[Toesnip13]

Thought people might be interested in this. I asked Shure about SR25 and if it’s a good match. Here’s their reply:


Hi David

The Astell & Kern SR25 should be an ideal match for the SE846. The website Headphonesty.com has put together a good article covering the importance of pairing a suitable output device with your chosen earphones or headphones. Their article focuses on headphones but the underlying principles are the same.

• There are two types of impedance (measured in Ohms): headphone impedance and source impedance. Impedance matching between headphone and source is done to ensure a good combination of sound quality and sufficient volume. A match means ‘complimentary’ not ‘equal’.
• Pairing a headphone with an impedance of 2.5-8 times higher than the source impedance should yield good results. This recommended ratio is commonly known as the ‘rule of eighths’ and contributes to proper driver control (damping factor). Pairing a headphone with an equal or lower impedance than the source will likely result in unpredictable (poor) sound quality.

As stated in the article, a ‘perfect’ output impedance would be zero ohms as it would always deliver the same output into any load. A ‘low-impedance’ earphone like the SE846 at 9-ohms falls within the guidelines of 2.5-8 times the source impedance of the Astell & Kern SR25 and they will make a good pairing. I hope you enjoy them!

Kind Regards
Sally-Ann
Shure UK

 

[musicday]

Is the SE846 best IEM for £500? So many options now

 

[Toesnip13]

Ok, then I need to try them definitely. I actually like the yellow ones most except when it comed to comfort..

If the yellow one fit properly in your ears then definitely got for medium or (as I have done) large comply tips. Super comfy. Best of both

 

[phthora]

Thought people might be interested in this. I asked Shure about SR25 and if it’s a good match. Here’s their reply:


Hi David

The Astell & Kern SR25 should be an ideal match for the SE846. The website Headphonesty.com has put together a good article covering the importance of pairing a suitable output device with your chosen earphones or headphones. Their article focuses on headphones but the underlying principles are the same.

• There are two types of impedance (measured in Ohms): headphone impedance and source impedance. Impedance matching between headphone and source is done to ensure a good combination of sound quality and sufficient volume. A match means ‘complimentary’ not ‘equal’.
• Pairing a headphone with an impedance of 2.5-8 times higher than the source impedance should yield good results. This recommended ratio is commonly known as the ‘rule of eighths’ and contributes to proper driver control (damping factor). Pairing a headphone with an equal or lower impedance than the source will likely result in unpredictable (poor) sound quality.

As stated in the article, a ‘perfect’ output impedance would be zero ohms as it would always deliver the same output into any load. A ‘low-impedance’ earphone like the SE846 at 9-ohms falls within the guidelines of 2.5-8 times the source impedance of the Astell & Kern SR25 and they will make a good pairing. I hope you enjoy them!

Kind Regards
Sally-Ann
Shure UK

Maybe someone should clarify that there is nominal impedance and measured impedance. The nominal impedance, which might be considered the average impedance over the frequency spectrum, might be 9 ohm (though some list it as 11 ohm), but that's not really helpful since the impedance in question is so low. The measured impedance varies from 5-16 ohms. That variance is common to multiple balanced armature IEMs. That means that not all frequencies are affected equally by the source impedance. The portion of the frequency spectrum that has the lowest impedance will change the most as the source impedance increases. Using the nominal impedance to select an appropriate source is not going to be accurate.

Moreover, the idea that the impedance of the headphones only needs to be 2.5 times the source impedance is misleading. I have never heard someone claim a ratio that low before. While the there isn't danger to the equipment, audible changes to the frequency response due to source impedance start happening at a source impedance of 1.0 ohm. Following the 2.5 times rule and assuming 9.0 ohm headphone impedance, the source impedance would be 3.6 ohms, resulting in a 3 db dip around 5-6khz in the frequency response. I guess you could argue that that still sounds "good," but you could also argue that if the impedance was 10 ohm or 50 ohm. Not helpful. At a source impedance of 1.0 ohm, you get a dip of 1 db there, just big enough of a change to register for most people. If you ask me, that's the cut-off between an appropriate match for the 846 and one that's less optimal. If you want no audible FR change, then you're going to have to find a source with an OI under 0.5 ohm and the lower the better.

 

[Toesnip13]

Maybe someone should clarify that there is nominal impedance and measured impedance. The nominal impedance, which might be considered the average impedance over the frequency spectrum, might be 9 ohm (though some list it as 11 ohm), but that's not really helpful since the impedance in question is so low. The measured impedance varies from 5-16 ohms. That variance is common to multiple balanced armature IEMs. That means that not all frequencies are affected equally by the source impedance. The portion of the frequency spectrum that has the lowest impedance will change the most as the source impedance increases. Using the nominal impedance to select an appropriate source is not going to be accurate.

