Smyth Research Realiser A16
Feb 9, 2022 at 8:50 AM Post #13,126 of 16,067
Okay, thanks for taking the time to answer my question, i am out of the loop. I did hear about the chip factory fire which was very unfortunate.

Under those circumstances i can understand that they cant pay out of their own pockets for this.
 
Feb 9, 2022 at 8:54 AM Post #13,127 of 16,067
Just received email that we can now purchase a software upgrade so our A16 units can decode DTS-X, while it is nice to see that this functionality is now supported,
wasnt the A16 advertised as DTS-x decoding capable, why would we now pay $199 for that? Or am i missing something?
It has been a bit of time since I’ve read up on anything, but I know DTS used to charge licensees a fee per device they activated DTS on even if it’s after it’s in the hands of a customer. Assuming that is still the case, Smyth Research is paying DTS for every one they activate it on. Between that and underestimating the cost of development, unfortunately that cost gets passed on to the end user.
 
Feb 9, 2022 at 3:29 PM Post #13,128 of 16,067
Just received email that we can now purchase a software upgrade so our A16 units can decode DTS-X...
Forgive for asking but have you already received your A16 and now being offered the upgrade to DTS-X?. Or are you still waiting for your A16 and the email is asking you if you wish to pay for the upgrade to DTS-X and have it installed,before delivery.
Just wondering if there is movement again on actual orders, or Smyth Research are sending out emails to purchase DTS-X upgrade only to people who have received their A16's, but NO update movement on the balance of Kickstarter or pre-orders.
 
Feb 10, 2022 at 7:11 AM Post #13,129 of 16,067
Forgive for asking but have you already received your A16 and now being offered the upgrade to DTS-X?. Or are you still waiting for your A16 and the email is asking you if you wish to pay for the upgrade to DTS-X and have it installed,before delivery.
Just wondering if there is movement again on actual orders, or Smyth Research are sending out emails to purchase DTS-X upgrade only to people who have received their A16's, but NO update movement on the balance of Kickstarter or pre-orders.
Very good question, and it's something I'd like to know.

Based on what @Juy777 has posted in the past, I probably know that he already owns A16.
 
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Feb 10, 2022 at 12:08 PM Post #13,130 of 16,067
Any clue where we are on orders. I ordered mine 4 years ago. pre-order number #89
 
Feb 10, 2022 at 12:33 PM Post #13,131 of 16,067
I emailed James yesterday, asking if there was any progress on the Realiser Exchange. I‘d be very happily surprised to receive a reply given the dearth of communication from Smyth Research over the past year or two. It’s been 5 years this month since my CanJam New York 2017 PRIR capture. Though I’m planning on having a more meticulously done PRIR capture this spring by John at 3D Soundshop, I would still love to have my CanJam PRIR. I remember showing up with a usb drive and being told by one of the Smyth brothers that my PRIR would come on my A16 when it shipped. I’m admittedly quite fortunate to have already received my A16(my glass is certainly way more than half full in that regard). Smyth Research, however, has had two opportunities to load the PRIR(once when it first shipped in January 2020 and again when it shipped after the hardware upgrades were done and DTS-X was installed. Further take into account that the debut of the Realiser Exchange was announced as being essentially imminent over a year ago.
 
Feb 10, 2022 at 1:09 PM Post #13,132 of 16,067
I’m quite reluctant that Smyth Research saved those files in a certain order so that they can provide them to those who attended their presentation and measurement sessions over the years. They could’ve copied them to Realiser A16 units as they shipped the packages or made them available for download. If we look back, it wasn’t such a fast delivery pace so that they went out of time for loading the individual files to the Realiser A16 units.
 
Feb 10, 2022 at 1:38 PM Post #13,133 of 16,067
Interesting newly discovered cabling method, with surprisingly good results.

I'm still working on how to best put together all the sources and processors in my configuration.

(1) I've now tried and rejected the "AVR HDMI1-out -> splitter" method, because it loses HDMI-CEC and eARC, things which are important to me.

(2) I've also tried and rejected the "AVR HDMI2-out -> A16 -> HD Fury Dr. HDMI 4K (dead-end)" because that simply did not work at all. It's been suggested that if I add a "dummy head" HDMI plug into the OUTPUT of the DH4K (because it should NOT be dead-ended) that this might solve the problem. Haven't bought one of the dummy head items yet (inexpensive $8) to try, but I don't think I will.

