AFAIK it's not uncommon for Andromeda users to prefer sources with a few ohms of output impedance for exactly this reason. In those conditions is the difference significant enough to alter your opinions here?
I'm sure there's somebody out there who would swear by the Andromeda pairing with a HiBy R6 But I can't think of a scenario where a higher output-impedance device would reduce the mid-bass bloat. A higher z-out device would cause a greater voltage drop at a lower impedance load, and since the Andromeda's impedance tails off to 3.5 Ohm below 100 Hz, the sub-bass would take a bigger hit than the mid-bass, so it would actually make things worse in that regard. Maybe there'd be somebody who'd prefer the overall brighter sound, but it wouldn't be more accurate, because what bass you had left would be less controlled as higher z-out also means less electrical damping, so a flabby bass with less precise transients.
I have very tiny ears and tiny ear canals and large shells just don't work with me.
In fact I've had ear impressions done and out of the custom lineup of Westone (ES series), the maximum I could chose was the ES 30 (3 BA like UM Pro 30).
Other than those, they wouldn't fit my ear according to the audiologist.
As such I went ahead and got them but I'm still debating in the meanwhile looking into a TOTL IEM's for small ear canals (that are not etymotic because I can't deal with the deep insertion).
One of the contenders was Shure as I heard about them being very comfortable. They would take away the stupid sharp edge on the Andromeda that hurts your outer ear after a while.
For me personally though, I think they might still be too large (depth wise) and thus not sit flush in my ear all the time. Then again that begs the question which top IEM will
Perhaps 3 BA Custom is the only IEM life for me I just hope they sound good as I've read alot of reviews bashing the UM PRO 30 for bad treble response and being a bad IEM in general for classical music which is something I also enjoy from time to time.
I agree 100%. I desperately wish more OEMs would consider this. It's pointless designing the world's best-sounding headphones if they don't fit in people's ears. There's only a tiny handful of companies that produce small, ergonomically-shaped IEMs. Etymotic is out for you, because they need deep insertion. There's Shure (obviously), Westone, Rose Technics and Brainwavz (though none of these have SQ as good as Shure's, at least to my ears), RHA (the CL2 might be worth trying, if you can live with a very mid-centric frequency response), ... Ok, after that I'm struggling. Who have I missed? As others have said, the IE800(S) is amazingly tiny and comfy, as are the Xelentos and the FLC8N (its SQ punches way above its price point), but none of these are properly isolating. If your budget can stand it, and you don't mind carrying the electrostatic amp, the KSE1500 (or cheaper KSE1200) earbuds are smaller than the SE846...
I'm sure there's somebody out there who would swear by the Andromeda pairing with a HiBy R6 But I can't think of a scenario where a higher output-impedance device would reduce the mid-bass bloat. A higher z-out device would cause a greater voltage drop at a lower impedance load, and since the Andromeda's impedance tails off to 3.5 Ohm below 100 Hz, the sub-bass would take a bigger hit than the mid-bass, so it would actually make things worse in that regard. Maybe there'd be somebody who'd prefer the overall brighter sound, but it wouldn't be more accurate, because what bass you had left would be less controlled as higher z-out also means less electrical damping, so a flabby bass with less precise transients.
I agree 100%. I desperately wish more OEMs would consider this. It's pointless designing the world's best-sounding headphones if they don't fit in people's ears. There's only a tiny handful of companies that produce small, ergonomically-shaped IEMs. Etymotic is out for you, because they need deep insertion. There's Shure (obviously), Westone, Rose Technics and Brainwavz (though none of these have SQ as good as Shure's, at least to my ears), RHA (the CL2 might be worth trying, if you can live with a very mid-centric frequency response), ... Ok, after that I'm struggling. Who have I missed? As others have said, the IE800(S) is amazingly tiny and comfy, as are the Xelentos and the FLC8N (its SQ punches way above its price point), but none of these are properly isolating. If your budget can stand it, and you don't mind carrying the electrostatic amp, the KSE1500 (or cheaper KSE1200) earbuds are smaller than the SE846...
