[Fox1977]

I concur with @phoenixdogfan , you may download Out Of Your Head and give it a try if you play movies on your computer. It worked quite fine for me with the Magico preset.
The Creative X-Fi sounds interesting also but I never got to experience it.

 

[Jonesing4A16]

I got the NVIDIA shield Sunday. I've been setting it up, and it looks like a killer unit. It runs everything flawlessly, uses my VPN and upscales everything to 4k through AI. Have not hooked up to A16 yet, but through my speaker based system, everything seems impeccable. And it's dead quiet. I'm thinking about getting a second one so I can cut loose from my PC which sounds like a Pratt and Whitney jet turbine when doing any AV based work. I'm starting to think with a NVIDIA shield for video and Chromecast Audio for 2 channel audio, I can perhaps dispense with a media PC entirely. What I would maybe need for multi channel Netflix is a device which separates HDMI audio from video, passes the video to the TV via HDMI, and outputs USB for the multi channel audio. Anyone know of anything that does that and doesn't degrade sound?

Why not use the ubiquitous NVIDIA Shield which separates HDMI audio from video & passes the pristine audio over its USB 3.0 ports?

NVIDIA Shield advertised audio specs: https://www.nvidia.com/en-us/shield/shield-tv-pro/

Dolby Audio (Dolby Digital, Dolby Digital Plus, Dolby Atmos)
DTS-X surround sound (pass-through) over HDMI
High-resolution audio playback up to 24-bit/192 kHz over HDMI and USB
High-resolution audio up-sample to 24-bit/192 kHz over USB
Audio support: AAC, AAC+, eAAC+, MP3, WAVE, AMR, OGG Vorbis, FLAC, PCM, WMA, WMA-Pro, WMA-Lossless, Dolby Digital Plus, Dolby Atmos, Dolby TrueHD (pass-through), DTS-X (pass-through), and DTS-HD (pass-through)

 

[sander99]

Why not use the ubiquitous NVIDIA Shield which separates HDMI audio from video & passes the pristine audio over its USB 3.0 ports?

I am not sure but I am guessing that will only be 2 channel audio?

 

[illram]

The Realizer A16.. Just still a dream for many of us who have pre-ordered. This question is aimed for all who are still waiting for your A16. May I ask what are you using just now to get your surround sound. Not talking about surround sound amplifier and speaker set up, but about your surround headphone set up?

After giving all my cash to Smyth Research for my Realizer A16 I cannot afford to splash out on another large system so here is what I now have.

Sony UBPX800/M2 Player
Ezcoo EX11HAS-PRO HDMI 2.0 Audio Extractor (HDMI 2.0 Repeater Scaling & Audio (Use HDMI to optical Out, as Sony has no optical out)
An old Tritton AX Pro Surround Headphone System
It only gives me Dolby Digital and Dolby Prologic, but better than nothing.

I have had a new pair of Sennheiser 800S headphones bought over 2 years ago, boxed up ready, waiting for the day I finally receive my A16.

PS: YT video for EZCOO as some users may find it interesting and can change HDMI to Optical for Sound.

I'm using a Creative Super X-Fi dongle. To my ears it is as good as or better than Out of Your Head as far as virtualization is concerned (I can only speak to the presets though, never had Darin do a personalized one for me.) Its primary limitation is all of the various Super X-Fi products do not have line out, so you are limited to their amps, and having tested headphones on their list and not on their list, you should have a headphone on their list. Their dongle has gobs of power if we are just talking pure volume though. By example I can get my HD800S to ear bleeding levels out of it. I keep it at about 11 or 12 (out of 100) on the Windows volume. For games and movies it is great. Not trying to get into the rabbit hole of how to properly drive an HD800S, but since you own one, I can say purely in terms of "is that footstep behind me" or whatever the SX-Fi/HD800S combo is fantastic for that purpose. I mean your Senn's are sitting in a box unused, why not spend $150 for the chance to put those puppies to use?