(3) The HD Fury support thread over on AVS Forum suggested that the DH4K (at about $150 delivered) was not the proper device to be using for my objective. They suggested that their Vertex 2 (priced at almost $500 delivered) would almost certainly do the trick. I'm not interested.

So in the end I'm back to where I started, using a combination of HDMI and analog inputs on the AVR, along with having my streaming devices feeding three of the HDMI inputs on the A16, with the one HDMI output from the A16 going to HDMI3-in of the AVR. HDMI1-out of the AVR goes to my LG C9 TV. My Oppo 203 has its HDMI MAIN-out (for video only) going to HDMI2-in of the AVR. Its second HDMI2-out (for audio only, delivering bitstream) goes to HDMI1-in of the A16. This setup automatically supports getting headphone audio output from the A16 for all four of my sources, all of which have audio via HDMI going into the A16. Video from the three streaming devices (which are also delivering their audio directly to the A16 on the way through) goes through the A16 and into the AVR, and then out to the TV. Video from the 203 goes directly into the AVR and then out to the TV, with multi-channel bitstream audio going to the A16 for headphone listening.

So for headphone listening via A16 there's nothing to discuss. But now we talk about the alternative of wanting to listen to sound "casually" and analog, using my 2.0 speakers along with "tone control" provided by my DBX 14/10 EQ. Sound from my [pretty good] 2.0 speakers with tone control via the 14-band DBX EQ is much superior to the very basic and simple +/- 6db bass/treble control available from the AVR, and so I really do want to use it for ANYTHING coming out of my 2.0 speakers (which are managed by the AVR).

And herein lies the latest knowledge breakthrough. The A16 provides various ways to deliver output audio, but unfortunately "AV" mode (and then pushing the SPEAKER button on the remote) delivers the input multi-channel audio directly to the output analog outputs but provides no way for AV mode to downmix it to 2.0 stereo (i.e. to just the Lf/Rf analog outputs, like the "2ch-stereo" mode of an AVR). So unless the source audio is itself only 2.0, feeding the L/R analog outputs of the A16 to the analog audio input of the AVR results in only hearing the Lf/Rf channels of a multi-channel source. Not acceptable.

Alternatively, the A16 also provides "stereo mixdown", but not for its AV-mode feeding its analog outputs. It only provides stereo mixdown for headphone output, with several additional options. When stereo mixdown to 2.0 is properly activated on the A16 you can use the "headphone" button on the remote to apply the SVS processing to that 2.0 stereo mixdown delivered to the headphone output (both analog and optical). And you can also use the "speaker" button on the remote to inhibit SVS processing, and simply provide what is really "2ch-stereo" pure unprocessed stereo mixdown and delivered to the headphone output (both analog and optical).

And even furthermore, you can optionally apply (or not) your HPEQ to the stereo mixdown, in both modes of either SVS-applied or SVS-inhibited. So what you hear through headphones is absolutely a stereo mixdown, presented through the "2.0 PCM listening room using some PRIR to define the 2.0 speakers being used". And furthermore you can apply SVS or just pass-through the 2ch-stereo downmix as-is (with no SVS processing). And furthemore you can optionally apply the equalization appropriate for the headphones you're using by activating its HPEQ or not. Again, all terrific... if you are listening through headphones.

But what I discovered is that I can actually NOT use headphones to listen but instead use my 2.0 speakers, managed by the AVR, for this very 2.0 stereo mixdown from the A16 that was intended for headphones. And furthermore I can even insert my DBX EQ into the audio path, so that the sound delivered on my 2.0 speakers from the AVR is tone-controlled by the EQ as I want.

The trick is that I use an external DAC fed via optical cable from the A16, normally for handling the still-digital SVS-processed headphone output. The analog output of the DAC is then sent via XLR cable to my Stax amp/headphones, for my listening pleasure using headphones. Well as it turns out the DAC also has RCA outputs (in addition to the XLR outputs), so I can simply feed the RCA 2.0 stereo analog output from the DAC into the L/R analog input of the DBX EQ. And then I can feed the L/R analog output of the DBX EQ into an analog input of the AVR. And I can configure the AVR to combine the input HDMI-provided video coming directly from the HDMI-output of the A16 with this analog L/R stereo audio (tone controlled by the DBX EQ) coming by way ot the optical headphone output of the A16 -> DAC -> RCA to DBX EQ -> AVR.

