Ok so I'm probably not going to help you at all here, Yes, these are more accurate and tonally correct than the $799 Focal Bathys, $699 B&W PX8, and $599 M&D MW75. I haven't heard the $1000 ML 5909 in a while, but from memory, these are up there with those but without the extra sizzle in the highs. These are seriously REALLY good for $329, and the noise filtering on the mic is really great for gaming or conference calls. I'm LOVING these so far.
I think this really speaks to how much of a factor geometry and scale of the headphone are in sound quality.
Closed backs are already limited compared to open, but then you add the portability constraint which demands cup size is small and it becomes even more difficult. The Maxwell are big bois, kind of similar size of Elegia right?
Id like to hear the engineer's thoughts on this, but after comparing Bathys to Celestee/Elegia/Stellia I really feel it's a serious factor. Bathys has a really similar driver to the other focal closed headphones, but about one third the volume in the cup, and its filled with electronics too. That limitation surely explains the huge divide in sound between a Bathys and a Celestee, and potentially between the much cheaper Maxwell and more expensive closed Bt headphones too.
I think this really speaks to how much of a factor geometry and scale of the headphone are in sound quality.
Closed backs are already limited compared to open, but then you add the portability constraint which demands cup size is small and it becomes even more difficult. The Maxwell are big bois, kind of similar size of Elegia right?
Id like to hear the engineer's thoughts on this, but after comparing Bathys to Celestee/Elegia/Stellia I really feel it's a serious factor. Bathys has a really similar driver to the other focal closed headphones, but about one third the volume in the cup, and its filled with electronics too. That limitation surely explains the huge divide in sound between a Bathys and a Celestee, and potentially between the much cheaper Maxwell and more expensive closed Bt headphones too.
This really also explains why the (current) elite extreme-fi wireless/wired hybrid headphones, Mark Levinson No 5909 and T+A Solitaire T, are engineered to be as incredible in sonics using mechanical voicing despite also having electronic equipment built into the earcups.
Regarding @Maukey's and my Solitaire T, T+A engineered the headphones as the best natural sounding cans fully passively (analog) first, with electronics built in but switched off.
Then they voiced the electronics to closely match the passive performance.
Mark Levinson did a very similar style of engineering.
On the other hand, most high-end wireless cans, including Focal Bathys, B&O PX8, and mainstream high-end cans such as Sony WH-1000XM5 and Sennheiser Momentum Wireless 4, use DSP alongside the transducer to get the final sound voicing (electronics on).
Except the Bathys, the other cans have a significant change in sound (lesser) when used passively, because those transducers were not voiced fully mechanically in passive mode, and not voiced to match electronics DSP performance either. They are competent when used passively, but sadly this is more of a convince feature until the headphones are charged.
This shows the power and strength of DSP, as well as its weaknesses, alongside why it is so costly to voice mechanically too.
It also explains where research and development goes for different manufacturers, their goals, and who they are marketing to.
That said, despite my love for my T+A Solitaire T (I am totally enamoured by these cans, especially in passive balanced mode or Bluetooth HQ when commuting), I cannot deny how impressive DSP can be when utilised in headphones such as Sony WH-1000XM5. I bought the Sony's for a friend, and her opinions when listening to music, such as Meute (techno marching band) has been illuminating on positives, whilst offering useful convenience for her usage needs.
I think this really speaks to how much of a factor geometry and scale of the headphone are in sound quality.
Closed backs are already limited compared to open, but then you add the portability constraint which demands cup size is small and it becomes even more difficult. The Maxwell are big bois, kind of similar size of Elegia right?
Id like to hear the engineer's thoughts on this, but after comparing Bathys to Celestee/Elegia/Stellia I really feel it's a serious factor. Bathys has a really similar driver to the other focal closed headphones, but about one third the volume in the cup, and its filled with electronics too. That limitation surely explains the huge divide in sound between a Bathys and a Celestee, and potentially between the much cheaper Maxwell and more expensive closed Bt headphones too.
Bathys‘ driver is 40mm, the others do have 50mm. Also the used materials differ a lot. Of course they do have many things in common like m-shaped dome etc. but there are enough differences too.
@Maukey have you tested the EQ Profile of Nomax yet with the Bathys? You should!
On the other hand, most high-end wireless cans, including Focal Bathys, B&O PX8, and mainstream high-end cans such as Sony WH-1000XM5 and Sennheiser Momentum Wireless 4, use DSP alongside the transducer to get the final sound voicing (electronics on).
Except the Bathys, the other cans have a significant change in sound (lesser) when used passively, because those transducers were not voiced fully mechanically in passive mode, and not voiced to match electronics DSP performance either. They are competent when used passively, but sadly this is more of a convince feature until the headphones are charged.
