[krmathis]

..and the plastic discussion goes on. "Just" 316 posts so far...

 

[davidhunternyc]

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Willett /img/forum/go_quote.gif Er - that's what an independent review is - if the reviewer has any connection it's not an independent review. Stating the obvious here

Er - it is supposed to be obvious but obviously it hasn't been. You seem to believe the claims made for it too.

 

[immtbiker]

Let it go, dude, let it go.

Life is too short. We could die at any time.

 

[Snacks]

Quote:

Originally Posted by davidhunternyc /img/forum/go_quote.gif Thanks Andrew for clearing this up. I just wanted to contrast the two headphones build quality. Both quotations are from other members statements and are not my own. I have not heard the SA5000 but since this thread is only about design, I am very impressed with the design decisions and with the build quality that Sony has put into the SA5000. Maybe now that the HD800 is out, Sony will step up to the plate, and make a new improved version of the SA5000.

I'm being genuine when I say this, but maybe you and those on here that share similar ideas should boycott anything or anyone that paints plastic to make it appear like something it is not. Someone has to take a stand, why not you; I don't think it would be a bad idea to start a petition.

Also, it seems like the SA5000 is right up your alley, why don't you try it or similar authentic offerings? If you do not like the sound, why not take what you do like in terms of sound and have it customized to your liking?

 

[davidhunternyc]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snacks /img/forum/go_quote.gif I'm being genuine when I say this, but maybe you and those on here that share similar ideas should boycott anything or anyone that paints plastic to make it appear like something it is not. Someone has to take a stand, why not you; I don't think it would be a bad idea to start a petition. Also, it seems like the SA5000 is right up your alley, why don't you try it or similar authentic offerings? If you do not like the sound, why not take what you do like in terms of sound and have it customized to your liking?

Snacks, you are a God-send, and I'm not being facetious. Yes, I have felt for some time now that I have had to take a stand and that is what I'm doing on this thread. I can't say that I am being persecuted for it because this isn't life and death here, but plenty of people have been raking me over the coals and I have been accused of bashing the HD800's. I do not think that is what my opening post is about and I would challenge anyone to find where I've bashed anything. Even though I have singled out the HD800 it is because it is going to be Sennheiser's reference headphone but everything that I have said would also apply to any headphone made with silver spray-painted plastic. This is not just about Sennheiser. For anyone to say that Sennheiser didn't use the Sony MDR-SA5000 as a blueprint for their design would be delusional. The similarities are just too obvious. It is amazing to me that the SA5000 is made from magnesium and I haven't read one thing about the metal transferring unwanted resonances to the sound or that the magnesium has an affect on the sound signature. If anything, the faults with the SA5000 has to do with the driver and its engineering principles but not with the design of the headphone itself. I am already sure that the HD800 will surpass the SA5000 in terms of sound quality. I just wished the HD800 surpassed the SA5000 in build quality as well.

By the way, my list of Holy Grail headphones would be: Sony R10, Grado HP1000, and Sony Qualia 010. The one thing they all have in common is fantastic build quality and brilliant designs.

 

[nakedhand]

I hear you davidhunternyc. I am the owner of the same set of irrational allergic reactions to silver painted plastic.

But what really surprised me when I first saw the HD800, was the shaping itself! The design is a total failure from my point of view. There is no way I would be able to enjoy this product whole heartedly, no matter the terrific nature of the sound, with a mock up like this on my head.

It is quite unbelievable to me that anyone approved of this clunky piece of clichés wrapped in a wanna be futuristic misunderstanding. Certain elements actually work pretty well, they are kind of elegant, but when it all comes together it turns into a contradiction without direction. The top bracket and the way they executed the broken circle represents the main problems as far as I see it.

I get the feeling Sennheiser have been trying to aim in several directions at once here. A "statement" or "top of the line" headphone need not attract the silvercoated plastic afficionado segment, or the odd and disproportionate futurists for that matter. How about elegance, grace, harmony? I certainly do not see that here as a whole! I would fire someone for approving this. I am sure they are loosing lots of customers on the basis of its visually hideous nature.

Dont flame me please, we are allowed to have different taste in design right

...and I happen to have a lot of oppinions on this matter.