So, what am I actually now hearing on the 2.0 speakers? It is exactly what would normally be heard through headphones out of the A16. If I am NOT using "stereo mixdown" mode then it is actually the genuine multi-channel multi-speaker SVS-processed simulated PRIR-defined listening environment as my ears would hear it through headphones, but delivered in my ordinary bedroom through 2.0 speakers on the floor. Remarkably, it sounds very much like the AIX listening room defined by the PRIR. There absolutely is that same 3D-like sensation you get when listening through headphones, even though the 2.0 speakers are not really appropriate for the HPEQ being applied. Nevertheless it is remarkably good! Definitely a sensation of "depth" around the TV screen, like there were more than just the 2.0 speakers... like in the AIX room for real. Most importantly I am also utilizing my DBX EQ for additional tone control (beyond what the A16 and PRIR and HPEQ are already applying to this headphone-out feed).

Alternatively, I can instead go to official "stereo mixdown" mode. This changes the headphone feed to now reflect only 2.0 channels as the source, and then either with or without SVS processing on top of it, and then either with or without HPEQ applied (I have disabled this since I'm clearly not listening through headphones). This is exactly how it would sound if I put on the headphones and listened, except that it is coming out of my 2.0 speakers (again by way of the A16 optical -> DAC -> RCA -> DBX EQ -> AVR). And I can say that it is EXACTLY AS YOU'D EXPECT, from speakers instead of headphones! If I set it to stereo mixdown WITH SVS-applied, it sounds a bit 3D-like but nothing like the earlier presentation without using stereo mixdown but simply feeding 2.0 speakers instead of real headphones. But if I then turn off SVS completely, and deliver "pure 2ch-stereo" mixdown to the 2.0 speakers, it sounds FLAT and simply 2D, i.e. L/R! Really no sensation of depth at all. The sound is simply flat at the vertical plane of the 2.0 speakers and goes no "deeper" or "in-front".

So this is really quite a revelation. And the above story is for the three streaming source devices going into HDMI2-4 of the A16. But it also applies to HDMI1, where the multi-channel bitstream audio coming from the Oppo 203 is provided. There is no video here that needs to be passed through to the AVR, and besides the MAIN-out of the 203 (for video only) is separately going into HDMI2-in of the AVR. So the AVR is not expecting 203 video to be coming from the A16. However since there is an HDMI connection from 203 to the A16, I can also do the same set of stereo mixdown (or not) delivery methods out via A16 optical -> DAC -> RCA -> DBX EQ -> AVR to the 2.0 speakers for any audio coming from the 203. All well and good, but it requires that the A16 be powered on. When "casually" watching/listening to HDTV (which is fed through the external HDMI input of the 203) I really just want the 203 and AVR (to handle the speakers) powered on. I don't want or need the A16 on unless i want to listen through headphones.

So in this case I have the speaker configuration on the 203 set to 2.0 speakers, so the 203 itself is doing 2ch-stereo mixdown for analog audio presented on its own L/R line-outputs. And I have these two L/R analog outputs connected to a second L/R input on the DBX EQ (separate from the first L/R input which accepts RCA output from the DAC as I described earlier). I simply have to push the INPUT 1/2 button on the DBX EQ to accept the 203's stereo mixdown feed and pass it on to the AVR, and I'm now listening to HDTV audio (as 2.0 stereo mixdown). Yes, it is "flat" (since there is no A16 and SVS involved), but it's perfectly acceptable. And it does make use of the DBX EQ for tone control, which is the objective.

This, then, is my now current configuration. No cables need to be moved except for eARC for a TV app, and even then only if I want to listen through A16 and headphones, or DBX EQ tone control for audio through 2.0 speakers, because I can get "normal" eARC audio directly from the AVR (but without benefit of the DBX EQ) exactly from the cable to the TV connected to HDMI1-out of the AVR. But otherwise, for all NON-eARC situations (which is 99.5% of my operation) this cabling provides 100% of what I want.

