[You Gene]

I have just begun "programming" my A16 : presets active, auto EQ of headphones. I believe the next step would be manLoud (no idea).

But I have 3 questions :
1) when playing an Atmos DVD, I get Atmos all right when looking at the screen via the PA button on the remote. So far so good. However what shows on the top right of the screen is "(Atmos)". Why the brackets?

2) On the Menu screen, I see next to line 1 : "Presets A You Gene". And next to that : "HDMI!" in red. The same applies to line 2 for Presets B.
When I press on "Presets A You Gene" to go to the next screen : line 1 shows "Mode Movie" and audio source mentions HDMI 1 in white. Next to "Mode Movie" the same "HDMI !" appears in red. The same applies to line 2 for Presets B.

3) When playing a Dolby 5.1 the screen (via PA) shows also (Atmos). Why the brackets and also why not PCM since it is not an Atmos DVD?

Thank you.

 

[Dixter]

Correct me if i am wrong but we don t need to perform Manloud with our own PRIR and autoEQ HP ..just need the Manspk EQ bc we have our physical spk to compare with our HP..

From my perspective this is what I think... The AutoHPEQ routine uses the mics and that routine performs the adjustments of the headphone earcups/outer ear chamber... the ManLoud routine does not use the mics and instead uses your inner ears during the measurements so with the AutoHPEQ in combination with the ManLoud the A16 measures the headphone cup and outer ear and inner ear completeing the adjustments to your brain... The ManLoud routine also allows you during the process to make fine adjustments to potential mis balances due to frequency imbalance of your inner ears by allowing you to fine tune the left/right signals... so in theory you should be balanced across the frequency band and in that band matched left and right... if you get a audiologist to measure your ears frequency response and have him print out the results you can see how much your inner ears are mis matched and understand where the manload adjustments would make a difference for you... some places do them for free...

 

[sander99]

Anybody have an idea what might have induced this buzz, and how to eliminate it?

I don't know the cause, but have some ideas about eliminating it.

(Ha ha, you won't like me mentioning this first and most sure and effective but unfortunately for now just hypothetical one
1. Using the A16: If the Smyths would have implemented the asynchronous measurement method you could have played the sweeps from a disc or flac file with the A16 totally unconnected to the car audio system! Surely there would have been no buzz!

(But this one could also work
2. Send the output of the Realiser to (a device containing) an analog to digital converter with an optical spdif output. If your car system happens to have an optical input use that, otherwise use a portable or car battery powered device containing a optical spdif input and a DAC and analog output and connect that to the car aux input. Now it probably only depends on this last device whether there will be a buzz or not, and I suspect in most cases there won't. (The Realiser is now completely galvanically isolated from the car, if using power from somewhere else to power both the Realiser and the analog to digital converter.)

 

[sander99]

From my perspective this is what I think... The AutoHPEQ routine uses the mics and that routine performs the adjustments of the headphone earcups/outer ear chamber... the ManLoud routine does not use the mics and instead uses your inner ears during the measurements so with the AutoHPEQ in combination with the ManLoud the A16 measures the headphone cup and outer ear and inner ear completeing the adjustments to your brain... The ManLoud routine also allows you during the process to make fine adjustments to potential mis balances due to frequency imbalance of your inner ears by allowing you to fine tune the left/right signals... so in theory you should be balanced across the frequency band and in that band matched left and right... if you get a audiologist to measure your ears frequency response and have him print out the results you can see how much your inner ears are mis matched and understand where the manload adjustments would make a difference for you... some places do them for free...

I suspect a slight miscommunication, @Om ma Ni is mentioning a third option: the manSPKR which is also a manual procedure, and may include all the advantages from the manLOUD as well(?).

 

[Rene Lou]

Correct me if i am wrong but we don t need to perform Manloud with our own PRIR and autoEQ HP ..just need the Manspk EQ bc we have our physical spk to compare with our HP..