Custom Art Universals are tiny and ergonomically shaped, though don't know if they'd be small enough? How about Campfire Audio Comets or Atlas (though the latter seems to have it's own issues with fit issues with being large and heavy).
I'm sure there's somebody out there who would swear by the Andromeda pairing with a HiBy R6 But I can't think of a scenario where a higher output-impedance device would reduce the mid-bass bloat. A higher z-out device would cause a greater voltage drop at a lower impedance load, and since the Andromeda's impedance tails off to 3.5 Ohm below 100 Hz, the sub-bass would take a bigger hit than the mid-bass, so it would actually make things worse in that regard. Maybe there'd be somebody who'd prefer the overall brighter sound, but it wouldn't be more accurate, because what bass you had left would be less controlled as higher z-out also means less electrical damping, so a flabby bass with less precise transients.
I agree 100%. I desperately wish more OEMs would consider this. It's pointless designing the world's best-sounding headphones if they don't fit in people's ears. There's only a tiny handful of companies that produce small, ergonomically-shaped IEMs. Etymotic is out for you, because they need deep insertion. There's Shure (obviously), Westone, Rose Technics and Brainwavz (though none of these have SQ as good as Shure's, at least to my ears), RHA (the CL2 might be worth trying, if you can live with a very mid-centric frequency response), ... Ok, after that I'm struggling. Who have I missed? As others have said, the IE800(S) is amazingly tiny and comfy, as are the Xelentos and the FLC8N (its SQ punches way above its price point), but none of these are properly isolating. If your budget can stand it, and you don't mind carrying the electrostatic amp, the KSE1500 (or cheaper KSE1200) earbuds are smaller than the SE846...
Thanks for your input, I'll give them all a quick look
For now I'm waiting for my Custom ES30's to arrive.
The issue is when looking at the size of the UM 30's of Westone (which according to the audiologist) is my max size, it's very thin both depth and width wise
So thin I don't think any of the shures are that thin which is kinda meh because I really like the quality of Shure's (don't mind the treble roll off and electrostatics are amazingly interesting for someone who prefers details)
Don't want to hijack this topic though and I think the SE846 are still pretty great from what I heard from friends.
Colleague of mine who never liked IEM's tried this at CES and he came back to tell me he was amazed by it and even considered buying it as he felt the bass kicking so well with these
I want to push back a little on some recent Andromeda-related posts on this thread. I'm not quite sure why, but these types of comment seem to get posted here on a regular basis:
1) The SE846 is getting old.
2) Its treble rolls off.
3) There are better-sounding headphones out there.
4) You can buy a better pair of headphones for less than $300 these days.
5) The Andromeda is the gold-standard in audio, and we should all just move on from the obsolete SE846 and buy the Andromeda.
I agree with points 1-3. But let's put things in perspective:
1) Getting old only means obsolete if there's something newer which is better.
2) Yes, but that statement applies to every headphone ever made. The truth is, the treble on the SE846 rolls off perhaps(?) a little more than average with stock filters and long, narrow-bore foam tips; it rolls off much less than average with silicone tips and a free filter mod that takes less than a minute to do (the "Trishd" mod).
3) Those better-sounding headphones don't have the comfort, isolation and convenience of the SE846.
4) If this were true, I'd buy those <$300 headphones and then join in trolling the rest of you on this thread for continuing to be lame losers with your "obsolete" choice of the SE846 (No, actually, I wouldn't, but I would buy that magic sub-$300 pair of headphones, sell my SE846 and then tell you all about it.) I'm yet to find such a pair of headphones though.
