[Hammy]

  As I pointed out, the delay has to be on account of the RS165, because plugging a set of wired headphones into the exact same jack as the RS165 reveals no lip-sync issues whatsoever  - it is exactly the same as listening via the in-built speakers - perfect. Perhaps Rosmadi can advise whether the higher end models have less lag than the inexpensive RS165 since there are very few reviews here or elsewhere relating to the RS165 and I simply assumed the lag would be no worse than the 175 and 185.\\
 
I deliberately avoided buying the RS195 because the DSP would add even more lag and I was worried about spending the money only to find the TV wouldn't be able to compensate. But with the RS165, even when I set the audio advance to maximum - which, when using wired headphones puts the sound WAY ahead of the picture - is not always enough to compensate for the considerable RS165 lag. I was watching something on Netflix last night and even with maximum audio advance, the lip sync issues (sound behind the video) - were still obvious with the RS165 and yet non-existent with wired phones plugged into the very same jack.
 
I'd been using wired headphones for two years out of the very same headphone jack without any lip sync problems at all, so it is disappointing for them to only start after getting these wireless headphones, especially after reading comments that the lag shouldn't be noticeable and having done a considerable amount of testing to make sure my TV was able to advance the audio over the video to compensate. Whilst it can do this, it is still obvious that the adjustment is not enough in all cases and that 5 increments is too broad an adjustment to get it really perfect (as I say, the setting that seems best most of the time is between -4 and -5).

 
Not meaning to sound rude, but I think if the RS165 had an inherent problem with lip-sync we would have heard about it by now.
 
What kind of delay are we talking about (seconds?)
Have you tried with bass boost on and off?  Any additional processing has the potential to cause a delay.
Does your TV have a red/white RCA out?  Could be interesting to try a 3.5mm->RCA cable instead of from the headphone jack.
Do you have another source you could test them on?  Use the 3.5mm cable to play a video from a phone, tablet.
 
Rosmadi should reply in a few days, jet set lifestyle and all that

 

 

[ADD]

I'm not using bass boost (I hate excessive bass). I just checked with LG support and the adjustability of my 2014 model Smart TV apparently goes from the sound being 50 milliseconds ahead of the video (effectively video delay) to 150 milliseconds behind the video (audio delay). It is adjustable in 10 millisecond increments so there are a total of 20 settings (-50 to +150 milliseconds). A setting of 0 (factory default) theoretically makes the audio and video perfectly in sync and does so in practice as well.
 
Thus, when using wired headphones I can leave the above setting at the factory default of 0 and do not have lip sync issues. When I use the RS165 via the very same output jack, however, a setting of - 4 is too little (audio is still behind the video) and - 5 is too much (audio is ahead of the video). Those settings correspond to the audio output being 40 and 50 milliseconds ahead of the video respectively.
 
That being the case, on my setup the effective audio lag I experience with my RS165 is approximately somewhere in the region of 40 and 50 milliseconds. I say approximately because I do not have the technology to precisely measure it to the last millisecond or two. I can only say that it sits roughly midway between 40 and 50 milliseconds since I said earlier the setting that would be perfect sits somewhere between -4 and -5. It also follows, therefore, that since I can tell that the 40 millisecond setting puts the audio behind the video and 50 milliseconds puts the audio ahead of the video, that my own sensory perception has the capability to distinguish synchronisation at below a 10 millisecond threshold.
 
I only point the above so that people reading my posts can get an absolute idea of what I am seeing (hearing) with the RS165. I do not know if my perceptive capabilities are better than normal, worse or just average since I am not aware of any scientific studies on this subject. Obviously if I am "lucky" (or should that be cursed), people watching my own setup using my RS165 may never even remotely see the problem that I see.
 
Then again, given that LG allows user such fine delay adjustment, you would wonder why they would bother if they felt no one would ever notice it. So I think my perceptions still falls within a normal range.
 
Bottom line is, however, that if you are not sensitive to lip sync issues below a 10 millisecond threshold, the RS165 won't be a problem on my TV, or any other TV where you can advance the audio up to 40 or 50 milliseconds ahead of the video from the factory default setting. As I said earlier, I do not know if video delay(audio advance) is a common feature or not, though obviously audio delay is.
 
But I would still like to know if there are differing lag specs between the RS165 and RS195. I would happily fork out for an RS195 if I know it was less laggy than the RS165.
 
As for how the optical output works on the TV, I have no DAC at hand to test it versus the analogue output, since the TV system and my audio workstation are in different parts of the house. But it stands to reason that there is some extra lag from the TV having to perform a digital to analogue conversion on the headphone output; conversely, if you connect an RS175/185/195 to an optical output, then they will also inevitably introduce lag through having to do the same conversion at some point themselves.
 
