[JonFo]

If you plan on measuring PRIRs or HPEQs, no, avoid 2.15 and go with the prior available older version.

Thanks, so 2.12 is OK?

Alos, it seems I should do a full factory restore moving from 1.8 to 2.x, right?

I gather the existing PRIRs and hpEQ files will work with 2.x, but I need to recreate rooms, etc., using them.

Is the CSV configurator process reliable for basic configuration with 2.12?
I have only a couple of rooms and two users.

The CSV approach is a major win for usability. If there is a relevant discussion of that in this thread, I'd welcome a link to it.

 

[sander99]

To be honest, you can achieve the same effect with proper mixing and mastering.

I don't understand what same effect are you talking about here?

(Music studio's are not going to mix and master using your personal hrtf to make it sound out-of-head over headphones for you...)

But of course I can understand the frustration about the other things.

 

[sander99]

@Ciggavelli:
I looked at some of your posts and I am guessing you have never heard the A16 with a personal measured PRIR. And hence, probably you have never really experienced what the A16 can do.

 

[dsperber]

Thanks, so 2.12 is OK?

Alos, it seems I should do a full factory restore moving from 1.8 to 2.x, right?

I gather the existing PRIRs and hpEQ files will work with 2.x, but I need to recreate rooms, etc., using them.

Is the CSV configurator process reliable for basic configuration with 2.12?
I have only a couple of rooms and two users.

The CSV approach is a major win for usability. If there is a relevant discussion of that in this thread, I'd welcome a link to it.

I explored the CSV approach back in July. This was also my motivation for upgrading from the 2.11 I'd been at until then, straight to 2.15 (bypassing 2.12 which was when CSV processing was first released). At that time I wrote THREE rather detailed and consecutive forum items about my experience and discoveries, which you can find starting with post #15,077.

I do not create my own new PRIR and HPEQ at this time, so I didn't discover the microphone imbalance others have reported with 2.15. I've had no problems USING 2.15 for listening through the same PRIR/HPEQ files I've always had.

Yes, a full factory reset will be required AFTER upgrading from 1.8 to 2.12. And then you'll have to rebuild all of your rooms, presets, etc.. And that is really where the CSV process helps out nicely.

JUST BE AWARE that if you have the Auro functionality present and enabled, Smyth made a very significant architectural change for Auro support in 2.15 from the initial Auro support as released in 2.11/2.12. Enabling/disabling/configuring Auro in 2.15 is now located inside your individual PRESET definitions (where it really belongs), rather than at the system level in "Misc Settings" where they first placed it in 2.11/2.12. Unfortunately they neglected to also update the CSV processor in 2.15 to correspond to this MAJOR change to Auro support..

So for me who had gone to 2.15 this meant I needed to manually post-process my completed A16 configuration for presets that comes out of the CSV processor running under 2.15 firmware, in order to configure my own Auro support. There is simply no correct way to define Auro properly using the CSV files used to define presets through the current 2.15 CSV processor system. Hopefully Smyth will fix this in an upcoming firmware release, whenever that is.

Since I never ran under 2.12 firmware but instead went to 2.15, I cannot personally speak to how closely the 2.12 CSV processor matches the 2.12 firmware for Auro and/or other features. I do know there were a handful of minor (but non-zero) omissions and inaccuracies, as reported by others (and also which I personally experienced as well). Again, you will want to perform a detailed review of everything that you end up coming out of the CSV processor build, comparing every A16 2.12 configuration screen to the original corresponding screen (before you upgraded firmware, i.e. with current 1.8) which you absolutely should produce before you start.

NOTE: I actually did have one significant error show up with the output from the CSV processor, that may or may not be experienced by others. It might stem from all of my PRIR's having been originally generated many years ago on an A8 and then up-converted for use on the A16. The problem I ran into was specific to one particular 7.1 DTS listening room I had defined, and the particular Lss/Rss speakers in that room as derived from my "up-converted A8->A16 PRIR". For some unknown reason the CSV processor was actually looking for Ls/Rs speakers, which are not present in a 7.1 room. Not finding Ls/Rs in my 7.1 PRIR it fell back to pick them up from the BBC PRIR (where they were in fact present). So I had to manually correct this, replacing the incorrect BBC Ls/Rs with my Lss.Rss, using the A16 machine user interface itself... which of course DOES FIND Lss/Rss in my 7.1 PRIR. Very strange. Only in this one particular DTS room did this anomaly caused by the CSV processor occur (but which could easily be manually corrected, once I noticed it). YMMV.