5) Hmmmm... For those that don't know the Andromeda, let me highlight a few points before you lay down over $1000 for a downgrade in comfort, fit, isolation and possibly SQ too. The Andromeda is a fairly conventional multi-balanced armature IEM, which comes in a very unfortunately-shaped housing that digs into your ears. At least it does for me. These specific edges and this particular case screw are the main sources of discomfort for me:
But by suffering poor fit, poor isolation and outer-ear discomfort, at least we'll get vastly-improved sound quality, right? Well, frequency response is always subjective, so it's hard to know what any individual will prefer, but the usual claim that the Andromeda has much better treble extension is simply wrong. I think this myth has persisted because Andromeda has less sub-bass and less mid-range, so by comparison, its upper frequencies appear more prominent. But extension implies a later roll-off, and with most common SE846 eartip choices that isn't the case. Let's first look at the situation with different eartips (because that's really all you can change on the Andromeda). It's true that when comparing Andromeda with its stock Andro foam tips against SE846 with long, narrow-bore foam tips like P-series Comply, the foam kills more of the treble in the SE846 (you can click to enlarge any of these figures - also, unless otherwise stated, all measurements are averages of the L and R channels for each headphone and the SE846 have the Trishd-modded blue filters):
There's no ingenious design here in the Andromedas, it's just that they have much wider nozzles, so less of the wavefront gets attenuated by the foam:
The bores aren't quite as narrow on the SE846 when using most brands of silicone tip:
You pay a price for the wider nozzle on the Andromeda though - they don't easily and securely fit in your ears and their isolation isn't as good, because the walls of their foam tips are rather thin relative to any foam tip that would fit on the smaller-diameter nozzles of the SE846.
Now let's compare Andromeda with foam, silicone Cp155 SpinFits and silicone Spiral Dot tips:
As expected, there's more treble with silicone tips. The Spiral Dots don't isolate quite as well, which causes a slight tilt towards the upper register. So let's compare the Andromeda with tips that give the brightest FR measurements (Spiral Dots) to some other popular IEMs with silicone tips, including the SE846:
The Andromeda actually has the least amount of treble amplitude (y axis) up to 10 kHz of any of these headphones. The Andromeda's treble extension (x axis beyond 10 kHz) is nowhere near that of the KSE1500 and rolls off at almost exactly the same point as that of the SE846 with Trishd mod + Cp800 Spinfits. The Andromeda's FR is generally good, but if I have to be picky, it has a relatively heavy mid-bass. The absence of any proper low-pass filter (like that in the SE846) causes the low-end to bleed into the mids. Human ears need u-shaped sound signatures to match equal loudness over the audible spectrum, i.e., something that rises all the way into the sub-bass. A bloated mid-bass can often be a characteristic of cheap (and cheap-sounding) headphones. I guarantee you'll hear this effect on the Andromeda - it's not subtle. The Xelentos have a fairly chunky mid-bass too, but note how the low-end of every other headphone - apart from Andromeda - continues to rise into the sub-bass.
The Andromeda's THD is nothing special - it's pretty much what you'd expect from standard off-the-shelf balanced armature drivers:
Andromeda's impedance curve goes way lower than that of the SE846 at low frequencies, which, in turn, requires very tiny output impedances (based on the standard rule of 8) so as not to skew the frequency response:
I don't in any way consider this a design flaw, but its low impedance and high sensitivity does make the Andromeda a bit more picky about what's driving it. Andromeda being more sensitive than the SE846 means a direct A/B of the two without proper SPL matching would tend to favor the Andromeda. How many of you are careful about accurately SPL matching to within a fraction of a dB before doing your blind (obviously!) A/B testing? Honestly???
I didn't write this post to bash Campfire Audio, but I'm left scratching my head at the spate of recent posts that rave about the Andromeda. People should be aware of what they're getting into if they're considering selling their SE846 just because it's "old". Andromeda is a good-sounding headphone, but IMHO, replacing the SE846 with an Andromeda could be an expensive mistake. If you've tried the Trishd mod with silicone tips on the SE846 and still want more treble, there are headphones out there that have better treble-extension than the SE846, but the Andromeda isn't one of them.