So it comes down to processing speed. If the RS195 has more overall processing power than the RS165, the lag will be less (all other things being equal including not deploying the DSP features of the RS195 which would add even more lag versus the RS165). My concern of course is that were I to buy an RS195, I will have insufficient video delay adjustment on the TV to cope with the lag if the DSP functions are enabled on the RS195, unless the RS195 is a faster processor of audio than the RS165. Hopefully Sennheiser can answer this for me. 

 

[ADD]

Sorry, double post.

 

[ADD]

Here is a good article on lip sync perception. Although my annoyance at it being "out" by less than 10 ms is possibly a little above average, it is also recognised to be well within human capability. Apparently humans can be sensitive to it even below 1 ms - a lag which is supposed to be only achievable with analogue based wireless headphones such as the RS120.
 
That being the case, I think it is fair to say that everyone's mileage will vary as regards the perception of lip sync issues when using the range of RS165 - RS195  Sennheiser wireless headphones. And the degree of annoyance will be determined by an individual's sensitivity (apparently known as the "recognition threshold") along with the ability of their equipment to compensate.
 
http://www.lipfix.com/lip_sync_error.html

 

[ADD]

   
Do you have another source you could test them on?  Use the 3.5mm cable to play a video from a phone, tablet.
 

OK, just tried them on my Lenovo laptop watching some Netflix. The lag is really awful to my eyes / ears to the point where I can't watch it. Mind you, I cannot adjust the audio or video delay on the laptop like I can on the TV. The synchronisation is, however, perfectly fine using my CX300 earphones in the very same output jack.
 
This is making me quite worried about investing in these headphones. I obviously can only use them with devices that can push the audio ahead of the video by at least 40 milliseconds. I hope my LG Smart TV lasts a long time!!

 

[Ted Arsovsky]

To Coldsnap.
 
Based more or less on your comments, I have done exactly the same thing, and acquired the RS 175 set, then followed up with an HDR 185 to complete the set.
Our experience has been pretty much everything you have succinctly stated!
 
To BumpThumper,
 
Excellent assessment!
Again, we are completely satisfied with our purchases of the RS 175 set along with the HDR 185 headset.
 
Cheers!
Ted in Niagara Region of Canada

 

[Ted Arsovsky]

Ok, here is my experience with RS 175 + HDR 185 ...
The balance feature of the HDR 185 WILL affect the sound balance on the 175 headset, trust me!
It has happened, and the ONLY way to (re)set the sound back to equal on L and R is to do so on the HDR 185 headset.
Of course, if one needs balance adjusted on the 185, but not on the 175, it is not possible.
 
The bass boost on the 175 WILL affect the base on the 185 headset, trust me!
Again, depressing the button on the 175 headset will cancel out the bass boost on the 185.
However, the 175 would then not continue to have the bass boost experience.
 
Same for the surround sound feature.  Once toggled to one of the 3 presets on the 175, it is then set on the 185.
Same reset procedure changes the effect for BOTH headsets.
 
Personally, we like all of these features (except the one that changes balance, so when one of us needs the feature, they will be listening alone ).
 
(additional info) ... The effects impacting upon one headset from the other DO NOT get reset simply by turning off the other.
Heaven forbid that one of the headsets fails, and one is left with un-resettable settings (other than a re-pairing, of course).
 
Hope this helps anyone considering such a set up.
Ted in Niagara Region of Canada.

 

[Kashinoda]

 
Thus, when using wired headphones I can leave the above setting at the factory default of 0 and do not have lip sync issues. When I use the RS165 via the very same output jack, however, a setting of - 4 is too little (audio is still behind the video) and - 5 is too much (audio is ahead of the video). Those settings correspond to the audio output being 40 and 50 milliseconds ahead of the video respectively.
 
That being the case, on my setup the effective audio lag I experience with my RS165 is approximately somewhere in the region of 40 and 50 milliseconds. I say approximately because I do not have the technology to precisely measure it to the last millisecond or two. I can only say that it sits roughly midway between 40 and 50 milliseconds since I said earlier the setting that would be perfect sits somewhere between -4 and -5. It also follows, therefore, that since I can tell that the 40 millisecond setting puts the audio behind the video and 50 milliseconds puts the audio ahead of the video, that my own sensory perception has the capability to distinguish synchronisation at below a 10 millisecond threshold.
 
 

 
You're saying you can perceive 5ms audio desynchronisation? Wireless probably isn't the route for you then because that's a crazy intolerance.
 