Yes, with your own PRIR and measured speakers still available to you, do a manSPKR, no need for a manLOUD. With manSPKR you compare the real speakers with the virtual speakers and add a new filter (manSPKR) to the selected HPEQ until the headphone is a perfect copy of the real speakers (autoEQ filter is recommended to be used as starting point). After pressing the HP button, the new manSPKR filter will be saved to the selected HPEQ file you used as starting point.
manSPKR is much easier to do as the manLOUD routine, since for every sub-band pink noise there is always a reference with the real speakers to compare with, and modifying the volume of the headphone to a level that it is equal to the real speakers is quite easy to do.

Bit disapointed atm bc spent a lot effort and time to get my first full PRIR done included a proper autoEQ with manspk filter etc....ended up having these annoying treble picks and sibilant for my first Atmos movie with the A16.

To correct this, I started to modify some bands above my hearing limit as well. Common knowledge is that you lose the ability to hear higher frequencies when getting older (approx. 2kHz for each 10 years of age). With an age of 55 one will have a typical upper hearing limit of approx. 9kHz. Working through the sub-band pink noise signals above a certain frequency I do not hear anything at all. Nevertheless, I lowered the next 2-3 higher sub-bands with 3 clicks each as well and the 'annoying treble picks' has gone away. Maybe you want to try this as well. You should be able to use your current manSPKR filter as starting point, set all bands to '0' and modify just the next 2-3 higher bands you do not hear (eg: 9 kHz+, depends on your age) set a little bit lower.
One more comment: when you have done a HPEQ which is perfect for you, you will not have to redo this for newer A16 PRIR's you are going to measure.

 

[Dixter]

I suspect a slight miscommunication, @Om ma Ni is mentioning a third option: the manSPKR which is also a manual procedure, and may include all the advantages from the manLOUD as well(?).

Hmm... I have not ran the manSPKR routine so I can't comment on that routine... might need to try it and see what it does...

 

[Dixter]

what Rene wrote above is very true... I have that age issue too.... also of note is the frequency of the headphones you use.... if one pair is bright vs another pair that isn't bright but has more bottom end then the manLoud routine will look much different... I tend to lower the upper freq bands after I get them matched... only by a couple clicks...

 

[Rene Lou]

Is there a place where people are posting their PRIR for download. I found sander's and Rene's (by the way thank you) and tried manLOUD routines with both of them with varied results. Wondered if I could try with someone else's

There are more then 100 PRIR files available on Google Drive you can use with your A16 (PRIR2xxx format).

I have put all A8 files for reuse with an A16 in a folder called "2) A8 PRIR files for A16 (incl. converted PRIR0xxx files)", you will find it here: https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1R83ko4Skj0n44OQ5amRfDQKnJVMGXMdK

I made several directories on Google drive (see links in my closing): directory "1)..." contains all files of the former A8 dropbox folder. The A8 used two different formats:

1. PRIR0xxx files (these A8 files are to old to be reused by an A16, but can be converted with a newer A8 to the PRIR2xxx file format)
2. PRIR2xxx files (these files can be copied to an SD card and loaded into an A16, the A16 will convert them to the A16 format at the time of coping it into the internal A16 memory)

Comment to 1.):
I uploaded a list of PRIR0xxx files ('List of PRIR0xxx files to be converted (currently missing)', at the moment approx. 60 files) in directory "2)..." which need to be converted to the PRIR2xxx format still. After conversion to the PRIR2xxx format they can be reused with an A16 as well. If someone has an HDMI A8 at hand (and some spare time): please be so kind and convert these PRIR0xxx files (available in folder "1)...") with your HDMI A8 to the PRIR2xxx format and upload the PRIR2xxx files to Google Drive. I will copy them to the directory "2) A8 PRIR files for A16 (incl. converted PRIR0xxx files)" for others to reuse afterwards.

I uploaded the PRIR file... I think Rene has to move it from the upload area... ??