There is also a program called impulcifier which is a command line based program that allows you to get a speaker based personalization ala the Realiser. I think there is a thread here. Might have even been linked to in this thread earlier? It is obviously more complicated and you'd need your own ear and room microphones, and I think it is limited to 7.1. I personally skipped it as the SX-Fi dongle is super easy and performing very well for me.

 

[sander99]

There is also a program called impulcifier which is a command line based program that allows you to get a speaker based personalization ala the Realiser. I think there is a thread here.

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/recording-impulse-responses-for-speaker-virtualization.890719/
https://github.com/jaakkopasanen/Impulcifer

 

[Litlgi74]

I am working on a pretty significant project for my Realiser... and I have run across some potential problems... Maybe someone might help me figure this out

First... Look at this 7.1.4 diagram from Dolby.

Notice the Bed Layer (Ear Level) Channels (not specifically labeled) used... L, R, C, SW, Ls, Rs, Lrs, Rrs


also from Dolby... with specific speaker labels.

The same here... L, R, C, SW, Ls, Rs, Lrs, Rrs

Now, look at the Bed Layer (Ear Level) Channels used by the Realiser...

It appears the surrounds and rear surrounds are not the same labels used by Dolby.

So if the speaker labels assigned to the Realiser for 7.1.4 don't match the official speaker labels assigned by Dolby... what happens?

I found this in the manual.


This is not the only example.
I plan on bringing this up to the Smyths.


But then I find this when using the MediaInfo Tool on a 7.1.4 Dolby Test file...


and these don't match labels used by Dolby either... ugh!

... if the MediaInfo Channel layout is correct... why is the A16 using Lss and Rss instead of Ls and Rs? I've checked quite a few blu-rays... All use the Ls and Rs.

 

[Eich1eeF]

I want it b/c I have an Octo DAC8 Pro on order, and it has a USB input which will allow for 8 channels of ultra high quality digital audio conversion and preamplification.

Upgrade yout A16 to the AES version, use AES instead of USB. Or one of those Meridian devices that Kal mentioned.

 

[sander99]

@Litlgi74, my take on this:
What Smyth is saying in the manual is that:
For example if you want to create an Atmos room you have to choose one of the available listening modes in the table in 11 Appendix A (the mode in the second column), and then in that listening room you can only use the labels that are mentioned behind that listening mode in the table.
For example look at row 45, mode 7.1.4. You have to use the labels mentioned in that row. So Lss and Rss and not Ls or Rs.
It is only relevant for the A16 itself, how it can select speakers from PRIRs for a particular listening room.
I don't think there will be any problem when Dolby uses another label.

(By the way: Of course the manual was written before there was a 24 channel mode, so for the new listening modes available in 24 channel mode we can't use this table. But I suspect you can just go into the listening room menu, choose a listening mode and see what labels are in the list.)

 

[kh36267]

The Realizer A16.. Just still a dream for many of us who have pre-ordered. This question is aimed for all who are still waiting for your A16. May I ask what are you using just now to get your surround sound. Not talking about surround sound amplifier and speaker set up, but about your surround headphone set up?

After giving all my cash to Smyth Research for my Realizer A16 I cannot afford to splash out on another large system so here is what I now have.

Sony UBPX800/M2 Player
Ezcoo EX11HAS-PRO HDMI 2.0 Audio Extractor (HDMI 2.0 Repeater Scaling & Audio (Use HDMI to optical Out, as Sony has no optical out)
An old Tritton AX Pro Surround Headphone System
It only gives me Dolby Digital and Dolby Prologic, but better than nothing.

I have had a new pair of Sennheiser 800S headphones bought over 2 years ago, boxed up ready, waiting for the day I finally receive my A16.