Maybe you could try the SteelSeries Arctis 7:
https://steelseries.com/gaming-headsets/arctis-7
 
I play Counter Strike: Global Offensive at 144hz/144fps and can't notice any sync issues with the RS175... and I'm fairly sensitive.

 

[ADD]

   
You're saying you can perceive 5ms audio desynchronisation? Wireless probably isn't the route for you then because that's a crazy intolerance.
 
Maybe you could try the SteelSeries Arctis 7:
https://steelseries.com/gaming-headsets/arctis-7
 
I play Counter Strike: Global Offensive at 144hz/144fps and can't notice any sync issues with the RS175... and I'm fairly sensitive.

Well yes, I guess that would be correct since I can see the difference between 40 and 50 millseconds. However, I am actually able to tolerate the lack of fine adjustment meaning that it can still be "out" by 5 ms and I am not too distracted. So long as I can get absorbed "into" the program I am watching and try not to look at people's lips and mouths too much, it is OK even though I can still see it is not synchronised properly. For example, Netflix on my Smart TV and using the RS165 needs about 45 ms video delay. So I set it at 50 ms video delay and can watch it OK on the RS165. I just watched the first 15 episodes of Shadow Hunters over the last week using the RS165 and never got to the point where I ever worried about lip sync on those settings. My Flip TV (BBC Pay TV) needs a tad over 40 ms. So I set that at 40 ms and it is very close to bang-on. Again, no real issues.
 
What I can't tolerate is not having any adjustment in the first place. But so long as I can adjust up to 50 ms video delay then I am happy to put up with the inaccuracies caused by the lack of "infinite" adjustment (I am not sure why there are gradients of 10 ms instead of a "slider" control with, say 1 ms adjustments but again LG probably think that most humans don't need such fine adjustment and I think they might be right.
 
The only time so far I have not been able to adjust it was a Netflix documentary (Aircraft Resurrections) where at the TV set's default audio delay adjustment, the audio was already quite laggy by about 40 ms (this is quite rare). In this case, the 50 ms adjustment wasn't anywhere near enough since I needed a video delay of about 90 ms. Not possible to achieve unfortunately.
 
As for my low level of tolerance I am actually not that surprised when I think about it because I am not surprised at reports I have read where humans can perceive even 1 ms. If you consider, for example, that many "ticks" and pops on a vinyl LP might actually only last 6 ms or so yet we can easily perceive the length time they take, these sorts of very short time intervals are actually quite a bit longer so far as our brain is concerned than we might otherwise think.
 
But don't anyone get me wrong. Apart from needing to take into consideration possible lag issues and the heat retention of the earpads, I really love these phones. They have added so much enjoyment to my TV watching because they allow for excellent detail and clarity at very low listening levels - which was exactly what I was after.

 

[Hammy]

  Well yes, I guess that would be correct since I can see the difference between 40 and 50 millseconds. However, I am actually able to tolerate the lack of fine adjustment meaning that it can still be "out" by 5 ms and I am not too distracted. So long as I can get absorbed "into" the program I am watching and try not to look at people's lips and mouths too much, it is OK even though I can still see it is not synchronised properly. For example, Netflix on my Smart TV and using the RS165 needs about 45 ms video delay. So I set it at 50 ms video delay and can watch it OK on the RS165. I just watched the first 15 episodes of Shadow Hunters over the last week using the RS165 and never got to the point where I ever worried about lip sync on those settings. My Flip TV (BBC Pay TV) needs a tad over 40 ms. So I set that at 40 ms and it is very close to bang-on. Again, no real issues.
 
What I can't tolerate is not having any adjustment in the first place. But so long as I can adjust up to 50 ms video delay then I am happy to put up with the inaccuracies caused by the lack of "infinite" adjustment (I am not sure why there are gradients of 10 ms instead of a "slider" control with, say 1 ms adjustments but again LG probably think that most humans don't need such fine adjustment and I think they might be right.
 
The only time so far I have not been able to adjust it was a Netflix documentary (Aircraft Resurrections) where at the TV set's default audio delay adjustment, the audio was already quite laggy by about 40 ms (this is quite rare). In this case, the 50 ms adjustment wasn't anywhere near enough since I needed a video delay of about 90 ms. Not possible to achieve unfortunately.
 
As for my low level of tolerance I am actually not that surprised when I think about it because I am not surprised at reports I have read where humans can perceive even 1 ms. If you consider, for example, that many "ticks" and pops on a vinyl LP might actually only last 6 ms or so yet we can easily perceive the length time they take, these sorts of very short time intervals are actually quite a bit longer so far as our brain is concerned than we might otherwise think.
 
