do the LFE boost automatically, the A16 doesn't, because it also depends on the system with which the PRIR was made.
Andrew Seeley
100+ Head-Fier
Worth mentioning that for all the stats I've used, some prir captures do exhibit bass overabundance overload, even when the room is being played back in a balanced fashion (lfe+10 OFF, and with stereo and HPEQ enabled.. But that's from crummy stat amps. Larger stat amps would not distortion.
HD 800 does not exhibit any (distortions) from the bass. When played back in normal (reproduction settings).
The bass overload is not the headphone, but rather an electrostatic headphone system with one of the much poorer, or smaller electrostatic amplfiier/s, that were not designed to replicate such wonderful reproduction the realiser can convey by the elected (electrostat).
HD 800 IS great for the realiser. On a smaller amount the stats are good, but merely acceptable, on an absolute electrostatic measure. They really must have a big amp when rendering the bassy passages, or the bass room captures, or a bass-line heavy SW listening room.
HD 800 does not exhibit any (distortions) from the bass. When played back in normal (reproduction settings).
The bass overload is not the headphone, but rather an electrostatic headphone system with one of the much poorer, or smaller electrostatic amplfiier/s, that were not designed to replicate such wonderful reproduction the realiser can convey by the elected (electrostat).
HD 800 IS great for the realiser. On a smaller amount the stats are good, but merely acceptable, on an absolute electrostatic measure. They really must have a big amp when rendering the bassy passages, or the bass room captures, or a bass-line heavy SW listening room.
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If your cinemas are anything like the ones near me, that is VERY loud. I've never heard clipping from my A-16 and I use LFE+10. I've tried around eight different headphones with it. For movies, I usually have the A-16 volume around 70 and then make adjustments at my headphone amp.
Edit: I've tried four different electrostatics with the A-16 and have not had clipping with any of them. However, I do use a very powerful amp with them.
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I’ve been advised to play with the gain switch on the front of the unit. I will try that. I’m hoping it’s a settings issue. I use the realiser for movie watching only and if I can’t solve this issue, I will be returning it.
Andrew Seeley
100+ Head-Fier
Des511, I hope you'll get it figured out. You deserve the best experience possible.
Hopefully , and it sounds like your bass-overwhelm is potentially just a selected-setting problem. Hopefully, don't see how it wouldn't be on the HD 800
Settings all make a huge difference. The level of customizeability the realiser has is profound. I like the auro3d setting for upmixing music with with my own prirs.
The electrostatic bass problem would go away with a Gilmore Blue Hawaii or a larger amp, glad to hear Vandyman, it did seem obviously manageable, just by my observation. The Stax-srm T1 can't handle film-bass or the Perfect 2.0 channel or 13.1 Auromatic, for the matter) bass in some rooms at the volume levels I'd prefer. But with a more capable amp there would be no issue whatsoever..
@audiohobbit the cinema prir I made has perfect cinema bass in atmos for 12.1.10 or 15.1.8 orientations... It's among the most impressive and impactful bass results, in the larger room, I've found yet.
The subwoofer has to be mixed with each channel in order to get the multiplexed bass overload affect you've referred to. For example, in the theater, Dolby professionally calibrated my whole set up, so the result is perfect. At least when played for my ears *(the captured target)
Each speaker position is,was well angled compliments of the Atmos team, albeit of, in this theater, which I chose for the best size and proportion (for the placed channels and reverb).
Hopefully , and it sounds like your bass-overwhelm is potentially just a selected-setting problem. Hopefully, don't see how it wouldn't be on the HD 800
Settings all make a huge difference. The level of customizeability the realiser has is profound. I like the auro3d setting for upmixing music with with my own prirs.
The electrostatic bass problem would go away with a Gilmore Blue Hawaii or a larger amp, glad to hear Vandyman, it did seem obviously manageable, just by my observation. The Stax-srm T1 can't handle film-bass or the Perfect 2.0 channel or 13.1 Auromatic, for the matter) bass in some rooms at the volume levels I'd prefer. But with a more capable amp there would be no issue whatsoever..
@audiohobbit the cinema prir I made has perfect cinema bass in atmos for 12.1.10 or 15.1.8 orientations... It's among the most impressive and impactful bass results, in the larger room, I've found yet.
The subwoofer has to be mixed with each channel in order to get the multiplexed bass overload affect you've referred to. For example, in the theater, Dolby professionally calibrated my whole set up, so the result is perfect. At least when played for my ears *(the captured target)
Each speaker position is,was well angled compliments of the Atmos team, albeit of, in this theater, which I chose for the best size and proportion (for the placed channels and reverb).
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audiohobbit
500+ Head-Fier
Then either you have very good cinemas or you don't like it loud...
The complete audio chain in movie production (A-chain on the production side, B-chain on the cinema side) is calibrated to specific SPL levels. That is, when a cinema plays back (with a Dolby processor) at Dolby Fader Level 7. I know that many cinemas set the fader to lower settings because of complaints of customers...
I (and my cinema- and home-cinema enthusiastic friends) would sometimes complain that it's not loud enough...
