wind016
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Unless I'm using a Stax O2, FLAC is pointless. The differences are negligible hair splitting. Even with a Stax, I'm positive I would fail a dbx test.
Shure SRH 940 impression and support thread
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extrabigmehdi
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ABX not DBX. And why we shouldn't be talking about this on this forum, there's a rule about it ? I would imagine a counter-TOS8 rule here (from hydrogenaudio) , that would forbid any objective statement, only subjective ; that would be quite funny. But there's already the website audioasylium for that, and the name truly fits.
Yeah, it takes some concentration efforts and a trained ear to make a distinction, especially with lame encoder; but I still prefer to keep everything lossless.
wind016
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Double blind experiment and I think it is allowed in the Headphone forum.
extrabigmehdi
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Ok, but I'm more used to the "ABX test" expression, which have by the way it's wikipedia page.
baka1969
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Don't let this thread get off track with the mp3 vs lossless debate. Take it to a different forum like the science forum. These debates only run in circles and get nasty. They rarely persuade anyone and ultimately crap up the place. Let's discuss something directly relevant to the Shure 940. Thanks.
electropop
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I don't personally mind whether the clapping on "Trains" should sound completely real or not.
Priority is that everything is audible. Even the notes to their pitch. I find 6 elements with my supposedly flat speakers: acoustic guitar, clapping, banjo (playing 6ths), something that sounds like a kannel (playing a lower note than the banjo rhythm at the beginning of every 3rd [bar], might even be the same banjo but recorded as a separate track) and two electric guitars: one for the background ambience (appears first) and second on the right channel (not sure if the same player just just expands). Everything is audible, clearly to me. I don't care whether something sounds more upfront than the other (supposedly to make it more realistic, since none of the instruments as an individual do in this case)... Great mixing I think, though everything turns pretty monotonic when the drums and distorted guitars come in
Kind of worried if the 940 made some of these instruments difficult to follow...
Oh, and 320kbps (VBR) is good and can make all the difference to more tightly packed stuff. But it's still not good enough for my system... Did a DBX just to see whether whatever I heard, fell under placebo, but got 15 out of 15, with different samples, with a similar program and I thought it made enough a difference for me to keep using lossless. Of course it's not night and day. I think it depends on what one listens. Put up some modal craziness, like Zappa or Miles davis, and if every instrument and their harmonics are audible without missing a beat, I'm good. I heard the difference, clearly, in in the dynamics of single notes from any instrument, harmonics around them and overall naturalness (pace is good and not smeared by any inconsistencies, basically the same thing...). And, no treble harshness! Listened to this one great album by an Australian group called "Void" (not the emo-metal one) in 320kbps until I finally found a place from where to purchase the record. Of course I upgraded it and ripped it in lossless and the difference was quite drastic (for me)... But as someone said, the difference can most often be heard in dynamics and treble. Good source makes all the difference though... Could not hear the difference at all from my ipod.
Heh, and that's enough from me on this subject! Unless someone asks... Please do so in PM.
Priority is that everything is audible. Even the notes to their pitch. I find 6 elements with my supposedly flat speakers: acoustic guitar, clapping, banjo (playing 6ths), something that sounds like a kannel (playing a lower note than the banjo rhythm at the beginning of every 3rd [bar], might even be the same banjo but recorded as a separate track) and two electric guitars: one for the background ambience (appears first) and second on the right channel (not sure if the same player just just expands). Everything is audible, clearly to me. I don't care whether something sounds more upfront than the other (supposedly to make it more realistic, since none of the instruments as an individual do in this case)... Great mixing I think, though everything turns pretty monotonic when the drums and distorted guitars come in
Kind of worried if the 940 made some of these instruments difficult to follow...
Oh, and 320kbps (VBR) is good and can make all the difference to more tightly packed stuff. But it's still not good enough for my system... Did a DBX just to see whether whatever I heard, fell under placebo, but got 15 out of 15, with different samples, with a similar program and I thought it made enough a difference for me to keep using lossless. Of course it's not night and day. I think it depends on what one listens. Put up some modal craziness, like Zappa or Miles davis, and if every instrument and their harmonics are audible without missing a beat, I'm good. I heard the difference, clearly, in in the dynamics of single notes from any instrument, harmonics around them and overall naturalness (pace is good and not smeared by any inconsistencies, basically the same thing...). And, no treble harshness! Listened to this one great album by an Australian group called "Void" (not the emo-metal one) in 320kbps until I finally found a place from where to purchase the record. Of course I upgraded it and ripped it in lossless and the difference was quite drastic (for me)... But as someone said, the difference can most often be heard in dynamics and treble. Good source makes all the difference though... Could not hear the difference at all from my ipod.
Heh, and that's enough from me on this subject! Unless someone asks... Please do so in PM.
brat
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More power to you then. Personally it annoyed the heck out of me. I know the song. It sounds roughly the same on my Beyers as it does on my MS1is (not tone, MS1 is warmer - but impact and depth). It's a song I know well and really like. On the Shures, this section just sounded really flat.