 

[JonFo]

I explored the CSV approach back in July. This was also my motivation for upgrading from the 2.11 I'd been at until then, straight to 2.15 (bypassing 2.12 which was when CSV processing was first released). At that time I wrote THREE rather detailed and consecutive forum items about my experience and discoveries, which you can find starting with post #15,077.

Thank you very much for all the detailed info. They are much appreciated.

Given I do not use anything other than Atmos & DTS-X, I'll not worry too much about the Auro issues.
My PRIRs are from 1.81, and I do not intend to create new ones anytime soon, so I can wait for newer firmware with a fix before I attempt a fresh PRIR.

Now, I'm off to write up my upgrade sequence instructions.

 

[zdjh22]

[Edited - see added info below]
I was given a DVD-Audio image today of a SQ/Q8 record, and it’s encoded as MLP 4.0. Works great on my Denon, but I can’t seem to trick my A16 into rendering it as four channels. Rather than PCM 4.0, it insists it’s getting PCM 2.0 over HDMI. The A16 will happily upmix to Atmos, but it doesn’t sound right (as though it is upmixing the LR channels only). I’m sending it to the A16 from my Oppo 203, and I’ve tried both HDMI Bitstream and LPCM.

I recall seeing this discussed before in the thread, but I can seem to find it tonight. I’m hoping it doesn’t involve adding phantom LFE and C channels, as I don’t have a way of re-encoding as MLP to make a new DVD-A image.

[Added info]
OK, weirdness, and I can’t be sure it’s the A16 or the Oppo causing the issue. If I play A Night at the Opera, a 5.1 MLP DVD-A, first, then play this new DVD-A, the A16 reports PCM 6 CH and the correct speakers light up (L/R/Ls/Rs). And it sounds like it should. So one system or the other gets into a certain playback state based on what’s been played before. No issues on the AVR, so I suspect the A16, but who knows.

 

[GeorgeA]

.......................
I recall seeing this discussed before in the thread, but I can seem to find it tonight. I’m hoping it doesn’t involve adding phantom LFE and C channels, as I don’t have a way of re-encoding as MLP to make a new DVD-A image.
.....................

There was an issue with playing back 5.0 SACD discs that has been solved by firmware 2.11.

“1. PCM over HDMI
The handling of PCM over HDMI and eARC has been upgraded to include the popular 5.0 DSD surround format. Moreover, the HDMI and eARC PCM displays have been expanded to distinguish between the reception of 2, 5, 6 and 8ch PCM audio.”

Given that firmware revision, you shouldn’t confront the situation as described in your Post #15,531.

 

[GeorgeA]

@zdjh22, I’m writing again because I found a copy (I don't remember where I got it) of a DVD (a DVD audio layer with mlp 4.0 audio track and a DVD video layer with Dolby digital 4.0 audio track).

The DVD Video layer played back by my CXUHD player and rendered by Realiser A16 is shown in the first two screen captures. However, the DVD audio layer is rendered only as PCM 2.0 rather than PCM 4.0 (the third and fourth screen captures), similarly with your findings. One conclusion might be that PCM over HDMI as described by the firmware 2.11 is not always valid.

I played another DVD Audio with the mlp 5.1 audio track that Realiser A16 rendered correctly as you can see in the fifth and sixth screen captures.

Could it be that the transfers of quadraphonic audio tracks cannot be rendered correctly by Realiser A16 even though the input audio signal is 4.0?

 

[zdjh22]

Could it be that the transfers of quadraphonic audio tracks cannot be rendered correctly by Realiser A16 even though the input audio signal is 4.0?

I've played around quite a bit more with this tonight, using both my Oppo 203 and a Windows PC as sources connected via HDMI.