This shows the power and strength of DSP, as well as its weaknesses, alongside why it is so costly to voice mechanically too.
It also explains where research and development goes for different manufacturers, their goals, and who they are marketing to.
Indeed, and I imagine the DSP is somehow making up for the problems arising from the geometrical constraints?
I saw interviews with staff from Focal and they said a big issue they had to solve with closed back headphones is back waves. The inside of the full sized cb headphones have a pyramidal structure to break up back waves that may reflect and hit the driver, also they have the porting mechanism too. Just putting my Bathys beside the Stellia/Elegia I'm guessing it's a 300% volume difference inside the cup, and that's without considering the tiny space of the Bathys cup volume being filled with electronics. Maybe voicing a headphone mechanically in such a scenario is too challenging.
Indeed, and I imagine the DSP is somehow making up for the problems arising from the geometrical constraints?
I saw interviews with staff from Focal and they said a big issue they had to solve with closed back headphones is back waves. The inside of the full sized cb headphones have a pyramidal structure to break up back waves that may reflect and hit the driver, also they have the porting mechanism too. Just putting my Bathys beside the Stellia/Elegia I'm guessing it's a 300% volume difference inside the cup, and that's without considering the tiny space of the Bathys cup volume being filled with electronics. Maybe voicing a headphone mechanically in such a scenario is too challenging.
Oh it is challenging and doable, but depends on what the goal is.
For Focal, if they had gone all out on mechanical voicing, it would have added significant increase in costs, potentially to Mark Levinson or T+A levels.
That, of course, was not their target market nor goal, so other solutions were used.
That said, I welcome Focal to compete against Mark Levinson and T+A anyway. I'd love to see Focal Clear or similar with wireless tech, but also have wired hybrid passive feature; this would indeed be more expensive than Clear/Clear MG, yet would be great competition too. However, it may also be too large for travel/outdoor usage. That's one of the big advantages of the T+A Solitaire T in my opinion as it is rather compact and has decent side profile too.
Maukey, excellent thread. I've been using this as a reference point since I'm new to premium headphones, but man did I pick a good time to start. I'm listening to so much music, it felt natural to finally invest in nicer gear. I created an account so I could ask you some questions, if you have time to get to them.
I am green, so I won't pretend I know any technicals. Got the Sony XM5 a couple weeks ago and they were far above the sound quality of any cheaper earbuds I ever had. I kept reading about the more premium models, and was fascinated by the ML 5909, which I received on Wednesday and absolutely love. I still have both and the 5909 are amazing. They'll definitely be staying to start my collection. The XM5 are really solid but pale in comparison in SQ and to me, comfort. The 5909 fits me perfectly, the headband barely presses down on my head, and my ears don't get hot. The XM5 can slide around a little, although it may be my slouching.
I'm thinking of either returning the XM5 and picking up another premium pair to complement the 5909, or keeping the XM5 and getting a 3rd pair strictly for SQ to complement the 5909. When I fly, it's typically longer trips, so the XM5 does have value there with the superior ANC, and the sound quality is by no means bad. It's actually quite clear and they definitely get louder than the 5909. I also found a nice setting for EQ that greatly improved my experience.
I know you returned the 5909 in favor of the Bathys, and you also enjoy the Px8. The MW75 are also intriguing, especially because the silver and blue model is one of the best looking headphones, in my opinion.
Two scenarios: if I kept the 5909 and the XM5, which of Bathys, Px8, and MW75 would be the best complement in your opinion? Sound quality and comfort matter more than ANC or traveling in this scenario.
Alternately, if I return the XM5 and keep the 5909, what would you pair with the 5909? Between Bathys, Px8, and MW75, which would best complement the 5909 in terms of bringing a different high quality sound while also having effective ANC on planes? I haven't ruled out traveling with the 5909, but would prefer to travel with something else.
I'm leaning toward trying out the Bathys, but really interested to hear your thoughts.
Thanks in advance and I'm sure I'll have a few more questions, because I'm fully obsessed with this hobby now!
i seconded the view of mainguy that px8 supplements 5909 the best. bathys sounds similar enough to 5909 for me that it maybe not the best choice if you're looking for a different and complementary sound signature.
i'm not sure if this is a sensible suggestion - but as anc is not an important factor to you, then maybe ath-wb2022 (no anc, no true passive mode and also just 9hrs battery life) is also worth considering, if budget allows. i've rather negative impression about wb2022 during the short demo i had in tokyo back in feb. but last week when i went to e-earphone again, the experience became much more positive so i bought an almost pristine second hand for about us$1.8k tax free. i guess a significant part of the $ went to the anniversary model identity. i was listening to my solitaire T during that visit (and viking ragnar for iem) while on my DC Ti in last trip. the references probably matter too. anyway, i a/b listening to wb2022 and solitare T back and forth and found wb2022 quite a lot more enjoyable (just for background info, i prefer the sound of 5909 over solitaire T too). wb2022 is coloured and its tuning has a lot of similarity with A-T wooden cups e.g. L5000 & AWAS - great for female vocal with fun mid-bass.