But don't anyone get me wrong. Apart from needing to take into consideration possible lag issues and the heat retention of the earpads, I really love these phones. They have added so much enjoyment to my TV watching because they allow for excellent detail and clarity at very low listening levels - which was exactly what I was after.

The way you were talking originally, I thought we were talking on the order of multiple seconds.  40-50ms is approximately one frame at 23.976fps.  I am quite sure I couldn't ABX a difference of one frame per second when it comes to lip-sync, let alone 1/10th of a frame.
 
It would be a nice feature if, on the next incarnation, Sennheiser would include an adjustment knob on the base station for progressing/delaying the audio by upto a second or so.  You'd think it would be technically possible.

 

[cloneman]

Hi everyone.
 
I recently picked up the RS 175 and I have an RS185 add-on on the way. I find the RS 175's sound jarring compared to my SteelSeries H. I can't quantify exactly why my ears don't like it yet. I'm starting to play with Peace EQ (https://sourceforge.net/projects/peace-equalizer-apo-extension/) I'm gonna try and learn how to use an equalizer, it seems to help a bit.
 
I haven't figured out why I'm bothered by the RS175 yet. Bass sounds a little too intense for one, and Lowering the 4000Hz in the EQ seems to help with harsher mids. I like a lot of bass, but these sound like they have Sony XB700 's What bass disease instead of the bass I've learned to love from products like the Koss Portapro, the Jaybird X2  with Comply Foam isolation.
 
If anyone has EQ advice or other advice for the RS175 that might make it sound more like other lower end products I've used I'm interested. It's worth noting that I tend to struggle with audiophile grade stuff, I didn't like the HD598 either. I listen to a lot of mediocre quality music that for some reason sounds good on 50$ wired headphones or 150$ bluetooth IEMs.
 
The main reason I wanted to replace the Steelseries H is that they don't get loud enough for music, although they are fine for games, youtube and most movies.

 

[Hammy]

  Hi everyone.
 
I recently picked up the RS 175 and I have an RS185 add-on on the way. I find the RS 175's sound jarring compared to my SteelSeries H. I can't quantify exactly why my ears don't like it yet. I'm starting to play with Peace EQ (https://sourceforge.net/projects/peace-equalizer-apo-extension/) I'm gonna try and learn how to use an equalizer, it seems to help a bit.
 
I haven't figured out why I'm bothered by the RS175 yet. Bass sounds a little too intense for one, and Lowering the 4000Hz in the EQ seems to help with harsher mids. I like a lot of bass, but these sound like they have Sony XB700 's What bass disease instead of the bass I've learned to love from products like the Koss Portapro, the Jaybird X2  with Comply Foam isolation.
 
If anyone has EQ advice or other advice for the RS175 that might make it sound more like other lower end products I've used I'm interested. It's worth noting that I tend to struggle with audiophile grade stuff, I didn't like the HD598 either. I listen to a lot of mediocre quality music that for some reason sounds good on 50$ wired headphones or 150$ bluetooth IEMs.
 
The main reason I wanted to replace the Steelseries H is that they don't get loud enough for music, although they are fine for games, youtube and most movies.

 
Hi @cloneman,
 
I haven't heard the RS175 but you are definitely on the right track with Peace/Equalizer APO.  It's the best way that I know of (via software) to EQ headphones.  Perhaps try a -8db shelf below 1khz, basically the opposite of what we did here.
 
I'll quote what The Wirecutter said about the RS175:
 

Sennheiser RS 175: Yet another Sennheiser replacement model (the RS 170 was discontinued), the RS 175 ended up being a huge flop with our test panel. Brent summed it up: “These are a mess.” The RS 175 has a bass-boost option; in our tests, with the bass boost turned off, the overall sound was thin and edgy, lifeless. Piano sounded like a bad digital-keyboard representation of a piano sound. The low end was somewhat pitchless, so hip-hop and intense orchestral soundtracks (like that of The Lord of the Rings) seemed to lose their oomph. Geoff also remarked that the highs had a sizzly quality when the volume was turned up.

 
Is that what you're experiencing?  They go on to praise the RS185 which, aside from cost, was one of their favourites.  I think you'll like the RS185 as they have quite a lot of bass for an open headphone, certainly more than the HD598.

 

[ADD]

 
The way you were talking originally, I thought we were talking on the order of multiple seconds.  40-50ms is approximately one frame at 23.976fps.  I am quite sure I couldn't ABX a difference of one frame per second when it comes to lip-sync, let alone 1/10th of a frame.
 
It would be a nice feature if, on the next incarnation, Sennheiser would include an adjustment knob on the base station for progressing/delaying the audio by upto a second or so.  You'd think it would be technically possible.