(a) A16 and DAC is only powered on when needed, meaning (a) when I want to listen through headphones, or (b) when I want to listen through speakers in A16-facilitated SVS mode (i.e. simulating the AIX room but using 2.0 speakers instead of 2.0 headphones), or in official 2.0 stereo mixdown mode (either with or without SVS applied). DBX EQ is only powered on if 2.0 speakers are used. And actually the AVR only needs to be powered on if I am listening through speakers. Because of its HDMI Standby-through feature it doesn't need to be powered on if I'm listening through headphones to a streaming device source, which passes video out the A16 and into the AVR and out of it... even while the AVR is in standby mode.

(b) Casual HDTV listening via 203 (i.e. through speakers) does not require the A16 and DAC to be powered on. Stereo mixdown is done by the 203 and still feeds the DBX EQ which feeds the AVR. So the AVR, DBX EQ and 203 must be powered on when speakers are needed. Only when headphone listening to something from the 203 is desired (either discs or HDTV) does the A16 and DAC need to be powered on. But then the DBX EQ can be powered off (since speakers are not being used) and even the AVR can be powered off, again because of its HDMI Standby-through feature that will pass video coming from the 203 on through and out to the TV, even while the AVR is in standby mode.

NOTE: while I am blessed to have a DBX 14/10 EQ to improve tone control for analog sound from my 2.0 speakers, that's just a goodie. Not required in order for this cabling approach to work. What is required, however, would seem to be the external DAC that has TWO ANALOG OUTPUTS: (a) XLR to the amp/headphone for headphone listening, and (b) RCA to an analog input to the AVR for feeding the 2.0 speakers (either with or without an EQ in the middle). I haven't used the built-in headphone outputs of the A16 but perhaps the front and rear analog headphone outputs could also be used to feed the two output path options, i.e. (a) to true headphones, and (b) to AVR analog input in order to support speakers.

Definite advantage of having an AVR.
 
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Feb 10, 2022 at 3:19 PM Post #13,134 of 16,067
But what I discovered is that I can actually NOT use headphones to listen but instead use my 2.0 speakers, managed by the AVR, for this very 2.0 stereo mixdown from the A16 that was intended for headphones.
Of course. I suggested this solution many times in this thread to various people. Also for people who do not use an external DAC: they can simply use the analog stereo RCA HP A or B out. Or one of the 4 spdif outputs (HP A or B, optical or coax).
What is required, however, would seem to be the external DAC that has TWO ANALOG OUTPUTS: (a) XLR to the amp/headphone for headphone listening, and (b) RCA to an analog input to the AVR for feeding the 2.0 speakers (either with or without an EQ in the middle). I haven't used the built-in headphone outputs of the A16 but perhaps the front and rear analog headphone outputs could also be used to feed the two output path options, i.e. (a) to true headphones, and (b) to AVR analog input in order to support speakers.
As stated above, no external DAC required, the rear analog RCA HP outputs can be used.
 
Feb 10, 2022 at 3:48 PM Post #13,135 of 16,067
I’m quite reluctant that Smyth Research saved those files in a certain order so that they can provide them to those who attended their presentation and measurement sessions over the years. They could’ve copied them to Realiser A16 units as they shipped the packages or made them available for download. If we look back, it wasn’t such a fast delivery pace so that they went out of time for loading the individual files to the Realiser A16 units.
I hope (as I'm sure, you do) that your speculation is proven incorrect. IIRC, in some of their communications maybe 1 1/2-2 years ago re: the 'upcoming' launch of the Realiser Exchange, Smyth Research stated that the individual PRIRs would be made available when the Exchange went online. Besides which, we all know that there are a lot of things that Smyth Research could have done. Anyway, as with all things A16, hope springs eternal. :smirk:
 
Feb 10, 2022 at 8:03 PM Post #13,136 of 16,067
Just received email that we can now purchase a software upgrade so our A16 units can decode DTS-X, while it is nice to see that this functionality is now supported,
wasnt the A16 advertised as DTS-x decoding capable, why would we now pay $199 for that? Or am i missing something?
For the moment, i did not pay the fee to get DTS. I use Plex on my NVidia Shield and it decodes DTS and send a multichannel PCM to the A16. It works fine with DTS HD-MA. I guess it will not work with DTS:X but anyway there are so few movies with it that i can live without for the moment. Maybe i'll get the license later.
 