In cinema the requirement for speakers is: Every channel (fronts, surrounds etc.) has to be capable of full-range 105 db (linear) undistorted playback at the "sweet spot". And the LFE subwoofers 115 dB between 20-120 Hz (or s.th. like that).
115 dB in the bass is not THAT much, your usual rock concert or club is louder! And since you have those levels more or less permanently there it is way more damaging to the ears than a movie, where you have such levels usually only in comparatively short action scenes. Most of the movie is dialog that plays in the 70-85 dB area.
Sanctuary
100+ Head-Fier
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Have any of you ever had any noise issues with your A16 from the headphone out jacks from the back, and if so, how did you resolve it? Both my previous unit, which was on the original hardware, and my newer one that uses the newer boards both produce a hum (like a street light) after I turn up my headphone amps after a certain point. With my DT1990s, it's only +3, with my HD800s, it's +10. Initially I thought it was just my solid state amp, then I thought it might be the cables, because whenever I actually pick the SS amp up and hold it in the air, at certain positions I can get the hum to stop.
So I tried an older tube amp, but it too has the same hum issue after a certain volume. I then tried both amps with an MP3 player, my A8 and another external audio device and none of them exhibited this hum. I've even tried plugging the A16 into a different outlet as well as moving as many cables away from it as I can, yet the issue still persists. It's only out of the RCA jacks from the back, and connecting headphones directly to the front jacks are noise free. I have not yet tried running a Y cable out of the front headphone jack, but this isn't how I want to use it anyway.
Was previously considering upgrading to another amp in the near future, but now I'm not sure. It really wouldn't be worth it if I'm going to get the same hum with a third amp. There's always the option of buying "better" RCA cables, but I've tried two different kinds: one on the thinner side, and one on the extremely thick side, and both sound the same. So I'm not sure if the A16 is either very sensitive to cable interference, or just has really poor RF shielding.
Ultimately I'm not even sure how much of a difference the amp really makes towards the overall sound either. I have my headphones connected to the amp, but if I need additional volume, I just turn up the A16 since it's more convenient than constantly having to adjust the knob of either of my amps. It would be nice to know that I can get a little more direct power though from either amp if I need it from the start.
So I tried an older tube amp, but it too has the same hum issue after a certain volume. I then tried both amps with an MP3 player, my A8 and another external audio device and none of them exhibited this hum. I've even tried plugging the A16 into a different outlet as well as moving as many cables away from it as I can, yet the issue still persists. It's only out of the RCA jacks from the back, and connecting headphones directly to the front jacks are noise free. I have not yet tried running a Y cable out of the front headphone jack, but this isn't how I want to use it anyway.
Was previously considering upgrading to another amp in the near future, but now I'm not sure. It really wouldn't be worth it if I'm going to get the same hum with a third amp. There's always the option of buying "better" RCA cables, but I've tried two different kinds: one on the thinner side, and one on the extremely thick side, and both sound the same. So I'm not sure if the A16 is either very sensitive to cable interference, or just has really poor RF shielding.
Ultimately I'm not even sure how much of a difference the amp really makes towards the overall sound either. I have my headphones connected to the amp, but if I need additional volume, I just turn up the A16 since it's more convenient than constantly having to adjust the knob of either of my amps. It would be nice to know that I can get a little more direct power though from either amp if I need it from the start.
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Andrew Seeley
100+ Head-Fier
@Sanctuary Nice(!), great to know others have experienced this.
I thought/figured it was just the sensitive topology of electrostatic amplifiers.
I'll test on my topping dx7 pro and let you know by pm if the HD 800 hums at ANY volume stage, or will post In here if it is not good.
The electrostatic amplfiers hum, yes the noise depends on the ratio of amp against realiser digital gain. I don't think it's the fault of the realiser in the Case of the T1.
@audiohobbit I sometimes like the loud level of the theater (in person) and sometimes don't just depends on the condition of mood and ears that day. I used to wear ear 3M silicone (not foam) plugs to theaters routinely. In fact I used to wear silicone earplugs everywhere outside the house! I miss those time's
@VandyMan
About 55-70 on the Realiser for me.
Increased realiser vol means no or much less T1 hum. It's just bass (and overall volume output resultingly, that suffers as a result of driving using the T1).
I thought/figured it was just the sensitive topology of electrostatic amplifiers.
I'll test on my topping dx7 pro and let you know by pm if the HD 800 hums at ANY volume stage, or will post In here if it is not good.
The electrostatic amplfiers hum, yes the noise depends on the ratio of amp against realiser digital gain. I don't think it's the fault of the realiser in the Case of the T1.
@audiohobbit I sometimes like the loud level of the theater (in person) and sometimes don't just depends on the condition of mood and ears that day. I used to wear ear 3M silicone (not foam) plugs to theaters routinely. In fact I used to wear silicone earplugs everywhere outside the house! I miss those time's
@VandyMan
About 55-70 on the Realiser for me.
Increased realiser vol means no or much less T1 hum. It's just bass (and overall volume output resultingly, that suffers as a result of driving using the T1).
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