[greggf]

rds says,

"Don't worry so much about this stuff."


I'm a professional artist. This is exactly the kind of stuff I spend my life worrying about - how luxury items that high proles (that's from Paul Fussell's CLASS) have around their houses or hang on their walls (or on their heads!!) look or feel or strike one.

Somebody has to figure out how to market soap to clean people. Somebody has to figure out how to make toaster ovens play chess or my phone take pictures. I worry about aesthetics.

hunter is right - it ain't got nothin' to do with fashion. It encapsulates, well, an object's aura or soul.

Freddie Hubbard has soul. So does his trumpet, though. And so does the headphone I'm listening to Freddie Hubbard on. The way that headphone not only sounds but looks is an important part of the puzzle.

Did Roy Orbison's sunglasses help his singing voice? Nope. But that "look" sure helped his "sound."

The HD800 needs metaphorical sunglasses.

((BTW, I find Grados astonishingly simple and honest - very good design! And probably cheap as hell to manufacture.))

 

[JaZZ]

Quote:

Originally Posted by greggf /img/forum/go_quote.gif ...I find Grados astonishingly simple and honest - very good design! And probably cheap as hell to manufacture.)

It may be simple and «honest», but technically/acoustically it is a poor design -- calling for (tube) resonances and colorations. The typical 2.0-2.5 kHz (depending on the tube «length») hump is a consequence of it. Moreover they suffer from poor wearing comfort.
.

 

[greggf]

Re: Grados, or HD800, or any headphones -

The trick is to reconcile function, style, and comfort.

Jazz is probably correct about Grado shortcomings in terms of acoustics and comfort. The classic Grados have sort of the inverse problems of the upcoming Senns.

 

[arnaud]

Quote:

Originally Posted by greggf /img/forum/go_quote.gif Re: Grados, or HD800, or any headphones - The trick is to reconcile function, style, and comfort. Jazz is probably correct about Grado shortcomings in terms of acoustics and comfort. The classic Grados have sort of the inverse problems of the upcoming Senns.

I am biased because I actually fell for the style of the HD800 at once. I am also not neutral because my job is to be an acoustics engineer and not having to worry about the looks.

However, I think most people on head-fi will agree that we are much better off with the talented acoustic engineers at Sennheiser AND the strategy of the company (function before form) than with .... say ... modern day B&O where I have a very difficult time finding one design decision that was made to the profit of good sound rather than good looks.

As you said above, it's about "reconciling". Well, I may be too biased here, but you could rephrase that "it's about compromises". I am soooo glad Sennheiser did NOT compromise with acoustic performance of the headphone. For example cutting down on R&D effort in order to be able to sell a full metal frame HD800 rather than using plastic at the target price. Or using 60% of the R&D budget to make it look good rather to the expense of the guys trying to make it sound good.

I am sure also that most are glad that the price is NOT 2x1400, a la Qualia, where indeed they may have truly strived for a no compromise headphone, both performance wise and on the aesthetics front with a cost-no-object design goal. Interesting to note though that there really was some form of nasty echo in the mid-high frequencies which apparently required the right pair of ears and fit in order not to be felt (unfortunately, I heard it big time).

Finally, x10 on what Jazz had to say about the Grados. Those truly look like a reapoff if you match the look and feel to the price. I could not believe it when I got my SR-225, come on, I paid 250 bucks for this! It was a bit better with the RS-2 but that headband, seriously... As for the acoustics, yes indeed, I really could hear the resonances in the ear cup, but somehow this relates to good sound for some people. That's fine with me, to each his headphone! Welcome diversity.