I've actually checked those out a few times while looking for which headphones to pair with the 5909. And funny enough, I was messing around on Amazon (where I purchased the XM5) and I saw the Bathys on sale for $699. I had to refresh a few times to be sure I wasn't crazy. I also noticed the XM5 were on sale for $348, and I just got them for $398, so that'll make the decision to return them easier. I ordered the Bathys and I plan to drop off the XM5 for return tomorrow. I have long distance flights next week, and I'll test the Bathys ANC to see if they'll be good enough. I imagine they will be fine.
If the Bathys are good enough on the ANC and comfort for flights, then perhaps the Audeze Maxwell make sense. I'm on PS5, would that change your recommendation?I also think the PX8 could be in play since the XM5 are going back and I'm getting the Bathys on sale.
That would not change my recommendation. There's a PS5 and Xbox version of the Maxwells. I have both a PS5 and Xbox One X so I had to get the Xbox version so that my headset would work with both. So, keep that in mind. If you have any thought of getting an Xbox one day, get the Xbox version. It works with both PS5 and Xbox. Funny thing, I've been listening to music with my Maxwells more than gaming with them LOL.
The PX8 is an excellent choice and is actually the better compliment to your 5909 in my opinion. It's more portable than the 5909 with a different/more unique sound signature. Don't get me wrong, if money is no object, I'll never tell anyone not to grab as many headphones as they can. The Bathys are excellent and so far, have stood strong in my collection. For me, they dethroned the 5909.
I am not a gamer at all but for some reason, these have been on my radar. They have other compelling specs as is, and i know it's only been a few days since you got them, but I'm even more intrigued to try them based on your early sound impressions and reviews I've read previously. seems they're out of stock on amazon, but maybe i'll pick up a pair.
They are very difficult to find. Here in the US a couple of stores on Amazon have gotten a few in here recently. I literally saw them come up for sale last Wednesday morning. I purchased them and then 2 hours later they were gone.
Bathys‘ driver is 40mm, the others do have 50mm. Also the used materials differ a lot. Of course they do have many things in common like m-shaped dome etc. but there are enough differences too.
@Maukey have you tested the EQ Profile of Nomax yet with the Bathys? You should!
That would not change my recommendation. There's a PS5 and Xbox version of the Maxwells. I have both a PS5 and Xbox One X so I had to get the Xbox version so that my headset would work with both. So, keep that in mind. If you have any thought of getting an Xbox one day, get the Xbox version. It works with both PS5 and Xbox. Funny thing, I've been listening to music with my Maxwells more than gaming with them LOL.
The PX8 is an excellent choice and is actually the better compliment to your 5909 in my opinion. It's more portable than the 5909 with a different/more unique sound signature. Don't get me wrong, if money is no object, I'll never tell anyone not to grab as many headphones as they can. The Bathys are excellent and so far, have stood strong in my collection. For me, they dethroned the 5909.
They are very difficult to find. Here in the US a couple of stores on Amazon have gotten a few in here recently. I literally saw them come up for sale last Wednesday morning. I purchased them and then 2 hours later they were gone.
I have not tested the EQ profile of Nomax yet. I'll look at giving it a try here soon.
Good to know re: Maxwell compatibility. The Xbox version is more expensive but also more available than the PlayStation version.
I may have been hasty. I ordered the Bathys since they were on sale, and they'll be here tomorrow. I plan to test them side by side with the 5909 and XM5 and see where I land before I return the XM5. I wouldn't mind altering my initial plan and going with the 5909, Bathys and Audeze Maxwell, if the Bathys are different enough to me than the 5909 and are "good enough" on the plane. I've been leaning into trying the Bathys anyway, so it feels like it's a sign that it's on sale the same day I joined HeadFi. I'll let you know what I think of the Bathys later this week.
Good to know re: Maxwell compatibility. The Xbox version is more expensive but also more available than the PlayStation version.
I may have been hasty. I ordered the Bathys since they were on sale, and they'll be here tomorrow. I plan to test them side by side with the 5909 and XM5 and see where I land before I return the XM5. I wouldn't mind altering my initial plan and going with the 5909, Bathys and Audeze Maxwell, if the Bathys are different enough to me than the 5909 and are "good enough" on the plane. I've been leaning into trying the Bathys anyway, so it feels like it's a sign that it's on sale the same day I joined HeadFi. I'll let you know what I think of the Bathys later this week.
This is a great thread! I’ve been trying to demo a PX7 S2 or PX8 (or even an H95), but no local stores carry any of them unfortunately.