Imagine one of your tracks that you know really well. Everything sounds really good (warm mids, amazing clarity), then you get to a certain section and it just "jars" because the whole piece sounds very wrong. That's what I got.
electropop
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I understand what you mean... I used to seek that particular feeling I got from certain instruments as well, but changed my listening habits when I realized I was quite off on my track, since a holistic experience was not possible to achieve with sheer coloration. (Don't take that as a personal attack vs. the DT880, even though I don't like them very much...)
So it might not be that you're just accustomed to hearing it in a particular fashion, that's better than anything else you've heard? Is "wrong" subjective in this case, what do you think? I only ask, since Beyer's usually leave me wanting for much more. They have peaks and leave much musical information out of the equation, ie. notes distinguishable to their pitch.
When you say that the section sounded "flat" on the Shures, what do you mean? Not enough impact from the instruments? Is it monotonic in pitch (flat on sheet music)? I use my K272's so much nowadays, so I'm a bit sensitive to "thump" or "impact". It usually makes things sound possibly more "real" in terms of impact and how you would feel them live (though I personally think this is not possible with headphones), but masks what is most important, the musical message of the song. So when I say audible, I mean audible to the pitch. If this is achieved, a headphone does many things more than adequately.
So it might not be that you're just accustomed to hearing it in a particular fashion, that's better than anything else you've heard? Is "wrong" subjective in this case, what do you think? I only ask, since Beyer's usually leave me wanting for much more. They have peaks and leave much musical information out of the equation, ie. notes distinguishable to their pitch.
When you say that the section sounded "flat" on the Shures, what do you mean? Not enough impact from the instruments? Is it monotonic in pitch (flat on sheet music)? I use my K272's so much nowadays, so I'm a bit sensitive to "thump" or "impact". It usually makes things sound possibly more "real" in terms of impact and how you would feel them live (though I personally think this is not possible with headphones), but masks what is most important, the musical message of the song. So when I say audible, I mean audible to the pitch. If this is achieved, a headphone does many things more than adequately.
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I mean realism. I know what a clap sounds like. The Beyer delivers it, my modded MS1i delivers a slightly different rendition - but it still sounds 'real'. The 940 sounds slightly artificial. It grates me. And yes that is completely subjective.- its how they sound to me. Maybe I'll get used to it in time. What hurts is that the 940 has the most beautiful mids I've ever heard. Like I said earlier - if I could take the DT880 best points, and add the SRH940 best points - to me that would be a truly magnificent headphone. In the meantime, I'll keep looking .....
electropop
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I'm sure you know what a clap sounds like. But that particular clap (Trains) goes through a mixing table and through whatnot comes out the transducers in a completely different fashion as it was heard live. One can go after altering the clap to sound real perhaps through coloration, but what about the rest of the music? Quite sure something else would not sound natural after that...
Anyways... I've come to learn that it depends on the music quite much. If it's somewhat simple, with a few instruments playing acoustically perhaps, colored headphones might have a very good chance at sounding extremely natural or real. I listen to mostly jazz and rhythmically and harmonically rich modal music in general, that has many simultaneous tracks. Colored headphones bring some of the stuff upfront, making some instruments even sound more real, but leave MUCH of the rest to wallow. For instance, with my K272HD's, I get a much more musically holistic presentation, hear much more from the recording, but they don't necessarily sound "real", as you say it. This is a priority to me. If something can sound real and render every bit of musical detail audible, it's bliss. Yet to come across something like that...
I've recently had many discussions with people about what is "natural". It's a tricky slope. I've come to accept that it's impossible to have that in a headphone, since live music engages you physically, not just aurally. Therefore I prioritize what the artists has intended: to hear the story he has put in the form of music. In other words, to distinguish pitch variations between notes. I'll happily give away a bit of realism. For me: music > sound, and I'm not being a smart ass. I really think most people don't know what they're missing...
Modern dance music has no meaning in this case of course, since many of the artists just want their audience dancing to head throbbing bass. It's second to devoid of musical content. Basically like ABC compared to a proper novel. For this music, which is fine with me as long as its function remains as being background music, any headphone will do that rocks one's socks subjectively.
Anyway, this is what I think. Somewhat moot, since I've yet to hear music through the SRH940
Anyways... I've come to learn that it depends on the music quite much. If it's somewhat simple, with a few instruments playing acoustically perhaps, colored headphones might have a very good chance at sounding extremely natural or real. I listen to mostly jazz and rhythmically and harmonically rich modal music in general, that has many simultaneous tracks. Colored headphones bring some of the stuff upfront, making some instruments even sound more real, but leave MUCH of the rest to wallow. For instance, with my K272HD's, I get a much more musically holistic presentation, hear much more from the recording, but they don't necessarily sound "real", as you say it. This is a priority to me. If something can sound real and render every bit of musical detail audible, it's bliss. Yet to come across something like that...
I've recently had many discussions with people about what is "natural". It's a tricky slope. I've come to accept that it's impossible to have that in a headphone, since live music engages you physically, not just aurally. Therefore I prioritize what the artists has intended: to hear the story he has put in the form of music. In other words, to distinguish pitch variations between notes. I'll happily give away a bit of realism. For me: music > sound, and I'm not being a smart ass.