As best I can tell, this is some sort of issue with the Oppo and the A16 agreeing on the number of PCM channels being sent. On power-up of the A16, or after playing certain other formats (for example, SACD 5.1 via PCM), an MLP-4.0 file which is sent as PCM 4.0 is only seen as PCM 2.0. However, after playing a different DVD-A disc with MLP-5.1, subsequently the A16 renders the PCM 4.0 correctly. The display switches from "HDMI PCM Discrete 2-CH" to "... 6-CH". The virtual speaker display reflects either two channels when the Oppo and A16 are not in agreement, or four channels when they are in agreement. Happily I have a recipe now to get the Oppo and A16 to agree to render a pure 4.0 signal.

With the WIndows 10 PC I have no problems at all, although the Windows audio driver can be configured for Stereo, 5.1, 7.1, or Dolby Atmos. With Stereo any Flac file extracted from the DVD-A's tested above is shown as "HDMI PCM DIscrete 2-CH". With 5.1, 7.1, or Dolby Atmos, the display changes to 6-CH, 8-CH, or Dolby Atmos, respectively, and the audio is correctly rendered with 4 channels only "lighting" up. One bonus is that with 5.1 the Ls and Rs virtual speakers are used for the rears, whereas with 7.1 or Atmos the Lb and Rb virtual speakers are used. Classic quads (the one I was listening to came from a Q8 tape that was digitized) sound much better with Lb/Rb. I only wish my Denon would use my Lb/Rb speakers for 4.0!

So definitely quad audio tracks can be rendered correctly by the A16, but it can be a bit of an adventure.

 

[GeorgeA]

..................
So definitely quad audio tracks can be rendered correctly by the A16, but it can be a bit of an adventure.

Thanks for your detailed description of rendering quadraphonic transfers. I think it would be good if Smyth Research would consider this issue and include the solution in a future software update for Realiser A16.

 

[mrmac]

I’m having the good fortune to be able to do a personal PRIR in a high end showroom. I’ve made the decision to buy the club realiser membership and use the 9.1.6 async file for capture. Seems like the way to go.

Now, can I please ask all you wizards for some advice what to think about before I do this? @Litlgi74 @audiohobbit @Got the Shakes etc.

Is it advised to do base management so all channels full range?
Base +10 or not?
What’s the easiest way to get the look angles right? Tape on the wall and laser pointer or head tracker?
I have the dekoni tips. Any suggestions for microphone placement in the ear? How do I know its position is good?
If center speaker is below screen. Is it a good idea to sit on the floor to get it higher up? (physically moving speakers is unlikely)
Should I worry about the HPEQ? Do it at the same place? ManLOUD?

Anything else? Any advice would be very much appreciated.

Another question not related to PRIR.
Anyone know if the tactical output is basically bass direct? My thinking is that for tactile you want the very lowest bass. Most subwoofers that you would have a prir off would not go infrasonic. I guess you could always go bass direct in the bass settings and use that for buttkickers. It seems like most people think bass direct sounds too dry. Would be great if you could add “bass direct” at a certain super low frequency so you get best of both worlds.

Anyone done some tests with this?

Thank you all, and happy holidays.
E

 

[GeorgeA]

I think it would be good if someone from the showroom staff would help you as much as possible: to check the position of the microphones in your ears as well as the look angles. Ideally, it would be easier if they let you set marks for the angles. The head tracker should be your friend.

Good luck and maybe you write a short review about your measurements in that high end showroom.

 

[sander99]

Anyone know if the tactical output is basically bass direct?

"Direct Bass" and tactical output are 2 different things, and nothing to worry about during PRIR measurements.
"Direct Bass" means that - at playback time - bass below some cross over point that you can set (to 60, 80, or 120 Hz) is not binauralised but directly mixed into the headphone signal.
Completely seperate from that, low bass can also be made available over the tactile output to drive buttkickers or something like that (or a real subwoofer). It also has cross over settings 60, 80, and 120 Hz.
The settings for both Direct Bass and tactile outputs are in the listening rooms.
The settings of the tactile outputs won't influence the headphone signal (I think, 99% sure, at least they shouldn't in my opinion).
If you want a lower cross over point for the tactile outputs you can always do some additional filtering after the tactile outputs (for example I have used a subpack sometimes with an old graphic equalizer - 12 bands including 16 and 32 Hz bands - between the tactile outputs and the subpack).