I use the PX7 Carbon and have been wondering if an upgrade would be worthwhile. I really enjoy the PX7 despite it being slightly inconsistent at times. I love the USB-C audio feature because my hi-res lossless tracks do sound better this way (when I’m at home and feel like actively listening).
Has anyone here spent time with the PX7 along with any of the other headphones on this list? What differences or improvements could I expect in sound quality?
This is a great thread! I’ve been trying to demo a PX7 S2 or PX8 (or even an H95), but no local stores carry any of them unfortunately.
I use the PX7 Carbon and have been wondering if an upgrade would be worthwhile. I really enjoy the PX7 despite it being slightly inconsistent at times. I love the USB-C audio feature because my hi-res lossless tracks do sound better this way (when I’m at home and feel like actively listening).
Has anyone here spent time with the PX7 along with any of the other headphones on this list? What differences or improvements could I expect in sound quality?
I have had experience. I originally had the PX7 on this list but removed it after the PX7 S2 was released. The PX7 S2 and PX8 are pretty much an improvement in every way. When it comes to sound, both the PX7 S2 and PX8 still have that darker, big, live concert type of sound, they just do it cleaner so you don't have as many inconsistencies. The only way I can see you preferring the PX7 to the 2 newer headphones is if you prefer the kind of concert hall type tuning that is unique to the PX7. It gives the sound this really bassy, dark, spacious feel. Other than that, the 2 newer headphones are technically more accurate.
After seeing the Maxwell’s mentioned in here, and seeing that they just happened to be in stock, I decided to order a pair to compare with the PX8’s that I currently have. I posted the below in the Maxwell thread a few days ago:
“
Music sounds … pretty good. I think I do prefer a v-shaped signature and I currently use PX8’s, which feel incredibly welcoming and really engage me with the music. The Maxwell’s sound super clear with music too, bass maybe a little lighter than I’d like (though using the Immersive EQ helps there), but they really lack that warmth that the PX8’s offer.
The vast majority of my usage will be for music so the PX8’s (at the moment) would win there, though it could just be a case of me adapting though I think I’d still always prefer that warmer feeling sound. But I also like gaming and having the option to use the dongle so easily on my consoles compared to having to use the aux port for the PX8’s puts the Maxwell’s ahead on that one.”
I’ve not had a chance to use them again since but it’s a bit of a tricky decision on which to keep. Music just sounds better to me with the PX8’s, but the Maxwell’s are still really good. But being able to use the Maxwell’s so easily with my consoles is a definite plus.
I’m clueless with EQ so not sure if I could tweak the Maxwell’s to have that live concert warm sound that the PX8’s have? Not sure it’s that simple really.
I’ve not had a chance to use them again since but it’s a bit of a tricky decision on which to keep. Music just sounds better to me with the PX8’s, but the Maxwell’s are still really good. But being able to use the Maxwell’s so easily with my consoles is a definite plus.
I’m clueless with EQ so not sure if I could tweak the Maxwell’s to have that live concert warm sound that the PX8’s have? Not sure it’s that simple really.
Pro tip for consoles, run a long USB-C cable from the console round the back of your couch and strap it there, plug it into headphones/DAC whenever you want wired audio. I do it with my PS5 and its better quality of course than bluetooth and just as convenient, and you can easily make it discreet so the cable is unnoticeable. This should work just fine with the PX8 too and will cost you about 8 quid off amazon.
Pro tip for consoles, run a long USB-C cable from the console round the back of your couch and strap it there, plug it into headphones/DAC whenever you want wired audio. I do it with my PS5 and its better quality of course than bluetooth and just as convenient, and you can easily make it discreet so the cable is unnoticeable. This should work just fine with the PX8 too and will cost you about 8 quid off amazon.
Interesting, I didn’t think about that. I was already looking at a USB switch as I have a Series X and PS5 that I wanted to use the Maxwell dongle with. So i guess I’d just get the same switch, but then instead of the dongle plugging in, it’s a super long cable snaking around to the couch.
Interesting, I didn’t think about that. I was already looking at a USB switch as I have a Series X and PS5 that I wanted to use the Maxwell dongle with. So i guess I’d just get the same switch, but then instead of the dongle plugging in, it’s a super long cable snaking around to the couch.
Yup. It's the better solution tbh as the latency is as low as possible and the sound quality is as high as possible. I actually plug my little iFi Go blu DAC directly into the USB C cable, which you can have velcro'd behind the couch, just grab it, plug in, and go. The ifi go blu has a volume wheel and great sound, plus I can power open backs/planars while gaming. Pretty sure the Maxwell's as good as they are can't match that experience and it's just as convenient. Plus the go blu charges while plugged in so no need to recharge either hehe.
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