 
Just bear in mind that for people incredibly sensitive to it, the actual mathematical amount by which audio and video are not in sync is not so much the issue as the degree of annoyance it causes. If it causes a viewer to either lose interest in the production they are watching or causes sufficient distraction for them to not to get "absorbed" into that movie, then it is a problem no matter how small or large the lag is.
 
Obviously it is impossible for Sennheiser as a headphone manufacturer to either actually advance the audio (or delay the video). That can only be done by the TV set or AV receiver. That said, I hope Sennheiser might consider a very fine tuning calibration (recessed screw) in the back of the transmitter such that the user can perform fine tuning within the broad increments of advance / delay adjustments offered by the TV manufacturers. The TV sets and AV receivers all seem to only have 10 ms or 15 ms increments which for me is far too broad, since I cannot find a setting that works. If I had that fine calibration adjustment, I would have found a perfect setting for the RS165. But it is the lack of fine calibration that is an ongoing problem for me.
 
Onto other things and I have now also bought the RS195, since the RS165 is good for pottering around the house listening to streaming radio and I will reserve the RS195 for the TV. On the plus side, the lag of the RS195 through the 3.5mm analogue input is less than the RS165. I would estimate maybe 15% to 20% less. So the RS195 is indeed a faster "processor" through the analogue input. That said, I still have the problem of the lack of fine adjustment as I alluded to above. So infact the situation for me has not improved with the RS195 over the RS165 as I am still "in between" the audio advance settings available on the TV - only this time they are now one notch further to the right (less advance) because the RS195 has less lag than the RS165.
 
On the other hand, via the optical output, the lag with the RS195 was sufficiently bad that I had insufficient adjustment to cope with it at all. Even at maximum audio advance, it was still noticeably laggy via the optical output. Since the RS165 does not have an optical input I cannot compare the two using a digital input but for me at least, the RS195 is just far too laggy to use via an optical connection on my TV.
 
Furthermore, the DSP features on the RS195 add substantial lag yet again - almost as much again as exists to begin with when no DSP is enabled. So even when using the analogue input which is less laggy, I can't use any of the DSP features since again there is insufficient compensation on the TV to counteract it. And I'd need a good 100 ms audio advance (my guess) to use the RS195 with an optical input and the DSP enabled. This is very disappointing I have to say. The only saving grace here is that the DSP sounds very strange to me anyway - very fierce and piercing sounding even with the mildest adjustments from neutral - none of these settings are of any use to me as none of them sound right. But I had hoped to use the function that emphasises speech since some movies have overwhelming sound effects and very large dynamic range. UInfortunately, though, I can't even use that feature without the lip sync getting too far out of whack.
 
So overall this experience has been quite disappointing, especially for me as a long-time Sennheiser fan who owns other Sennheiser products and loves them (such as the IE800 and PXC300 - headphones I will never be getting rid of). I accept that I am probably at the "pointy end" of people who are sensitive to lip sync problems caused by wireless and DSP processing, but I did not expect my experiences with both the RS165 and particularly the RS195 (given the high price) to be as disappointing as they have been.
 
Anyway, that is all I will say or add to this thread. So you can now go back to your usual programming of praising this line of headphones

 

[Cqef]

I've yet to try out watching movies with it though, just for the sake of checking if the wider dynamic range in those would become a problem.

 


Ok so I finally decided to watch a film with my RS185, and went with Star Wars Episode 3: Revenge of the Siths.
I kinda knew how much I'd need to crank up the volume with my other pair of headphones+DAC/amp for this film, so I got it to max volume (until it beeped) from the beginning.
I, err... almost regretted it because of how loud the music in the intro was (you know, the yellow-scrolling synopsis) which actually ended up just right, but let me explain.
It is just right, only as long as you get theatre-like conditions. By that, I mean a quiet room.
Due to lack of noise isolation of their open-back design, should you get a bit of a noisy environment, it might actually interfere with some low-volume scenes. Not to the point of no longer being able to hear them anymore of course, but you'd definitely lose detail. But if your room is quiet, it's perfect.
As for high-volume action-packed scenes, it was plenty loud enough. Would I want more volume? Nope. Any more, and I'm pretty sure I'd set a favourable ground for the premature demise of my eardrums.

All in all, I found that the RS185 dealt pretty well with the wide dynamic range of this film, and sounded amazing. But like I said, you have to make sure you get those theatre-like conditions first. And if you do, you'd definitely get a theatre-like experience.

 

[AtrafCreez]

I have RS 180 and RS 195 both have amp and DAC included, so I wonder if the RS 185 you have even needs an amp.  To make the RS 195 LOUD there is a trick needed.