PS: YT video for EZCOO as some users may find it interesting and can change HDMI to Optical for Sound.

i still use my Beyerdynamic Headzone headphone amplifier w/virtual surround sound in my bedroom (the A16 is out in the living room). It was what I was using for several years prior to the A16 showing up. It drives the HD 800 or HD 800 S headphones extremely well and the 5.1 surround sound is very immersive.

 

[Litlgi74]

@Litlgi74, my take on this:
What Smyth is saying in the manual is that:
For example if you want to create an Atmos room you have to choose one of the available listening modes in the table in 11 Appendix A (the mode in the second column), and then in that listening room you can only use the labels that are mentioned behind that listening mode in the table.
For example look at row 45, mode 7.1.4. You have to use the labels mentioned in that row. So Lss and Rss and not Ls or Rs.
It is only relevant for the A16 itself, how it can select speakers from PRIRs for a particular listening room.
I don't think there will be any problem when Dolby uses another label.

(By the way: Of course the manual was written before there was a 24 channel mode, so for the new listening modes available in 24 channel mode we can't use this table. But I suspect you can just go into the listening room menu, choose a listening mode and see what labels are in the list.)

@sander99... For now, I am only referencing 16 channel modes. What's interesting is that any listening room at 5.2.6 channels or less uses the Ls and Rs label. Above that channel configuration... Ls and Rs are no longer used.... But rather Lss and Rss.

I've now checked dozens of 5.1 and 7.1 TrueHD BluRays... all of them have the Ls and Rs and not one has Lss and Rss. I have yet to find any Dolby format with Lss and Rss... but I'll keep looking.

So I am wondering what happens to the Ls and Rs audio that is sent to the Realiser?

Just for giggles... I checked a few 7.1 DTSHD-MA disk... So far, they are the only disks I've found with Lss and Rss.



A few weeks back, I spent hours looking at every listening room combination. I compiled an excel spreadsheet of all speaker labels used for each listening room, all the way up to the last 24 channel mode room... After 5.2.6... Ls and Rs are no longer used.

* Maybe Ls and Rs are interchangeable with Lss and Rss...

I've emailed the Smyths.. we shall see.

 

[1m1a]

I'd like to run the A16 in AV mode sometimes. I'm planning to install 7.1.4 speakers but I'm wondering if I have the option to do a phantom center speaker rather than have an actual speaker there. The way my room is laid out a center speaker would block part of the screen. I looked in the manual but so far I didn't see any mention of it.

 

[sander99]

I'd like to run the A16 in AV mode sometimes. I'm planning to install 7.1.4 speakers but I'm wondering if I have the option to do a phantom center speaker rather than have an actual speaker there. The way my room is laid out a center speaker would block part of the screen. I looked in the manual but so far I didn't see any mention of it.

First: beware that you won't be able to set delays for the speakers with the A16, and it also can not (yet) do room correction EQ. (Contrary to what I said in the past it is possible to change the individual speaker levels with the gain setting in the listening rooms it seems, my apologies for that.)

For Atmos with phantom center you have to choose one of the few listening modes that doesn't use a center.
See page 90 of the manual: 11 Appendix A: 11.1 Listening rooms loudspeaker configurations Dolby Atmos Listening Rooms loudspeaker configurations.
6.0.2m, 6.1.2m, and 6.2.2m are the only options for you then (2m means that you use the 2 middle top speakers), unfortunately there aren't any choices with 4 top speakers.

For DTS the options seem even more limited, but for sure there are mistakes in the table (11.2) for DTS (and maybe in the firmware itself also) so it is hard to be sure.

For PCM the options are even more limited, plus I am not even sure the A16 would downmix PCM if the input signal contains more channels than the listening room. Maybe it will just ignore the extra channels.

Alternatively you could add some equipment that takes the analog outputs for L, R, and C and mixes the center channel (-3 dB) into your main L and R channels. In that case you can simply choose any listening mode with or without center as long as the other channels besides the center match your setup.