 

[robm321]

Quote:

Originally Posted by greggf /img/forum/go_quote.gif robm321 says, "Who wears their headphones out in public to look good? No one I know - it's usually behind closed doors and no non audio enthusiast is going to be impressed by how good someones (sic) headphones look - speakers maybe, but headphones - are you serious?" I'm very serious. I don't wear my headphones out in public. Not to look good, not to look bad. Indeed, I wear them behind closed doors. Absolutely no one except my wife sees me wear them, and then not often. And yet the Sennheiser HD800's looks displease me. Me. They offend my aesthetic sensibilities. I do not like the way that they look. Putting them on will be off-putting, so to speak. I wish that they could have had better, cleaner styling. The way that they look makes me feel bad. They look like old Sonys, the SA5000. Since when is copying a loser, and an antiquated one at that, a good idea? Why are you talking "fashion" here, or about how other people might perceive them, or about "impressing"? The real issue is, for many of us, whether or not they have an artistic, classy design, as perceived by us, the wearers and end users, and us alone, in the privacy of our own rooms. Wearers of headphones are not androids devoid of feeling. We want something that both sounds good and looks good. For us. Alone. As sentient, complete packages, as whole human beings. BTW, I've pre-ordered the HD800 and look forward to the sound. I wish that I could look forward to looking at them and having them in my home, sound aside! ((It's at this point that people say that the HD800 "look better in person," which is like saying, "Yes, she's a dog, but she cooks well and has money and doesn't smell too bad up close." It's also at this point that people say that the HD800 probably look the way that they do because they "have to" in order to sound good, which I sincerely doubt, but is slightly more plausible, since you can't argue with an engineer. ))

My friend, this is such a great post. I wouldn't dare to argue with it

- I must say that having the HP-2, K-1000 and GS-1000, my sensibilities have already been abused to a point where I don't even know what looks good anymore.

 

[greggf]

 

[davidhunternyc]

Quote:

Originally Posted by greggf /img/forum/go_quote.gif I'm a professional artist. This is exactly the kind of stuff I spend my life worrying about - how luxury items that high proles (that's from Paul Fussell's CLASS) have around their houses or hang on their walls (or on their heads!!) look or feel or strike one. Somebody has to figure out how to market soap to clean people. Somebody has to figure out how to make toaster ovens, play chess, or my phone take pictures. I worry about aesthetics. Hunter is right - it ain't got nothin' to do with fashion. It encapsulates, well, an object's aura or soul. (BTW, I find Grados astonishingly simple and honest - very good design! And probably cheap as hell to manufacture.)

I guess artists think alike. I too am an artist and it is interesting but not surprising that we are in agreement. As I have posted elsewhere, I too find Grado headphones to be very efficient designs, especially the HP1000.

 

[powertoold]

If you think Grado has great design and sound, then why don't you buy the HP-2 in the FS forums. It's about the same price as the HD800. Then you can be satisfied, and you wouldn't be bumping this thread to the front page every day.

 

[wnmnkh]

Quote:

Originally Posted by greggf /img/forum/go_quote.gif rds says, "Don't worry so much about this stuff." I'm a professional artist. This is exactly the kind of stuff I spend my life worrying about - how luxury items that high proles (that's from Paul Fussell's CLASS) have around their houses or hang on their walls (or on their heads!!) look or feel or strike one. Somebody has to figure out how to market soap to clean people. Somebody has to figure out how to make toaster ovens play chess or my phone take pictures. I worry about aesthetics. hunter is right - it ain't got nothin' to do with fashion. It encapsulates, well, an object's aura or soul. Freddie Hubbard has soul. So does his trumpet, though. And so does the headphone I'm listening to Freddie Hubbard on. The way that headphone not only sounds but looks is an important part of the puzzle. Did Roy Orbison's sunglasses help his singing voice? Nope. But that "look" sure helped his "sound." The HD800 needs metaphorical sunglasses. ((BTW, I find Grados astonishingly simple and honest - very good design! And probably cheap as hell to manufacture.))

That's indeed reasonable.

By the way, I looked HD800 closely, and realized that the design principle is coming from HD5x5 series, not SA5000.

Look how earcups and headband connected, and compared them to HD595's. You will find there are a lot of similarity on design.

 

[Edwood]

Quote:

Originally Posted by davidhunternyc /img/forum/go_quote.gif I guess artists think alike. I too am an artist and it is interesting but not surprising that we are in agreement. As I have posted elsewhere, I too find Grado headphones to be very efficient designs, especially the HP1000.

I don't consider myself an artist. I am a designer. I find the HP1000's design to be extremely dated, and lacking in ergonomics / human factors. They look like ham radio operator headphones from the 1940's.

