Smyth Research Realiser A16

[harryb]

I'm testing a bunch of sources into my A16 and would love to get some input from some of the superusers here. I'm using John T's 3D Soundshop Omega 96 Pro PRIR which is simply amazing, with both HD800s and Audeze LCD 5 HPEQ's. What a pleasure John is to work with. Remarkably helpful and very responsive. I've purchased essentially all of his PRIR's and I find the product to be of very high quality. Also, I'm outputting a digital stream from the A16 to a dCS Rossini Apex so I'm not using the internal DA converter. Here are the current sources I have running into the A16:

HDMI 1 - AppleTV
HDMI 2 - Mele Quieter4 minipc (from smallgreencomputer) with Roon Rock as a Roon endpoint
HDMI 3 - Zidoo z9x
HDMI 4 - Amazon Fire TV Cube

A few comments:

(1) AppleTV works great with Apple Music controlled from iPhone, iPad, or directly from TV with remote. Sends Dolby Atmos as MAT to the A16 which accepts the signal and decodes as Atmos. Sends 2 channel PCM which gets received by the A16 as 2 channel, and i have that up mixing to Auro3D. However, when I use the AppleTV as an endpoint for Roon, it incorrectly sends or the A16 incorrectly receives 2 channel PCM as MAT, and the A16 reads DolbyAtmos and plays it as 2 channel. Because it thinks it is Atmos, it won't upmix to Auro3D. I know this is confusing but I don't know how else to describe it. I know the AppleTV can correctly distinguish 2 channel PCM from Atmos becuase it is able to do this from Apple Music.

(2) The Mele Quieter4 minipc works well as a Roon endpoint for 2 channel or multichannel pcm from Roon. Of course, Roon can't handle bitstream DolbyAtmos from Tidal or QoBuz.

(3) The Zidoo z9x is "roon ready" and can be used as Roon endpoint and works perfectly. I also have a couple of 8TB hard drives with hi-def and multichannel music and the Zidoo handles pretty much anything you can throw at it.

(4) Fire Cube works well with Amazon Music which has a nice catalog of DolbyAtmos now. When I control the FireCube from a connected TV it sends the Atmos bitstream correctly to the A16. However when I bring up Amazon Music on my phone and cast to the FireCube Atmos content plays as UltraHD and not Atmos. The signal shows up to the A16 as 2 channel PCM (which I have upmixing to Auro 3D).

I'd love to find a single device that does all I want it to. No such luck so far. Very open to comments and suggestions.

 

[3D Ears]

I'm testing a bunch of sources into my A16 and would love to get some input from some of the superusers here. I'm using John T's 3D Soundshop Omega 96 Pro PRIR which is simply amazing, with both HD800s and Audeze LCD 5 HPEQ's. What a pleasure John is to work with. Remarkably helpful and very responsive. I've purchased essentially all of his PRIR's and I find the product to be of very high quality. Also, I'm outputting a digital stream from the A16 to a dCS Rossini Apex so I'm not using the internal DA converter. Here are the current sources I have running into the A16:

HDMI 1 - AppleTV
HDMI 2 - Mele Quieter4 minipc (from smallgreencomputer) with Roon Rock as a Roon endpoint
HDMI 3 - Zidoo z9x
HDMI 4 - Amazon Fire TV Cube

A few comments:

(1) AppleTV works great with Apple Music controlled from iPhone, iPad, or directly from TV with remote. Sends Dolby Atmos as MAT to the A16 which accepts the signal and decodes as Atmos. Sends 2 channel PCM which gets received by the A16 as 2 channel, and i have that up mixing to Auro3D. However, when I use the AppleTV as an endpoint for Roon, it incorrectly sends or the A16 incorrectly receives 2 channel PCM as MAT, and the A16 reads DolbyAtmos and plays it as 2 channel. Because it thinks it is Atmos, it won't upmix to Auro3D. I know this is confusing but I don't know how else to describe it. I know the AppleTV can correctly distinguish 2 channel PCM from Atmos becuase it is able to do this from Apple Music.

(2) The Mele Quieter4 minipc works well as a Roon endpoint for 2 channel or multichannel pcm from Roon. Of course, Roon can't handle bitstream DolbyAtmos from Tidal or QoBuz.

(3) The Zidoo z9x is "roon ready" and can be used as Roon endpoint and works perfectly. I also have a couple of 8TB hard drives with hi-def and multichannel music and the Zidoo handles pretty much anything you can throw at it.