I really think most people don't know what they're missing...Modern dance music has no meaning in this case of course, since many of the artists just want their audience dancing to head throbbing bass. It's second to devoid of musical content. Basically like ABC compared to a proper novel. For this music, which is fine with me as long as its function remains as being background music, any headphone will do that rocks one's socks subjectively.
Anyway, this is what I think. Somewhat moot, since I've yet to hear music through the SRH940
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Anyway, this is what I think. Somewhat moot, since I've yet to hear music through the SRH940
Agree + I was talking about what I hear through the SRH940. What I hear will be inherently different to what everyone else hears. And I also agree - for me, music has always been the point - never sound. But for me while the rest of the presentation is fantastic, the bass is off. It's like sitting down to a fine meal. The steak is cooked perfectly, the pasta is divine, everything is perfect except for the sauce. Others may like the sauce - but I do not, and it is served on the steak (it is an inherent part of the meal). I could add salt / pepper / garnish to improve it - but it is still not right for me. In time I may get used to the sauce - but for now I am thinking about no longer partaking in this meal - but trying another one. I trust you understand this more fully.
And you don't need to talk mixing tables or anything else. This is not about how the music was mixed - it's about how the SRH940 presents it to me. The Alessandros are fine. The Beyers are fine (although they do not have the same life that the SRH940 or the Alessandro has in the mids). Unfortunately the SRH940 for me at the moment is the problem. I wish it wasn't - because the rest of what it offers is really 'that good'.
Anyway - I'd suggest you actually try it and then we could discuss some more. After all - you already said - you have never yet tried the sauce ......
electropop
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Yes, of course everything is subjective. But, can you explicit on the bass? Can you say, whether it's good at discerning notes? That if something, is objective, which was my point all along. How something is to one in the sense of "realism" or whatnot, and how something performs musically are two different things. A headphone might be bliss for someone and sound very real, but when it comes down to tabbing notes, for instance, which is a quality a studying musician needs, it fails miserably. Subjectivity vs. objectivity.
Music is the point, BUT you say something about how the 940s present it wrong to you. Is it a matter of sound (subjective) or do they make it difficult to see into the music (objective). I'm kind of asking you to tell me whether it is good in the way I seek it to be, which I believe is objective, (at least as a quality) since no one yet has
But yes, I'm going to get them real soon with the K550 and KNS6400, pit them against my K272 and see which one stays.
Still, regarding your second paragraph. I think it is about how the music is mixed. To enjoy a broader range of music a headphone should present it (however mixed) as holistically (I've used that word too many times today) as possible. The Alessandro, you can't deny, is about certain coloration and portraying the music in it's own fashion and while good in some areas, it fails in others... With headphones like that, it's always about fitting the pieces together. With good headphones, it's about digging into the music and forgetting how it sounds in real life, I think...
I'm not trying to defend the 940, but a certain type of presentation, to be more accurate.
Music is the point, BUT you say something about how the 940s present it wrong to you. Is it a matter of sound (subjective) or do they make it difficult to see into the music (objective). I'm kind of asking you to tell me whether it is good in the way I seek it to be, which I believe is objective, (at least as a quality) since no one yet has
But yes, I'm going to get them real soon with the K550 and KNS6400, pit them against my K272 and see which one stays.
Still, regarding your second paragraph. I think it is about how the music is mixed. To enjoy a broader range of music a headphone should present it (however mixed) as holistically (I've used that word too many times today) as possible. The Alessandro, you can't deny, is about certain coloration and portraying the music in it's own fashion and while good in some areas, it fails in others... With headphones like that, it's always about fitting the pieces together. With good headphones, it's about digging into the music and forgetting how it sounds in real life, I think...
I'm not trying to defend the 940, but a certain type of presentation, to be more accurate.
zibra
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Second to that. If you found such cans please let me know. Ill buy it right away mate!
I also have little beyers DT1350 and still not convinced which one I want to keep. Little beyers have much better bass response. If Shure has it at least...
Soon Ill go to my friend to compare DT1350&DT880/250&Shure 940 (with RS1 W5000 HD380Pro etc, in background). That would be veeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeery precise observation for that trio especially
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Music is the point, BUT you say something about how the 940s present it wrong to you. Is it a matter of sound (subjective) or do they make it difficult to see into the music (objective). I'm kind of asking you to tell me whether it is good in the way I seek it to be, which I believe is objective, (at least as a quality) since no one yet has
The problem is - how can I be objective - when I'm listening with my ears and my bias. I don't have the tools to objectively measure the SRH940 - but you should be able to find someone on the web who has already.
All I can tell you is that the bass extends really well, and has really good layering. It's just not what I am used to - therefore it does not 'gel' for me at the moment. Amongst buyers so far - you'll find polarisation on this subject. Some love the bass, some (like me) find it difficult to get used to. Perhaps more time with them will bring me around. In the meantime all I can give you is my own subjective and biased opinion. You really need to listen to these yourself and form your own opinion.
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