Cheers!

 

[davidhunternyc]

Nakehand, I think this is the first time since I've started this thread that one of my posts was bracketed with other posts that support my point of view. Maybe I am getting somewhere. I concur with you too about what you've said about the other elements of the HD800's design. Next to the Qualia 010 and the SA5000, the HD800 looks ho-hum, clumsy even. I do not think that Sennheiser will be losing lots of customers based on its design however. It is pretty evident here that sound quality is the only thing that matters and it just doesn't seem that audiophile minded people are passionate about design. Contrarily, I do believe that if Sennhesier made a drop dead gorgeous headphone, however, that they would sell a lot more of them. It seems that only once in a blue moon does sound quality and build quality meet to form something greater than the sum of its parts and become a Holy Grail headphone; hence the Sony R10. There is a real possibility that if the HD800 holds up to the hype, that I may very well purchase them. I will enjoy them immensely, I'm sure. Yet, will they hold a special place in my heart like the Qualia or the R10? No way.

On a side note, my axe to grind on this thread is with the silver-spray painted plastic. I would be interested in reading more of your thoughts about the shape and form of the HD800.

 

[davidhunternyc]

Quote:

Originally Posted by immtbiker /img/forum/go_quote.gif Let it go, dude, let it go. Life is too short. We could die at any time.

In the end, we are just food for the sun.

 

[aos]

I have not read the entire thread but I agree with the "cheap looking plastic must die". And the silver painted plastic is one of the ugliest things on the planet. It's one of my personal little hates.

Given the recent track record of Sennheiser pricing (every flagship model tends to cost 2x what the previous one was) and MSRP games they're playing - just check Canadian pricing - I don't need much convincing to believe that cost was the primary reason for using plastic. And releasing this during one of the greatest economic crises in history at this price point is just mind boggling.

I'm a bit of a snob. I like to buy expensive stuff. But, I only buy GOOD expensive stuff. As my late grandfather said, "I'm not rich enough to buy cheap stuff". The item must genuinely be the best (at least subjectively). And it must look like it deserves the price. HD-800 does not look like that. There's no excuse for not using carbon fiber or titanium or aircraft grade aluminum or whatever else at this price point, not to mention in this economy. At this price point the looks DO matter. I know a lot of people would disagree but I would not buy an ugly looking expensive gadget, no matter what the performance is.

I don't place much weight on early reviews - pretty much any new flagship headphone has the same kind of buzz. Vendors must ramp up the interest. You can almost sense the desperation. Then a year or two later those same headphones sell for half the price, and forums are full of people selling theirs to upgrade to the next hot thing. That's when I buy. I got 650 a few months ago and right now I am looking to get DT-880 and/or AKG-701 - all at much lower cost than at launch time. Sure, it doesn't always happen - AKG-1000 was discontinued and still commands the same price, used. Some headphones become collector's items. But the question is, are they really anything more than that? Why would companies discontinue good products? I'd argue because their drawbacks are higher than their benefits. If I look at drawbacks of all the major collector's headphones - various Grados, Sonys and AKG's - I personally do not feel the attraction.

If HD-800 is REALLY that good, in a year or so when stock at multiple vendors is plentiful (so there is price competition) and a lot of reviews and comparisons (including burn-in) has happened, and the economy has recovered enough so that spending $1000+ doesn't look foolish, then I might consider getting it, plastic or not. But it would need to be REALLY good.

 

[nakedhand]

Quote:

I do believe that if Sennhesier made a drop dead gorgeous headphone, however, that they would sell a lot more of them.

Agreed. They would win over the design "snobs", or design "aware" much easier. I certainly dont consider myself a snob, elitism gives me negative goosebumps. But it takes hirering the right people to produce Qualias, even K701s.

The talent is out there for sure. And it blows my mind that someone is not paying attention to what is happening in other areas of emerging industrial design.

Like this:
Ross Lovegrove shares organic designs | Video on TED.com

Better shapes with similar or same materials is not more expensive with the manufacturing techniques we have today. It is solely the consequence of having incompetent and fearful people at the helm, that we see these magnificant design blunders again and again. It of course is especially sad, when it happens to a top product, that one would otherwise consider to spend a small fortune on.