Moreover, the idea that the impedance of the headphones only needs to be 2.5 times the source impedance is misleading. I have never heard someone claim a ratio that low before. While the there isn't danger to the equipment, audible changes to the frequency response due to source impedance start happening at a source impedance of 1.0 ohm. Following the 2.5 times rule and assuming 9.0 ohm headphone impedance, the source impedance would be 3.6 ohms, resulting in a 3 db dip around 5-6khz in the frequency response. I guess you could argue that that still sounds "good," but you could also argue that if the impedance was 10 ohm or 50 ohm. Not helpful. At a source impedance of 1.0 ohm, you get a dip of 1 db there, just big enough of a change to register for most people. If you ask me, that's the cut-off between an appropriate match for the 846 and one that's less optimal. If you want no audible FR change, then you're going to have to find a source with an OI under 0.5 ohm and the lower the better.

Good point. I mean the vital thing to remember in all of this is that the SE846 (and indeed most if not all) impedance is given at 1kHz. And I don’t know who’s interested in electronics here but inductance and capacitance are tied in with frequency in inductive and capacitive reactance, and reactance goes on to form what we call impedance when combined with resistance in a vector calculation.

In other words, resistance can be seen as a horizontal vector value, reactance as a vertical vector value, and the sum of those is the net effect (diagonal vector value) or impedance. Impedance therefore, because of reactance, is also tied in with frequency.

Now the question regarding reactance is what type? Well we are dealing with ac signals that are passing through multiple thin wire windings in those drivers so for the majority and simplification, we are concerned with inductive reactance. Inductive reactance can be calculated by the formula:
2*pi*f*L

pi being of course roughly 3.14
f being the frequency at the given moment (or as we would refer to as instantaneous frequency)
L is the inductance, measured in Henries

From there you can already see just how much goes into simply understanding these simple bits of data on a spec sheet. I guess the only thing we really have to go by is that the source and load impedance are given at 1kHz, but from there on who knows what the impedance will be above or below that frequency, hence FR curves for loads AND sources

And from all that I would simply like to say that spec sheets cannot be relied on. Sometimes we just have to test it out in actuality and see what occurs. Remember that many other aspects will affect these numbers as well, such as heat, connection quality etc

As many radio engineers will often say, there is no such thing as an open circuit. And indeed they are correct - it’s just another capacitor.

Anyways hope some of that helped but most probably it’s garbage
Nevertheless it was cathartic

 

[phthora]

Good point. I mean the vital thing to remember in all of this is that the SE846 (and indeed most if not all) impedance is given at 1kHz. And I don’t know who’s interested in electronics here but inductance and capacitance are tied in with frequency in inductive and capacitive reactance, and reactance goes on to form what we call impedance when combined with resistance in a vector calculation.

In other words, resistance can be seen as a horizontal vector value, reactance as a vertical vector value, and the sum of those is the net effect (diagonal vector value) or impedance. Impedance therefore, because of reactance, is also tied in with frequency.

Now the question regarding reactance is what type? Well we are dealing with ac signals that are passing through multiple thin wire windings in those drivers so for the majority and simplification, we are concerned with inductive reactance. Inductive reactance can be calculated by the formula:
2*pi*f*L

pi being of course roughly 3.14
f being the frequency at the given moment (or as we would refer to as instantaneous frequency)
L is the inductance, measured in Henries

From there you can already see just how much goes into simply understanding these simple bits of data on a spec sheet. I guess the only thing we really have to go by is that the source and load impedance are given at 1kHz, but from there on who knows what the impedance will be above or below that frequency, hence FR curves for loads AND sources

And from all that I would simply like to say that spec sheets cannot be relied on. Sometimes we just have to test it out in actuality and see what occurs. Remember that many other aspects will affect these numbers as well, such as heat, connection quality etc

As many radio engineers will often say, there is no such thing as an open circuit. And indeed they are correct - it’s just another capacitor.

Anyways hope some of that helped but most probably it’s garbage
Nevertheless it was cathartic

Just to be clear, in this case I was referencing measurements, rather than the sort of spec sheets included in marketing materials or something like that. As you said, "spec sheets cannot be relied on," although in the vast majority of cases the difference between spec and reality isn't quite as consequential as with the 846.