 

[Litlgi74]

I’m having the good fortune to be able to do a personal PRIR in a high end showroom. I’ve made the decision to buy the club realiser membership and use the 9.1.6 async file for capture. Seems like the way to go.

Now, can I please ask all you wizards for some advice what to think about before I do this? @Litlgi74 @audiohobbit @Got the Shakes etc.

Is it advised to do base management so all channels full range?
Base +10 or not?
What’s the easiest way to get the look angles right? Tape on the wall and laser pointer or head tracker?
I have the dekoni tips. Any suggestions for microphone placement in the ear? How do I know its position is good?
If center speaker is below screen. Is it a good idea to sit on the floor to get it higher up? (physically moving speakers is unlikely)
Should I worry about the HPEQ? Do it at the same place? ManLOUD?

Anything else? Any advice would be very much appreciated.

Another question not related to PRIR.
Anyone know if the tactical output is basically bass direct? My thinking is that for tactile you want the very lowest bass. Most subwoofers that you would have a prir off would not go infrasonic. I guess you could always go bass direct in the bass settings and use that for buttkickers. It seems like most people think bass direct sounds too dry. Would be great if you could add “bass direct” at a certain super low frequency so you get best of both worlds.

Anyone done some tests with this?

Thank you all, and happy holidays.
E

Congrats... sounds like fun!

Unless you have dependent hardware... Make sure you are on fw 2.14 or earlier. 2.15 will leave you very disappointed.

If you are going to a showroom... The room "should" be set up for optimal sound. Meaning that bass management and room EQ should already be done. If so, I would capture the room as is... With one minor correction. If you can manually turn down the LFE to +0 instead of +10 (not the subwoofer channe of the system). This way, you will be able to enable LFE +10 in the A16. It also prevents clipping of the virtual subwoofer channel.

You will definitely want to use head tracking,.. just put the set top at the center channel position and follow the prompts of the async file. It may also be helpful if you made yourself familiar with the async file / video before you create the PRIR. The instructions of the video are very clear... But it moves from one step to the next very quickly. I found it helpful to know the times it would switch from look center, look left, and look right. This way I could pause the video to get myself set in the next position before continuing the sweeps.

I wouldn't worry about the center channel... It is what is. You won't have time to reposition yourself during the PRIR... The Async process moves very quickly. If you wanted to... You could make a second PRIR seated in a lower position / on the floor to achieve the correct height for the center channel. Then you could use just the center channel of that PRIR with the first one you made.

Gilles instruction say to set the volume of the system to as loud as possible without damaging the system. I WOULD AVOID THIS! Use the first step of the async file to set the volume of the system to the appropriate level for PRIR creation... The volume level will be indicated on the a16 screen... Adjustments can be made in real time.

I would definitely create an HPEQ(s) in the showroom. It's important you create it in the same room and with the same microphones positions. I usually make an HPEQ before and after each PRIR creation. It only takes a few seconds. Do it while you are there... And with all your headphones.

I would also check the status of your mics before you go to the showroom.
You definitely want to make sure you mics are balanced... If they look anything like this... The PRIR will be a disaster and a waste of everyone's time.

See the manual 5.3.4.11 Listen to Mics on HPB for instructions.

Wear the blue static strap at all times during the testing, measuring and when handling the microphones.

PS... Don't worry about any gurgling sounds your throat might make during PRIR creation. They won't effect the result.

Have fun!

 

[sander99]

If center speaker is below screen. Is it a good idea to sit on the floor to get it higher up? (physically moving speakers is unlikely)

I think it would be better to keep your head in the normal "sweetspot", but just look down a bit, straight at the center speaker. That way you don't risk to have your head in a spot that is not optimal with regards to room correction/eq. As @Litlgi74 said you will have to do this in a seperate measurement. I don't suppose there is a async file for the center speaker alone, but maybe a 5.1 file so you don't have to measure all speakers again just to get that alternative center speaker(?).