I am planning to use 4 small DSP boxes each with 4 analog inputs and 4 analog outputs, to do level, delay and PEQ. If L, R, C, and SW are connected to the inputs of one of the same DSP box it could also do this downmix (in fact I am going to do this with the SW signal, I don't have a sub so I let the DSP box mix it (-3 dB)into L and R. (In some scenarios the A16 could also do this, but this way I don't have to worry about that.)

Maybe good if I explain the -3 dB:
-3 dB equals halving the power. If 2 speakers play the same signal at -3 dB then that is two times half power: so back at the starting level.

 

[audiohobbit]

Maybe Ls and Rs are interchangeable with Lss and Rss...

Not for the Realiser A16.
The labels listed in the specific listening rooms are mandarory. The tables in the appendix have some errors, for example the 7.1.4 you listed above misses the top rear speakers.

When the manual came out and I had my A16 I've been going through all listening rooms in the Realiser and wrote down all the differences to the manual, and sent the list to Smyth (list with all manual errors I found is in the thread linked in my signature).

As far as I saw the listening rooms in the Realiser seemed to be correct, only the manual has errors.


Concerning Dolby: When at first there was only 5.1, there were only surround speakers, ideally somewhere slightly behind the listener, at 100 to 120 degrees.
Then 7.1 came out, and those surrounds got the side surrounds, and rear or back surrounds where added.
If a 5.1 signal is played on a 7.1 system, the signal of the surrounds now just go to the (now) side surrounds only, without upmixing..

Therefore I think Dolby kept the labels of those speakers as Ls and Rs.

As you see DTS seems to use different labels. Since you want to use same virtual speakers with different sound formats in the Realiser they had to find a compromise. So a 7.x room in Dolby, Dts and PCM all have the same labels for the ear level speakers, L C R SW Lss Rss Lb Rb. True even up to 9.1.6, with Lw Rw (the wides which normal DTSX doesn't use, and the Dolby Surround upmixer doesn't use) and Ltf Rtf Ltm Rtm Ltr Rtr (where DTSX doesn't use the top mids).

In 5.x configurations the surrounds for all format are labeled Ls and Rs. They should be ideally at a different angle. However angle recommendations are totally wild throughout the formats, and the table in the Realiser appendix is not "correct" either.

My guideline is always side surrounds at 90, back surrounds at 150 and surrounds for 5.1 at 120 degrees, so between sides and backs.
This is why we created in a PRIR session in Jan. last year a virtual speaker every 30 deg.
So we had dedicated surrounds for 5.1 at 120 deg.

A compromise for a 7.x setup is to have the side surrounds at about 100-110 deg max, so if a 5.1 signal is played without upmixing the surround signal only goes to the side surrounds and you still will have some envelopment behind you.

Even with upmixing (at least from the Dolby surround upmixer) there will be no phantom source between sides and backs, the majority of the surround sound of a 5.1 signal comes from the side surrounds. Only parts of the signal that are somehow on both surrounds will be played by th backs.

I think the DTS upmixer does a better job here but I'm not sure. I read about this and suppose my Bluray (Pana 424 UHD) player does this automatically. I set it to convert DTS to PCM because the realiser still don't decode DTS and even with a 5.1 master it delivers 7.1 where there seems to be more mixed to the backs than the Dolby upmixer does.


PS: And always keep in mind that, unfortunately, we can not change the label of a virtual speaker in a PRIR after recording.
A Ls or Rs will always be Ls or Rs and can not be used in 7.x. setups etc.!
I suppose it would have been not so hard to implement a function for relabeling or copying virtual speakers, which would come in handy, esp. for the 24 ch versions where you have speakers like Lrs1 and so on, and if they are ear enough to let's say a recorded Ls, you then just could duplicate and relabel that speaker and use it.

I suppose Stephen could do this on his PC. Would be strange if not.
But he didn't implement it for the users though.

 

[audiohobbit]

For PCM the options are even more limited, plus I am not even sure the A16 would downmix PCM if the input signal contains more channels than the listening room. Maybe it will just ignore the extra channels.