(4) Fire Cube works well with Amazon Music which has a nice catalog of DolbyAtmos now. When I control the FireCube from a connected TV it sends the Atmos bitstream correctly to the A16. However when I bring up Amazon Music on my phone and cast to the FireCube Atmos content plays as UltraHD and not Atmos. The signal shows up to the A16 as 2 channel PCM (which I have upmixing to Auro 3D).

I'd love to find a single device that does all I want it to. No such luck so far. Very open to comments and suggestions.

How about the NVIDIA Shield TV Pro 2019?

 

[harryb]

How about the NVIDIA Shro 2019?

Do you have any experience with it with the A16. I've heard some mixed reviews.

 

[SpatialJunky]

I'm testing a bunch of sources into my A16 and would love to get some input from some of the superusers here. I'm using John T's 3D Soundshop Omega 96 Pro PRIR which is simply amazing, with both HD800s and Audeze LCD 5 HPEQ's. What a pleasure John is to work with. Remarkably helpful and very responsive. I've purchased essentially all of his PRIR's and I find the product to be of very high quality. Also, I'm outputting a digital stream from the A16 to a dCS Rossini Apex so I'm not using the internal DA converter. Here are the current sources I have running into the A16:

HDMI 1 - AppleTV
HDMI 2 - Mele Quieter4 minipc (from smallgreencomputer) with Roon Rock as a Roon endpoint
HDMI 3 - Zidoo z9x
HDMI 4 - Amazon Fire TV Cube

A few comments:

(1) AppleTV works great with Apple Music controlled from iPhone, iPad, or directly from TV with remote. Sends Dolby Atmos as MAT to the A16 which accepts the signal and decodes as Atmos. Sends 2 channel PCM which gets received by the A16 as 2 channel, and i have that up mixing to Auro3D. However, when I use the AppleTV as an endpoint for Roon, it incorrectly sends or the A16 incorrectly receives 2 channel PCM as MAT, and the A16 reads DolbyAtmos and plays it as 2 channel. Because it thinks it is Atmos, it won't upmix to Auro3D. I know this is confusing but I don't know how else to describe it. I know the AppleTV can correctly distinguish 2 channel PCM from Atmos becuase it is able to do this from Apple Music.

(2) The Mele Quieter4 minipc works well as a Roon endpoint for 2 channel or multichannel pcm from Roon. Of course, Roon can't handle bitstream DolbyAtmos from Tidal or QoBuz.

(3) The Zidoo z9x is "roon ready" and can be used as Roon endpoint and works perfectly. I also have a couple of 8TB hard drives with hi-def and multichannel music and the Zidoo handles pretty much anything you can throw at it.

(4) Fire Cube works well with Amazon Music which has a nice catalog of DolbyAtmos now. When I control the FireCube from a connected TV it sends the Atmos bitstream correctly to the A16. However when I bring up Amazon Music on my phone and cast to the FireCube Atmos content plays as UltraHD and not Atmos. The signal shows up to the A16 as 2 channel PCM (which I have upmixing to Auro 3D).

I'd love to find a single device that does all I want it to. No such luck so far. Very open to comments and suggestions.

I don't use Roon and I'm not able to suggest a single source device that does it all.

I maybe have a couple of potential workarounds for the Apple TV4k that might work:

1. When sourcing 2-channel content that you don’t want interpreted as Atmos, you might try going into the ATV4k settings and changing the following:
Settings > Video and Audio > Audio Format (probably currently set to “Auto”) > Change Format > New Format > Select “Stereo”
Selecting Dolby Digital 5.1 might also work if you have selected Auro as the upmixer for that format.

2. I don’t own one of these, and have never tested them, but you might be able to use an HD Fury product to conditionally change the EDID to force the ATV4k to deliver a signal that is properly interpreted by the Realizer as one that should be upmixed by Auro. Others on this thread can undoubtedly provide better insight.
https://hdfury.com/product/dr-hdmi-4k/
https://hdfury.com/product/dr-hdmi-8k/

3. You could put an HDMI switch featuring TOSLINK downmixing between the ATV4k and the Realizer. There are many product options, here's just one:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08CDMQ852?ref_=ppx_hzsearch_conn_dt_b_fed_asin_title_3
You could then route the TOSLINK output of the HDMI switch to the TOSLINK input of the Realizer and use it as the Source input.
Note: This switch is not capable of downmixing a true Atmos signal, and when asked to do so, it generates very loud digital noise. Due to your uncertainty regarding the actual source of this problem, you would need to determine how the switch interprets the signal emanating from the ATV4k when using Roon.