Comment to 2.):
1st of all: Thank you to Dixter for converting and uploading the file. Unfortunately it is limited to your A16 due to current A16 software limitations. Please be aware that if you are loading an A8 PRIR2xxx file into your A16 and save the converted A16 file to the SD card, the converted A16 file will be locked to your specific A16 unfortunately (similar as if you would have set 'Lock PRIRs' to "ON" in Settings -> System -> Measurement settings). This is true at least for the current A16 software version 1.75. If you save this converted file to the SD card this file can be used by your specific A16 only (serial number protected). This is the reason that I will not move your file to the folder "2)..." since the file is locked (when I try to copy your file to my A16, I get the message "Use of file unauthorized"). That I will not copy your file is not a problem for other A16 users since the source file (PRIR2088_DarinF_Macigo_Enigma_Tweeter.SVS) is available here: https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/19ZXOLCd_W3wLYj2LDZR4SS4ZqS3JKKHr

After all, some of the systems Darin includes are real show stoppers (Wilson Sasha, Focal Scala, Magico Q3s and Q7s, B&W 802 D3, Jm Nova Utopia Be, and Technicolor and AIX studios). If there's some way to restoring those rooms on OOYH to full BRIR quality, that would be a proverbial gold mine for Smyth users.

Darin used our A8 dropbox files as a source for his OOYH, so no need to convert OOYH files with the A16, just use the true original A8 files available to you for free on Google Drive. We (former A8 users including Darin) loaded all of those files for others to reuse on dropbox some years ago, so feel free to use them with the A16. Darin developed his OOYH software with some help of other A8 users and used the A8 as his reference. Darin by the way never asked us (A8 users) if he is allowed to reuse our free files and sell them for money. I leave it up to you what you think of it.

All the files are there (>100), just a short list ("gold mine" as you said):

• Wilson Audio Sasha
• MSM studio (several persons files)
• AIX studios B&W (several persons files)
  
• AIX studios JBL THX (several persons files)
• Magico
• Sonus Faber
• Focal Scala
• Focal JMlab Nova Utopia Be
• Genelec
• KEF
• B&W 804S
• Martin Logan Summit X
• Quad 57
• .....

Give it a try with your A16 - it's all free

If you want to share your own A16 PRIR file with others, just upload it to Google Drive and let me know.

 

[dsperber]

2. Send the output of the Realiser to (a device containing) an analog to digital converter with an optical spdif output. If your car system happens to have an optical input use that, otherwise use a portable or car battery powered device containing a optical spdif input and a DAC and analog output and connect that to the car aux input. Now it probably only depends on this last device whether there will be a buzz or not, and I suspect in most cases there won't. (The Realiser is now completely galvanically isolated from the car, if using power from somewhere else to power both the Realiser and the analog to digital converter.)

I actually do already have a small analog-to-digital converter (48KHz), which is powered by a 120V->5V AC/DC power adapter. It accepts RCA and puts out optical/coax. Corresponding small digital-to-analog converters (even with digital volume control) accepting optical/coax and putting out RCA are also available and inexpensive. Once again uses 120V->5V AC/DC power adapter. And then the L/R RCA output of the DAC could go to the 3.5mm input of the car.

Yes, this would galvanically isolate the Realiser from the car, which optimistically seems like it should eliminate the mysterious source of the buzz, which certainly seems like something electrical coming from the direct connection of RCA from the Realiser to the car. I point out that yesterday's buzz could be made louder or softer using the volume control of the car, as well as the volume control of the A8. So breaking the electrical connection via A-to-D and D-to-A does seem like a promising idea. Same concept as using in-line RF transformers to break a ground loop hum on a powered amp-driven coaxial cable connection for TV.

I wonder, though, about the new time delays imputed into the Realiser-to-microphones system as a result of the additional two conversion steps along the way. Even assuming zero buzz and normal operation of the sweep signals and microphones, wouldn't the the added delays affect the resulting PRIR in simulating the car's speakers? Wouldn't they appear to be much farther away from the perspective of the PRIR-creating algorithm, corresponding to the added time delay before the sound being received by the microphones? Could that be compensated for in some settings tweak?

Nevertheless, it's an idea that might work.