No it doesn't. These measurements were supplied by Ken Ball on the Andromeda thread:
Volume-matching is always a little subjective when two headphones don't have the same FR, but mid-range is where most of the action is, and so normalizing at 1 kHz is a reasonable thing to do. Here's my attempt at that based on the previous graph. The S version is clearly less v-shaped - i.e., given the same mid-range volume setting, it has less bass and less treble than the standard version of the Andromeda:
For those that are interested, the Andromeda I measured was an Andromeda version 2.0. Here's how you can tell them apart:
Measurements shown are all raw (uncompensated) using an IEC60318-4 compliant coupler. Details/procedures/equipment are described here:
An important disclaimer on measurements: You should only ever use measurements to make relative comparisons from the same rig. In anticipation of comments like "your graphs suck", "your rig isn't professional/expensive enough", "these are inaccurate", "the Andromedas don't really measure like this", etc., etc., I have to point out that, yes, they do - at least within unit tolerance. Here are my measurements (individual left and right channels) compared with those supplied by Ken Ball from Campfire Audio:
Pfft 846 fanboys. 846 suxx!! It's liek, way old. More than an year! and has no treble extendation beyond 5 Hz... who cares about bass and mids. NuBz!!! Now excuse me while I go and indulge in some 80 kHz tones.
Such a wonderful combination.The sound profile of SE846 remains one of my favourites even after 4 years and having listened newer iems.To say that the SE846 scales with better DACS would be an understatement.The amount of detail and transparency i am hearing out of this combo is astounding and i am using unbalanced.As for the highs they are sublime,airy,smooth with very good extension and sparkle.I will never sell this earphone no matter what i buy next!
The fit is indeed hard to beat. I'm thinking about upgrading but can't find any that would provide equivalent sound isolation (I travel a lot) and comfort as these.
I even wear mine to sleep. Probably a bad thing but I just drift into the music at the end of the day
p/s: personally I haven't had any major experience with burn in but sometimes everything just sound right out of nowhere.
Got a kinda odd question you guys. It involves the WM1Z
I have a few sets of IEMS. Shure 846, DM6's, Campfire Andromeda. I use the 846's the most, I've been using a ALO Reference 8 4.4 balanced cable with the Shure's and Andromeda's, the DM6 is just a cheaper 4.4 balanced cable.
Being that I haven't used the 3.5mm output yet I decided to last night, to my surprise I noticed a more balanced centered image with more clarity (highs) in the right Shure IEM, I went back and fourth between balanced ALO and stock shure cable for more than 30 min using multiple tracks, I even tried the cheaper 4.4 balanced cable from the DM6's all reviled the same thing, the stock cable (3.5) sounded "normal" and the ALO and other 4.4 balanced cable didn't (right IEM)
I decided to test the DM6's and the Campfire using the same cables, to my surprise there was no sonic differences....Huh....weird. So it would seem there is an issue is the 846's? I know the drivers in both IEM's are all functioning being they sound totally identical via 3.5mm. Could it be the balanced cable and WM1Z output is reveling a flaw in that driver somehow?
I'm going to try and get another set of 846's to test if it indeed my set or possible a 846 problem. I've been on a couple other Shure forums but haven't come across anyone else with the same issue as mine.
Got a kinda odd question you guys. It involves the WM1Z
I have a few sets of IEMS. Shure 846, DM6's, Campfire Andromeda. I use the 846's the most, I've been using a ALO Reference 8 4.4 balanced cable with the Shure's and Andromeda's, the DM6 is just a cheaper 4.4 balanced cable.
Being that I haven't used the 3.5mm output yet I decided to last night, to my surprise I noticed a more balanced centered image with more clarity (highs) in the right Shure IEM, I went back and fourth between balanced ALO and stock shure cable for more than 30 min using multiple tracks, I even tried the cheaper 4.4 balanced cable from the DM6's all reviled the same thing, the stock cable (3.5) sounded "normal" and the ALO and other 4.4 balanced cable didn't (right IEM)
I decided to test the DM6's and the Campfire using the same cables, to my surprise there was no sonic differences....Huh....weird. So it would seem there is an issue is the 846's? I know the drivers in both IEM's are all functioning being they sound totally identical via 3.5mm. Could it be the balanced cable and WM1Z output is reveling a flaw in that driver somehow?
I'm going to try and get another set of 846's to test if it indeed my set or possible a 846 problem. I've been on a couple other Shure forums but haven't come across anyone else with the same issue as mine.
My best guess would be it's something to do with the connectors. MMCX isn't always perfectly universal and drop-out free. Have you tried deoxit on your balanced-cable connectors? If that doesn't help, what happens if you switch the left and right SE846 buds around on the cables? Do you then hear the effect in the left channel, or does it still affect the right channel?