I also don't want to imply that people running the 846 off of something with a high output impedance are doing anything wrong. They may prefer the resulting sound, and that's all that should matter. But, I do hope that people are aware of the effects of that OI, as that might sometimes be the thing holding them back from a better subjective experience with these IEMs. I know that that was my case for a couple of years.

Anyway, I appreciate the insights into electronics that you've posted. I always find that stuff interesting.

 

[118900]

Is the SE846 best IEM for £500? So many options now

For 500? Possibly.
For 800? Possibly.
For 1000? Possibly.

 

[phthora]

Is the SE846 best IEM for £500? So many options now

Last year, I bought three of the most widely acclaimed earphones of 2020 in the $500 to $800 range: Fearless Audio S8Z, Moondrop S8, and Dunu SA6. While they are all excellent, none of them is a clear step up from the SE846. You might choose one of them over the 846 on subjective preference, but not really on technical performance.

If comfort, security of fit, and isolation are crucial, the 846 is far and away the best choice. In those three areas, it's the best earphone I've ever tried.

If you prefer polite treble to bright treble, then 846 is the easy favorite. If you value good mids the most, then the 846 wins again with only the SA6 really being competitive. On other aspects of the sound, well, things start getting more complicated.

Of course, the others are much easier to match with a source, have better cables, and more thoughtful accessories, in addition to generally being less expensive, so the total package skews in favor of these other contenders. In particular, the SA6 is an amazingly perfect overall package that truly sets a new standard. Even still, I think the 846 remains competitive at $800. At $1000, then I'd start looking around for other options.

 

[fablestruck]

I recently got the LC-4.4C to use with a Lotoo PAW S1. I wont go into sound comparisons as I'm not a cabeliever, but it's a nice looking cable with no microphonics, much nicer than the stock one, anyway. If you want to try a balanced cable then it's a good place to start given the relatively low cost.

Which tips are you using in the picture?

 

[ThanatosVI]

Is the SE846 best IEM for £500? So many options now

Did the price drop to Half?

I bought them on release, I know that in the meantime a lot of good competitors have been released, I never had the urge to upgrade tho.
I considered them a lot better than everything that posted 500 back then. So in my book they were worth their 1k price tag.
Even with new releases I am confident that they still beat other 500€ products, possibly they get besten by now in the 1k price range

Instead I upgrade the cable for my Shure S846 now

 

[Toesnip13]

Sooooo then. Here’s the update on using a £650 AK SR25 with the SE846 vs iPhone X with 3.5mm adapter (which I just found out actually has a DAC built into it believe it or not)

There is virtualy zero difference!

I’m really sensitive (I think) to all sorts of variations in sound and all I can say is streaming Master quality Tidal files from both presents nothing different. If I wanted to be super super picky then perhaps the AK has the ever so slightest greater staging, but that very quickly fades with near-instant complacency. When you listen to the iPhone you’ll just think “wow...£650 for this difference? No way!”

So it’s regretful but I’m returning this bad boy. I’m sure it will make a hella difference if I was testing the 535 since they’re 30ohms but there we go.

I’m kinda pleased actually. Just means I’m already getting a fantastic sound from a not so bulky package. And I know I can probably improve the sound with a DAC but there is no way I’m hooking up a wire between the phone and yet another chunky battery powered thing. This is waaaaay more than good enough. The 846 has already blown my other IEMs out the water so I think I’m going to simply lay back and stop analysing music but rather enjoying it for its dynamics and realism that is already there.

Also I can’t believe I’m saying this but I think the removal of the headphone jack was the best thing Apple did. They can now incorporate a much better DAC into the external adapter. I’m going to hold my nose and say it...”well done, Apple”

Ok now I have to go and wash my thumbs

 

[rusbekia]

Sooooo then. Here’s the update on using a £650 AK SR25 with the SE846 vs iPhone X with 3.5mm adapter (which I just found out actually has a DAC built into it believe it or not)

There is virtualy zero difference!

I’m really sensitive (I think) to all sorts of variations in sound and all I can say is streaming Master quality Tidal files from both presents nothing different. If I wanted to be super super picky then perhaps the AK has the ever so slightest greater staging, but that very quickly fades with near-instant complacency. When you listen to the iPhone you’ll just think “wow...£650 for this difference? No way!”

So it’s regretful but I’m returning this bad boy. I’m sure it will make a hella difference if I was testing the 535 since they’re 30ohms but there we go.