 

[harryb]

1. When sourcing 2-channel content that you don’t want interpreted as Atmos, you might try going into the ATV4k settings and changing the following:
Settings > Video and Audio > Audio Format (probably currently set to “Auto”) > Change Format > New Format > Select “Stereo”
Selecting Dolby Digital 5.1 might also work if you have selected Auro as the upmixer for that format.

Wouldn't this mean that I need to go into settings and make that change any time I want to use Roon as the source.....and then go in and switch back any time I want to use Apple Music as a source? Same for if i select Dolby Digital 5.1 and then want to play Atmos from Apple Music.

The other suggestions would likely work too, but I already have a fairly simple workaround by going to HDMI 2 as my roon endpoint. It sends 2ch PCM to the A16. I'm hoping to find a solution where I don't have to switch inputs. I'm lazy

 

[SpatialJunky]

Wouldn't this mean that I need to go into settings and make that change any time I want to use Roon as the source.....and then go in and switch back any time I want to use Apple Music as a source? Same for if i select Dolby Digital 5.1 and then want to play Atmos from Apple Music.

Yes, that is the downside, and that would be too much human intervention for me.

Optimally, there would be a solution that operated on an automatic basis, transparent to the user.

Failing that, the only other solutions I can think of are Options 2 and 3 above.

- An EDID manager with a simple Engage/Disengage switch would be better than 'menu diving' on an ATV4k (not sure if the HD Fury products work that way).

- Or, using the TOSLINK downmixing feature of an inexpensive HDMI Matrix Switch might work, assuming the signal is not interpreted by the switch as being Atmos. But that approach requires changing the source input on the Realizer.

 

[harryb]

Yes, that is the downside, and that would be too much human intervention for me.

Optimally, there would be a solution that operated on an automatic basis, transparent to the user.

Failing that, the only other solutions I can think of are Options 2 and 3 above.

- An EDID manager with a simple Engage/Disengage switch would be better than 'menu diving' on an ATV4k (not sure if the HD Fury products work that way).

- Or, using the TOSLINK downmixing feature of an inexpensive HDMI Matrix Switch might work, assuming the signal is not interpreted by the switch as being Atmos. But that approach requires changing the source input on the Realizer.

Thanks, I really appreciate your thoughts. I already have a toslink running from my AV receiver to the A16, so another option is to use that for Roon. Problem there is that I need to remember to turn down the volume on the AV receiver, or it also plays through my speakers. So again, a lot of manipulations.

 

[SpatialJunky]

Of course, you could also use a combination of Options 2 and 3 and simply hit one button to make this work:


ATV4k
|
|
HDMI 1x2 Splitter
| |
| |
| EDID Manager (HD Fury?)
| |
| |
HDMI 4k Switch (You only need 2x1 but you could also use the matrix switch I linked)
|
|
A16 Realizer HDMI Input


This approach allows you to hit one button on the HDMI Switch.

- No ATV4k menu diving
- No Realiser input changes
- No volume changes on any device

The inexpensive matrix switcher I linked has an inbuilt EDID manager -- so you might be able to just purchase 2 of them to make this configuration work.
Obviously, it needs to be tested.

 

[harryb]

Of course, you could also use a combination of Options 2 and 3 and simply hit one button to make this work:


ATV4k
|
|
HDMI 1x2 Splitter
| |
| |
| EDID Manager (HD Fury?)
| |
| |
HDMI 4k Switch (You only need 2x1 but you could also use the matrix switch I linked)
|
|
A16 Realizer HDMI Input


This approach allows you to hit one button on the HDMI Switch.

- No ATV4k menu diving
- No Realiser input changes
- No volume changes on any device

The inexpensive matrix switcher I linked has an inbuilt EDID manager -- so you might be able to just purchase 2 of them to make this configuration work.
Obviously, it needs to be tested.

I like the way you think.....this would probably work. Gotta think about whether it's worth the additional cabling and devices vs. the aggravation of switching HDMI inputs. I also wish i knew whether the problem whether the 2 channel PCM landing in the A16 as Dolby Atmos MAT is an AppleTV issue or a receptive problem in the A16.