I think I tested tbis and with PCM it definitely does not.
Even for Dolby please do the test again, I'm not totally sure at the moment.

As it is at the present, the A16 is not really usable as an AV preamp.
I'd always use a real AVR for that.

 

[Litlgi74]

Not for the Realiser A16.
The labels listed in the specific listening rooms are mandarory. The tables in the appendix have some errors, for example the 7.1.4 you listed above misses the top rear speakers.

When the manual came out and I had my A16 I've been going through all listening rooms in the Realiser and wrote down all the differences to the manual, and sent the list to Smyth (list with all manual errors I found is in the thread linked in my signature).

As far as I saw the listening rooms in the Realiser seemed to be correct, only the manual has errors.


Concerning Dolby: When at first there was only 5.1, there were only surround speakers, ideally somewhere slightly behind the listener, at 100 to 120 degrees.
Then 7.1 came out, and those surrounds got the side surrounds, and rear or back surrounds where added.
If a 5.1 signal is played on a 7.1 system, the signal of the surrounds now just go to the (now) side surrounds only, without upmixing..

Therefore I think Dolby kept the labels of those speakers as Ls and Rs.

As you see DTS seems to use different labels. Since you want to use same virtual speakers with different sound formats in the Realiser they had to find a compromise. So a 7.x room in Dolby, Dts and PCM all have the same labels for the ear level speakers, L C R SW Lss Rss Lb Rb. True even up to 9.1.6, with Lw Rw (the wides which normal DTSX doesn't use, and the Dolby Surround upmixer doesn't use) and Ltf Rtf Ltm Rtm Ltr Rtr (where DTSX doesn't use the top mids).

In 5.x configurations the surrounds for all format are labeled Ls and Rs. They should be ideally at a different angle. However angle recommendations are totally wild throughout the formats, and the table in the Realiser appendix is not "correct" either.

My guideline is always side surrounds at 90, back surrounds at 150 and surrounds for 5.1 at 120 degrees, so between sides and backs.
This is why we created in a PRIR session in Jan. last year a virtual speaker every 30 deg.
So we had dedicated surrounds for 5.1 at 120 deg.

A compromise for a 7.x setup is to have the side surrounds at about 100-110 deg max, so if a 5.1 signal is played without upmixing the surround signal only goes to the side surrounds and you still will have some envelopment behind you.

Even with upmixing (at least from the Dolby surround upmixer) there will be no phantom source between sides and backs, the majority of the surround sound of a 5.1 signal comes from the side surrounds. Only parts of the signal that are somehow on both surrounds will be played by th backs.

I think the DTS upmixer does a better job here but I'm not sure. I read about this and suppose my Bluray (Pana 424 UHD) player does this automatically. I set it to convert DTS to PCM because the realiser still don't decode DTS and even with a 5.1 master it delivers 7.1 where there seems to be more mixed to the backs than the Dolby upmixer does.


PS: And always keep in mind that, unfortunately, we can not change the label of a virtual speaker in a PRIR after recording.
A Ls or Rs will always be Ls or Rs and can not be used in 7.x. setups etc.!
I suppose it would have been not so hard to implement a function for relabeling or copying virtual speakers, which would come in handy, esp. for the 24 ch versions where you have speakers like Lrs1 and so on, and if they are ear enough to let's say a recorded Ls, you then just could duplicate and relabel that speaker and use it.

I suppose Stephen could do this on his PC. Would be strange if not.
But he didn't implement it for the users though.

Thanks for the reply... but I think you may have missed my core question... So if a Blu-ray sends the Dolby L R C LFE Ls Rs Lb Rb (confirmed by MediaInfo) channels to the Realiser... what happens to the Ls and Rs channels? Specifically if the listening room has no Ls or Rs channels and only Lss and Rss channels?

I’ve sent you a PM if you’d prefer to chat there.