I’m kinda pleased actually. Just means I’m already getting a fantastic sound from a not so bulky package. And I know I can probably improve the sound with a DAC but there is no way I’m hooking up a wire between the phone and yet another chunky battery powered thing. This is waaaaay more than good enough. The 846 has already blown my other IEMs out the water so I think I’m going to simply lay back and stop analysing music but rather enjoying it for its dynamics and realism that is already there.

Also I can’t believe I’m saying this but I think the removal of the headphone jack was the best thing Apple did. They can now incorporate a much better DAC into the external adapter. I’m going to hold my nose and say it...”well done, Apple”

Ok now I have to go and wash my thumbs

Interesting and thanks for sharing your experiences.

i‘ve had my DX160 shipped yesterday and I have to say soundquality is remarkably better than with my iPhone XS + apple dongle. There‘s way more „punch“ in the low end, overall more body to the music, it‘s more detailed with more air between the layers due to the big soundstage. I am impressed.

HOWEVER, I‘m still having problems with WiFi and SD Card performance. Tidal disconnects after few minutes, some tracks I already downloaded to SD Card need to be synchronized again because I „changed cards“.
file transfer from Mac OS to SD card /ibasso is a mess. It takes ages to copy a 600mb record....
Then the connection brakes during the process, etc..
I also tried the app Android File Transfer which is the single biggest bugfest I ever experienced.
i‘m confronted with the flaws of android again after several years in the apple ecosystem.

I‘m thinking about getting a different SD card. The fast ones are very expensive though. Maybe that will fix the file transfer problems.

I‘m SO looking forward to when I finally got all my FLACS on it and can focus on downloading my Tidal and Apple Music stuff. This will take weeks until I‘m finished lol

What I also really liked is the Bluetooth DAC mode. Finally I‘m able to feed my home audio set up with music wirelessly.

 

[Toesnip13]

Interesting and thanks for sharing your experiences.

i‘ve had my DX160 shipped yesterday and I have to say soundquality is remarkably better than with my iPhone XS + apple dongle. There‘s way more „punch“ in the low end, overall more body to the music, it‘s more detailed with more air between the layers due to the big soundstage. I am impressed.

HOWEVER, I‘m still having problems with WiFi and SD Card performance. Tidal disconnects after few minutes, some tracks I already downloaded to SD Card need to be synchronized again because I „changed cards“.
file transfer from Mac OS to SD card /ibasso is a mess. It takes ages to copy a 600mb record....
Then the connection brakes during the process, etc..
I also tried the app Android File Transfer which is the single biggest bugfest I ever experienced.
i‘m confronted with the flaws of android again after several years in the apple ecosystem.

I‘m thinking about getting a different SD card. The fast ones are very expensive though. Maybe that will fix the file transfer problems.

I‘m SO looking forward to when I finally got all my FLACS on it and can focus on downloading my Tidal and Apple Music stuff. This will take weeks until I‘m finished lol

What I also really liked is the Bluetooth DAC mode. Finally I‘m able to feed my home audio set up with music wirelessly.

So strange really because either my hearing is shot (quite unlikely) or this DAP isn’t playing well with any of my headphones. Have now tried it with se846, Sony MDR, sennheiser HD25 and campfire solaris. Zero difference. If something sounds cleaner of with better staging I suddenly realise it’s because actually the perceived volume is louder. When I match the iPhone volume to it they are equal. I’m playing no lower that 96kHz 24 bit tracks and some 192kHz. Also tried many many Tidal Master tracks.

This DAP has been raved about like crazy. Again I really hate to sound like some kinda fanboy but I’m really impressed with this dongle setup. OK I understand not hearing a big difference with Shure, but the 75ohm HD25? Really?!

Ugh. What’s happening?

 

[118900]

So strange really because either my hearing is shot (quite unlikely) or this DAP isn’t playing well with any of my headphones. Have now tried it with se846, Sony MDR, sennheiser HD25 and campfire solaris. Zero difference. If something sounds cleaner of with better staging I suddenly realise it’s because actually the perceived volume is louder. When I match the iPhone volume to it they are equal. I’m playing no lower that 96kHz 24 bit tracks and some 192kHz. Also tried many many Tidal Master tracks.

This DAP has been raved about like crazy. Again I really hate to sound like some kinda fanboy but I’m really impressed with this dongle setup. OK I understand not hearing a big difference with Shure, but the 75ohm HD25? Really?!

Ugh. What’s happening?

Can you try it on a different source?

 

[davidcotton]

Is the SE846 best IEM for £500? So many options now

Where are you seeing them for £500? Best I can see is £650 on Amazon?