I can't help but believe the buzz when using the A8 directly is somehow tied to an output level issue. There is zero buzz when using my Cowon J3 3.5mm headphone output jack and a straight 3.5mm stereo cable to connect to the AUX input of the car. Only when going from the RCA outputs of the A8 to the 3.5mm AUX input of the car.

Also, I have a 50ft long 3.5mm extension (M-F) cable that I use to go from the RCA L/R "tape record output" of my home audio system preamp to the Realtek HD audio "line input" of my desktop PC's rear panel audio connectors, which I use when "transcribing" old vinyl 33 albums to digital files. My home audio system has a turntable, which feeds phono input to the preamp, which ups the level (to line-level) and feeds the RCA L/R "tape record output" to a 3.5mm male connector, connecting to the female end of the 50ft cable run to my PC where the male end plugs into "line input" of the PC. Then the analog-to-digital converter built into the Realtek audio is used (by CoolEdit, which I use to perform the digital recording of analog line-input to PCM) and the result is obviously 100% buzz-free.

This buzz-free all-analog home audio system application (with an analog volume control on the preamp to set the output level here which really is the recording input level) goes directly from RCA analog to line-level 3.5mm input on the PC, and seems identical in concept to what we tried to do with the A8 yesterday but which produced a buzz for some reason. All the levels here seem compatible, with a buzz-free result.

I wonder if the RCA output of the A8 is simply too high?

 

[Om ma Ni]

To correct this, I started to modify some bands above my hearing limit as well. Common knowledge is that you lose the ability to hear higher frequencies when getting older (approx. 2kHz for each 10 years of age). With an age of 55 one will have a typical upper hearing limit of approx. 9kHz. Working through the sub-band pink noise signals above a certain frequency I do not hear anything at all. Nevertheless, I lowered the next 2-3 higher sub-bands with 3 clicks each as well and the 'annoying treble picks' has gone away. Maybe you want to try this as well. You should be able to use your current manSPKR filter as starting point, set all bands to '0' and modify just the next 2-3 higher bands you do not hear (eg: 9 kHz+, depends on your age) set a little bit lower.
One more comment: when you have done a HPEQ which is perfect for you, you will not have to redo this for newer A16 PRIR's you are going to measure.

From my ears, when doing the manspk i could hear all of the sub band and found this EQ process a real pleasure to complete compared to ManloudEQ..So i don t know which high freq sub band should i manually lower at the end?
One BIG thing i found out is that after modding my HD800 with the superdupond mod, it finally damped this annoying treble pick (6khz) which was messing up everything ..
The thing is that the result of the autoEQ is still on the bright side which is not totally good bc it s supposed to Completely neutralize the sound signature of any HP...
"One more comment: when you have done a HPEQ which is perfect for you, you will not have to redo this for newer A16 PRIR's you are going to measure.." : could you please elaborate this point? I thought that we always needed to do a manspk for each different spk system PRIR captured bc of the different freq curve response of these system etc?

 

[audiohobbit]

I have just begun "programming" my A16 : presets active, auto EQ of headphones. I believe the next step would be manLoud (no idea).

But I have 3 questions :
1) when playing an Atmos DVD, I get Atmos all right when looking at the screen via the PA button on the remote. So far so good. However what shows on the top right of the screen is "(Atmos)". Why the brackets?

2) On the Menu screen, I see next to line 1 : "Presets A You Gene". And next to that : "HDMI!" in red. The same applies to line 2 for Presets B.
When I press on "Presets A You Gene" to go to the next screen : line 1 shows "Mode Movie" and audio source mentions HDMI 1 in white. Next to "Mode Movie" the same "HDMI !" appears in red. The same applies to line 2 for Presets B.

3) When playing a Dolby 5.1 the screen (via PA) shows also (Atmos). Why the brackets and also why not PCM since it is not an Atmos DVD?

Thank you.

1. There are no Atmos "DVDs". You mean Blu-Rays...
Would you have a look into the manual p. 36. The text in brackets refers to the listening room format (Atmos, PCM, or in future DTS-X).
2. See the last release notes https://wp.me/a9KNpp-rZ p. 6 ff.
3. Playing Dolby is also bitstream which the Realiser can decode, so no PCM (unless you let your source decode). For Dolby the Atmos room is used.