Feb 11, 2022 at 4:04 AM Post #13,137 of 16,067
For the moment, i did not pay the fee to get DTS. I use Plex on my NVidia Shield and it decodes DTS and send a multichannel PCM to the A16. It works fine with DTS HD-MA. I guess it will not work with DTS:X but anyway there are so few movies with it that i can live without for the moment. Maybe i'll get the license later.

How many movies are there really that only have DTS:X but no Atmos? As you said though, (AFAIK) there aren't that many movies out right now with it anyway. My blu-ray player decodes DTS just fine also, so I currently have no use for the license either.
 
Feb 11, 2022 at 6:50 AM Post #13,138 of 16,067
How many movies are there really that only have DTS:X but no Atmos? As you said though, (AFAIK) there aren't that many movies out right now with it anyway. My blu-ray player decodes DTS just fine also, so I currently have no use for the license either.
As Dolby Atmos and DTS:X are object-based sound systems, metadata are used to control which speakers are reproducing certain sounds. For Dolby Atmos, the metadata are added to Dolby TrueHD or Dolby Digital Plus signals. However, those metadata are not decoded by various players (e.g., Oppo UDP 203) and they are bitstreamed to Dolby Atmos/DTS:X capable processors such as Realiser A16.
 
Feb 11, 2022 at 6:54 AM Post #13,139 of 16,067
How many movies are there really that only have DTS:X but no Atmos? As you said though, (AFAIK) there aren't that many movies out right now with it anyway. My blu-ray player decodes DTS just fine also, so I currently have no use for the license either.
It's usually one or the other. I have never seen a disc that supported both, though I suppose they may exist. There are also regional differences, with some regions preferring DTS over Dolby.
 
Feb 11, 2022 at 7:15 AM Post #13,140 of 16,067
How many movies are there really that only have DTS:X but no Atmos? As you said though, (AFAIK) there aren't that many movies out right now with it anyway. My blu-ray player decodes DTS just fine also, so I currently have no use for the license either.
I bought two BluRay movies in order to test out my own DTS:X upgrade, both to test out the A16 itself as well as to experience DTS:X audio. I bought "Apollo 13" as well as "Ex Machina".

My thinking is that DTS and Dolby don't really get along, and that you will very likely not ever see one disc produced with a full array of audio formats from both vendors offered. It certainly is not true for the two discs I bought.

In the case of "Apollo 13" the audio options are: DTS:X Master Audio, DTS-HD Master Audio 5.1, and English Dolby Digital 2.0.

For "Ex Machina" the audio options are: DTS:X Master Audio, DTS-HD Master Audio 5.1, DTS:X Headphone, DTS Digital Surround 5.1, with no mention of Dolby or even 2.0.

There may be other Dolby-centric audio formats of discs available for these films but I specifically was looking for DTS:X content. Certainly definitely not Dolby Atmos and DTS:X being offered on the single discs I bought, which is clearly because of licensing issues and costs and decisions made by the studios.

As far as decoding through the player, that is certainly true. You can certainly play these discs on a player like the Oppo 203 and let the player do the decoding. But then it can only deliver the decoded result over HDMI as LPCM (say lossless 5.1 or 7.1). But it will not be the object-form of the audio. It will be limited to the underlying non-object 5.1/7.1. The player must deliver the audio over HDMI still-encoded Atmos and DTS:X as "bitstream" to the downstream AVR (e.g. A16, or your actual AVR with physical Atmos speakers), where the processing of these object formats then takes place.

So the only way to listen to DTS:X through the A16 and headphones is if the A16 is firmware-upgraded and also licensed/activated to process DTS:X, which is what that new $199 licensing fee is for. It is being charged to Smyth by DTS on a per-device basis, same as the Dolby licensing. It's just that Smyth opted to go forward initially with Dolby formats and built in their same per-device license charge in the initial price of the A16. They either didn't know what the DTS license charge would be, or simply chose to do what they've done now which is to after-the-fact now pass on the now known license cost paid to DTS for permission to decode DTS:X, to any A16 user who feels this after-the-fact additional pass-through cost is justified because they want to listen to DTS:X via A16 and headphones. Could also have been an initial optional up-charge in the original purchase price, and it would really be the same thing.

Obviously we probably didn't expect this. But it's not unreasonable to have the customer pay for the optional additional license cost, either at time of original purchase or now if you want to upgrade your existing A16. And it's optional.
 
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