Quote:

On a side note, my axe to grind on this thread is with the silver-spray painted plastic.

I am fully aware.

Materials and design seemed related enough for me to contribute with some views in that direction, even though it was sidetracking a bit. Maybe another thread should be started if it hasnt allready been!

 

[davidhunternyc]

Quote:

Originally Posted by nakedhand /img/forum/go_quote.gif The talent is out there for sure. And it blows my mind that someone is not paying attention to what is happening in other areas of emerging industrial design.

This quote reminds me of the Ford 021C that was a design study in 1999. Ford gave the product designer, Marc Newson, free reign to design a "people's car" of his dreams, and he sure did. It might not be to everyone's taste (for instance, guys who love muscle cars will probably be put off by it) but it was revolutionary for its time. It was also to Ford's credit that they looked outside the world of automotive design to find a designer willing to rethink the automobile from the ground up. So the talent is certainly out there. I remember my college days at Art Center in Pasadena and I was amazed by the creativity of the designers in the automotive department. Do I ever see the results of their efforts on the road? No. I know what cars on the road were thought up by the designers at Art Center but by the time the cars arrived in the dealerships they were watered down contrivances of the original concepts. Unfortunately it is not the designers making the design decisions, it is the bean counters in charge, or if you have seen the H.B.O. series, "Entourage", they are referred to simply as, "suits". So what ever happened to the Ford 021C? Ford killed it.

 

[davidhunternyc]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gradofan2 /img/forum/go_quote.gif The market for $1,400 phones is not big - witness the fate of the Ed9... and... any number of other high-priced phones. Most were simply discontinued... though... they unit costs to produce them would have come way down, if they had simply reduced their prices, and sold millions more units at those lower prices with lower unit costs.

This is a really interesting thought. It is no secret how much I dislike the HD800 being made from silver-painted plastic, yet I see the advantages in using molded plastic in terms of costs and production. Leona plastic or otherwise, molded plastic is an inexpensive material. I am not convinced that the HD800 is a high production cost headphone despite Sennheiser's claim that they are, "Handmade in Germany." I believe Sennheiser could expedite production if necessary and when the demand falls off they could reduce the price considerably and create new demand. Because the cost per unit is low, Sennheiser would still be making a healthy profit. Whether or not the price will be lowered over time is an issue brought up on another thread, but I for one believe that this will happen. This would be impossible to do if the HD800 had a high unit cost. I think Sennheiser is covering all their bases with HD800 and keeping their risk low; quite prudent in this economy.

 

[Edwood]

Quote:

Originally Posted by davidhunternyc /img/forum/go_quote.gif This is a really interesting thought. It is no secret how much I dislike the HD800 being made from silver-painted plastic, yet I see the advantages in using molded plastic in terms of costs and production. Leona plastic or otherwise, molded plastic is an inexpensive material. I am not convinced that the HD800 is a high production cost headphone despite Sennheiser's claim that they are, "Handmade in Germany." I believe Sennheiser could expedite production if necessary and when the demand falls off they could reduce the price considerably and create new demand. Because the cost per unit is low, Sennheiser would still be making a healthy profit. Whether or not the price will be lowered over time is an issue brought up on another thread, but I for one believe that this will happen. This would be impossible to do if the HD800 had a high unit cost. I think Sennheiser is covering all their bases with HD800 and keeping their risk low; quite prudent in this economy.

If Sennheiser doesn't ramp up production and put out a lot more HD800's, it would be cheaper to make them out of metal.

-Ed

 

[Drumonron]

Some people take issue with the HD800 build material-

Making them out of metal does not necessarily make them sound better or fit better...sound, of course, being the more important aspect. I'm thinking of the W5000....MF of the headband comes to mind....didn't like it at all. No metal for me please...keep the production as slow as needed.

Metal does not = Excellence

 

[nor_spoon]

Quote:

Originally Posted by HeadphoneAddict /img/forum/go_quote.gif Do you know the plastic is painted, and not that coloring was added to the mix?

I was wondering about the same thing in the other thread. Or was it this one... I guess David should be able to answer this.