My best guess would be it's something to do with the connectors. MMCX isn't always perfectly universal and drop-out free. Have you
connectors? If that doesn't help, what happens if you switch the left and right SE846 buds around on the cables? Do you then hear the effect in the left channel, or does it still affect the right channel?
Sorry. To my limited brain that's not entirely clear. Driver = what's driving the source material (WM1Z channel) or driver = driver(s) in the individual earbuds? What's the effect when you put the SE846 right earbud on the left channel of your balanced cable(s) and the left earbud on the right channel of the same cable?
You could try cleaning both your SE846 sockets and all cable plugs.
It would also be worth testing with another balanced source in case there's something going on with the WM1Z balanced output that you're just not noticing with the other headphones. (The effects of increasing cable+connector impedance will be quite different in the Andromeda and the SE846.) Might also be a good idea to put a digital multimeter on that balanced cable and see how the left and right channels measure.
Sorry. To my limited brain that's not entirely clear. Driver = what's driving the source material (WM1Z channel) or driver = driver(s) in the individual earbuds? What's the effect when you put the SE846 right earbud on the left channel of your balanced cable(s) and the left earbud on the right channel of the same cable?
You could try cleaning both your SE846 sockets and all cable plugs.
It would also be worth testing with another balanced source in case there's something going on with the WM1Z balanced output that you're just not noticing with the other headphones. (The effects of increasing cable+connector impedance will be quite different in the Andromeda and the SE846.) Might also be a good idea to put a digital multimeter on that balanced cable and see how the left and right channels measure.
Apologize for the short answer earlier.I was referring to the 846's. when I put the SE846 right earbud on the left channel of the balanced cable(s) and the left earbud on the right channel of the same cable the issue follows the earbud.
Unfortunately I don't have another source with a 4.4 out, and the fact that I don't have issues with other IEM's with the WM1Z, I'm hoping I can rule that out.
Thanks for the link, I'll order some up. Also thank you for the troubleshooting tips.
Got a kinda odd question you guys. It involves the WM1Z
I have a few sets of IEMS. Shure 846, DM6's, Campfire Andromeda. I use the 846's the most, I've been using a ALO Reference 8 4.4 balanced cable with the Shure's and Andromeda's, the DM6 is just a cheaper 4.4 balanced cable.
Being that I haven't used the 3.5mm output yet I decided to last night, to my surprise I noticed a more balanced centered image with more clarity (highs) in the right Shure IEM, I went back and fourth between balanced ALO and stock shure cable for more than 30 min using multiple tracks, I even tried the cheaper 4.4 balanced cable from the DM6's all reviled the same thing, the stock cable (3.5) sounded "normal" and the ALO and other 4.4 balanced cable didn't (right IEM)
I decided to test the DM6's and the Campfire using the same cables, to my surprise there was no sonic differences....Huh....weird. So it would seem there is an issue is the 846's? I know the drivers in both IEM's are all functioning being they sound totally identical via 3.5mm. Could it be the balanced cable and WM1Z output is reveling a flaw in that driver somehow?
I'm going to try and get another set of 846's to test if it indeed my set or possible a 846 problem. I've been on a couple other Shure forums but haven't come across anyone else with the same issue as mine.
Has nothing to do with the connectors. What is the impedance out on the Sony? If its high - then its a damping and crossover issue. Higher impedance from your source will skew the frequency response. Often happens with very low impedance multi-BA IEMs (especially if they have crossovers)
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But I can't think of a scenario where a higher output-impedance device would reduce the mid-bass bloat. A higher z-out device would cause a greater voltage drop at a lower impedance load, and since the Andromeda's impedance tails off to 3.5 Ohm below 100 Hz, the sub-bass would take a bigger hit than the mid-bass, so it would actually make things worse in that regard. Maybe there'd be somebody who'd prefer the overall brighter sound, but it wouldn't be more accurate, because what bass you had left would be less controlled as higher z-out also means less electrical damping, so a flabby bass with less precise transients.I just hope they sound good as I've read alot of reviews bashing the UM PRO 30 for bad treble response and being a bad IEM in general for classical music which is something I also enjoy from time to time.