In the end, it's how it works and sounds. Something can only truly be called "art" when it serves no function other than to be in existence. I'd rather, my headphones not be considered true "art".

-Ed

 

[davidhunternyc]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edwood /img/forum/go_quote.gif I don't consider myself an artist. I am a designer. I find the HP1000's design to be extremely dated, and lacking in ergonomics / human factors. They look like ham radio operator headphones from the 1940's. In the end, it's how it works and sounds. Something can only truly be called "art" when it serves no function other than to be in existence. I'd rather, my headphones not be considered true "art". -Ed

I too have never considered headphones or any other industrial design object to be art. I believe that your definition of art is a serviceable one by the way.

 

[brandnewgame]

I prefer simplistic designs over complicated ones simply because of the wasted effort, though it doesn't influence my purchasing.

 

[rds]

Quote:

rds says, "Don't worry so much about this stuff." I'm a professional artist. This is exactly the kind of stuff I spend my life worrying about - how luxury items that high proles (that's from Paul Fussell's CLASS) have around their houses or hang on their walls (or on their heads!!) look or feel or strike one. Somebody has to figure out how to market soap to clean people. Somebody has to figure out how to make toaster ovens play chess or my phone take pictures. I worry about aesthetics. hunter is right - it ain't got nothin' to do with fashion. It encapsulates, well, an object's aura or soul. Freddie Hubbard has soul. So does his trumpet, though. And so does the headphone I'm listening to Freddie Hubbard on. The way that headphone not only sounds but looks is an important part of the puzzle. Did Roy Orbison's sunglasses help his singing voice? Nope. But that "look" sure helped his "sound." The HD800 needs metaphorical sunglasses. ((BTW, I find Grados astonishingly simple and honest - very good design! And probably cheap as hell to manufacture.))

Yeah, I agree with what you're saying.
What I mean is let Sennheiser make what they want and if it strikes you then buy it.
There's a lot of crap out there. Being an artist, imo, is about finding what works for you, not deciding what works for everyone (...I'm not insinuating that you're doing that).
I think most artists can agree that artistic democracy is not art at all.

 

[bhd812]

Quote:

Originally Posted by davidhunternyc /img/forum/go_quote.gif The HD800 reminds me of my father's very nice new BMW. Though a great performer, the interior of the BMW is just loaded with metallic looking plastic "accents" and it frustrates me to no end. Porsche does the same thing and so does Mercedes. It is just a sign of the times I guess. I still hate plastic. .

YOU COULD NOT HAVE PUT THIS BETTER!
In Cars its the first nag on my list i will pick out!
It's a sole reason why i never could stand the Vette of later years no matter how good the performance of the car is, get inside and all you have is cheap ass looking plastic! (the new vette is amazing but still tomuch plastic..)
Atleast the big three could wrap the plastic in the vinyl like material that the Germens use (BMW, Audi, Benz) to hide the plastic and make it feel more pliable and solid...but no most of the big three use just plastic..yuck!

One reason why Audi interiors are always a step above any one else in the price class, they use little plastic to be seen by the eye and if they do it's wrapped in vinyl material.

When the Z4 first came out it became my dream car of sorts but the one thing i could not stand about it was the huge painted silver plastic interior trim. i guess sometime later on since 2003 they changed it to real aluminum cause thats what my 2006 has. even mine still had these plastic painted steering wheel controls and spokes (which is why i replaced the Wheel with a black plastic wheel from a Z4M). this summer i am replacing the painted plastic door handles with Carbon Fiber and same thing with the metal silve trim, just to get rid of the painted plastics...yuck!!

sorry for such a off reply but what you said is so dead on about Cars! i remember when all american made cars had Vinyl in the interiors, remember the days before airbags and what not? those interiors felt and looked better anyday anytime then what we have now. i don't care if the vinyl will fade and crack over age cause it still feels better and looks to be more solid then plastic.

plastic is great and needed in todays cars, i agree with that but don't paint it silver! don't paint it shiny black! just leave the little pieces matte black and wrap the main pieces in Vinyl..so easy.

 

[John Willett]

I answered the plastic question HERE earlier today.

The plastic used is used for its acoustic properties and *not* for cheapness.