DTS can't be decoded at the moment, so your source has to decode this to PCM and send it to the Realiser. Then the PCM room will be used.

HOWEVER: When you use the Dolby Surround upmixer for PCM (there's a separate sub menu for PCM upmixing in the Preset setup), then the Atmos room is used and it shows (Atmos) again on the top right side.

 

[valleynomad]

Not specifically. But when the LEFT channel input is fed to the car's audio system however that sounds (via all the speakers of the car) to the microphones in my ears is what gets measured as the LEFT channel in the resulting PRIR. Same with feeding RIGHT channel input, as played through all the speakers of the car, ending up being the RIGHT channel in the resulting PRIR. A 2.0 PRIR only has two channels, so that's it.

The total set of speakers in a listening environment constitute what gets measured. If the room only has front L/R speakers and that's all that gets energized when LEFT channel input is fed to the electronics, then it's only the front L speaker which is reflected in the PRIR, etc. But if multiple speakers are energized together when the LEFT channel input is fed to the electronics (e.g. 5-channel STEREO or 7-channel STEREO in Yamaha AVR's, which feed the single input channel source to all of the "left front/side/rear speakers", etc.), then that's what the PRIR reflects.

So in the car whatever multiple speakers are energized for LEFT channel input, that's the LEFT channel of the PRIR. Same for right.

.............

OK, this makes sense. It is based on the idea that the SVS in this case simulates, instead of speakers, the entire audio "system" between the stereo input and listener's ear canal entrance. In this way you don't have to deal with those internally-generated channels (e.g. front/back/center) and their associated speakers.

The way SVS works is basically based on the linear systems theory ( https://www.cns.nyu.edu/~david/handouts/convolution.pdf ). Hopefully your audio system including HK electronics, speakers and MB cabin acoustics is linear enough so that the magic convolution works well

 

[valleynomad]

...
I wonder if the RCA output of the A8 is simply too high?

This is possible because you mentioned that it was quiet when in SOLO which rules out any connection issue...

 

[sander99]

I wonder, though, about the new time delays imputed into the Realiser-to-microphones system as a result of the additional two conversion steps along the way. Even assuming zero buzz and normal operation of the sweep signals and microphones, wouldn't the the added delays affect the resulting PRIR in simulating the car's speakers? Wouldn't they appear to be much farther away from the perspective of the PRIR-creating algorithm, corresponding to the added time delay before the sound being received by the microphones?

No, that doesn't matter. A constant extra delay, added equally to all (both in this case) channels doesn't change the perceived distance, and the realiser will also not "calculate" the distance to the speakers from this delay (it couldn't because there can always be extra delays in a measured system, for example individual speaker delays set in a surround receiver).
(If for example reflections would be delayed compared to the direct sound, then it could change the perceived distance, but that is not the case here.)

 

[sander99]

"One more comment: when you have done a HPEQ which is perfect for you, you will not have to redo this for newer A16 PRIR's you are going to measure.." : could you please elaborate this point? I thought that we always needed to do a manspk for each different spk system PRIR captured bc of the different freq curve response of these system etc?

Now you are confusing two different reasons for doing a manLOUD (or manSPKR):
1. If you want to create a HPEQ for use with a non-personal PRIR (which would be a BRIR for you) : In this case the objective of the manLOUD routine is to try to correct for the difference between your HRTF and the HRTF of the person or dummy head with which the PRIR was made. For this situation you would have to do another manLOUD for every other non-personal PRIR (unless maybe if you had two non-personal PRIRs made with the same person or dummy head, then you could use one manLOUD HPEQ for both these PRIRs).
2. If you want to create a HPEQ for use with your own personal made PRIR. Now it is just about correcting the imperfections of the AutoHPEQ routine. This would only have to be done once (for one headphone that is) and could be used with all your personal made PRIRs. (Only if you want to use different headphones you would need another manLOUD or manSPKR HPEQ for every other headphone).