 

[SpatialJunky]

I imagine you've already researched this, but Google's AI bot reports this:

The Roon app on Apple TV 4K can output Dolby Atmos, but not directly through the Apple TV's processing. Roon can stream multi-channel PCM and SACD, but not Dolby Atmos, Dolby TrueHD, or DTS directly. Apple TV 4K outputs Dolby Atmos as Dolby MAT, which is essentially PCM Multichannel with a spatial audio substream.
​

Here's why and how it works:​

Roon's Role:​

Roon primarily focuses on playing high-quality music formats. It can handle multichannel audio, but not the specific Dolby Atmos bitstream.

​

Apple TV 4K's Role:​

The Apple TV 4K receives the Roon output and, in some cases, converts it to Dolby Atmos for compatible systems, according to one Reddit thread. It does this by using Dolby MAT, which is a form of PCM that carries the Atmos metadata.​

Knowing the actual culprit in this equation would be interesting and maybe satisfying -- but it's not actionable information.

At the end of the day, you're still left with the requirement of circumventing the problem.

Good luck.

 

[harryb]

I imagine you've already researched this, but Google's AI bot reports this:

The Roon app on Apple TV 4K can output Dolby Atmos, but not directly through the Apple TV's processing. Roon can stream multi-channel PCM and SACD, but not Dolby Atmos, Dolby TrueHD, or DTS directly. Apple TV 4K outputs Dolby Atmos as Dolby MAT, which is essentially PCM Multichannel with a spatial audio substream.
Here's why and how it works:
Roon's Role:Roon primarily focuses on playing high-quality music formats. It can handle multichannel audio, but not the specific Dolby Atmos bitstream.
Apple TV 4K's Role:The Apple TV 4K receives the Roon output and, in some cases, converts it to Dolby Atmos for compatible systems, according to one Reddit thread. It does this by using Dolby MAT, which is a form of PCM that carries the Atmos metadata.
Knowing the actual culprit in this equation would be interesting and maybe satisfying -- but it's not actionable information.

At the end of the day, you're still left with the requirement of circumventing the problem.

Good luck.

Yes, I've done a good bit of research. Not expecting Roon to output DolbyAtmos either from files or Tidal or QoBuz. I'm fine with Roon sending 2 channel PCM to the AppleTV. The problem is when AppleTV converts 2 Channel PCM to to Atmos MAT or the A16 sees it as MAT. Then I'm stuck with a 2 channel signal that the A16 will not up mix. Having said that, the 2 channel MAT Atmos that the A16 is putting out sounds pretty good, but it is not immersive.

 

[SpatialJunky]

Yes, I've understood your plight and use case from the beginning. If it were me, I would opt for the last solution discussed.

 

[harryb]

Does anybody keep a list of known bugs/irregularities on here to share with the Smyths?

I'll start one here:

(1) Stereo mix down from Auro3D is only sporadically functional, and when it does work it provides a very unusual mix that does not sound like a stereo mix down from 3D. Stereo mix down does work correctly for Dolby Atmos. I have heard from others of the same problem.

(2) When using AppleTV as a Roon endpoint the signal arrives to the A16 via HDMI as DolbyAtmos MAT. The A16 the provides just the L and R channels. Because the A16 thinks it is Atmos, it will not up mix to Auro3D if that is desired. It is not clear to me if this is an issue of Apple TV electing to output the 2 channel PCM delivered from Roon as MAT or whether it is an A16 issue.

 

[msmouse]

Okay.. Forgive my laziness of not reading the thread through.. but if I spend 350 bucks on 3dsoundshop, should it be the 35 + 65 Omega bundle or the 96 pro bundle?

And forgive me for the laziness of not reading the manual through.. but is there a mode to use the head tracker without putting up the led thing on top of the screen? (how do people do that for a project screen anyway?) (The manual says it has two stabilization modes but it didn't say setting up the set top device is optional.. well I guess I should be diligent and try it myself. Exhausted today . )

Sorry and thanks!

 

[harryb]

Okay.. Forgive my laziness of not reading the thread through.. but if I spend 350 bucks on 3dsoundshop, should it be the 35 + 65 Omega bundle or the 96 pro bundle?

And forgive me for the laziness of not reading the manual through.. but is there a mode to use the head tracker without putting up the led thing on top of the screen? (how do people do that for a project screen anyway?) (The manual says it has two stabilization modes but it didn't say setting up the set top device is optional.. well I guess I should be diligent and try it myself. Exhausted today . )

Sorry and thanks!

If you’re going to get one, trust me and get Omega Pro. I’m not currently using head tracking. I listen almost exclusively to music and am not generally moving my head much.