[hawat]

Quote:

Originally Posted by subtle /img/forum/go_quote.gif How do you not? So chrome colored plastic is cool with you but silver colored isn't?

its actually chrome colored aluminum according to their official announcement in japan.
But then build quality alone wont stop me from getting hd800 first though,cannot resist the hype machine.

 

[jinx20001]

i agree with david hear, they look terrible, not at all luxurious or sleek. got nout against plastic personally but the design team needs re-hiring.

 

[robm321]

Quote:

Originally Posted by nikongod /img/forum/go_quote.gif Senheiser had the HE-90, but has not had a dynamic that can look at the other DYNAMICS in ages. sorry, but no. They have made consistently nice and "safe" dynamic cans that are designed to sell all day long and sound good on a variety of systems, but no real statement dynamic.

Thank you for saying this. I'm sorry but no matter how many people want to say the HD650 belongs in the top tier, I just can't fathom that. They belong right where their price is at (street price that is). Even on the best setups with amps that cost ridiculous amounts, re cabled balanced, $$$$$, they are polite, laid back (boring for my taste) headphones. That being said, I am a fan and like them for what they are. Even the HE-90 bores me in the long run while technically being the best headphone I've heard. I would rather listen to the K-1000s.

I think this worries me. If the HD800 sounds similar to the HD650 but with a bigger sound stage which has been stated, then I don't think this headphone will be the best ever for my taste. Sound stage is not that important to me. It's nice, but frankly I close off the angle to a minimum (3/4" out) for my K-1000 drivers to get a better tonal balance and don't worry about giving up the sound stage. The bass is not something I miss with at all with the drivers angled like that. If I want sound stage, I'll listen to my speakers. What's an extra inch in sound stage, when speakers can produce life sized images in front of you. I'm all about SQ.

The only two qualities that seem to make the HD800 a possibility is the high frequency extension, neutral measurements (which are still not as neutral as the ruler flat measurements of the K-1000), and the speed that has been noticed by the few that have heard them. That's really where the promise lies with these.

Looks? Are you serious? Who the ... cares. Since when do people buy headphones to make a fassion statement... ?

 

[davidhunternyc]

Quote:

Originally Posted by subtle /img/forum/go_quote.gif How do you not? So chrome colored plastic is cool with you but silver colored isn't?

If the Edition 8's were made out of chrome over plastic, it would be just as grave to me as silver spray painted plastic. However, the Edition 8's are real metal from what has been reported.

 

[davidhunternyc]

Quote:

Originally Posted by robm321 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Looks? Are you serious? Who the ... cares. Since when do people buy headphones to make a fassion statement... ?

That's what the Big 3 automotive companies have been saying for years. Now look where they are. Part of being a designer is the ability to elicit passion and excitement from the consumer. It's not about being a fashion statement.

 

[robm321]

Quote:

Originally Posted by davidhunternyc /img/forum/go_quote.gif That's what the Big 3 automotive companies have been saying for years. Now look where they are. Part of being a designer is the ability to elicit passion and excitement from the consumer. It's not about being a fashion statement.

LOL - what kind of an argument is that? While I am in the minority and don't care about what car I drive. I am more the exception. You are comparing cars which some people think is their identity. Image is very important in cars where you only use in public and take people around in. Most shallow people judge a persons success and judge a person's status or popularity based on what their car looks like and what brand it is.

Who wears their headphones out in public to look good? No one I know - it's usually behind closed doors and no non audio enthusiast is going to be impressed by how good someones headphones look - speakers maybe, but headphones - are you serious?

 

[Shingetsu]

First I give you props davidhunternyc for sticking firm to your point (sorta) in the face of all these head fi'ers who are already infatuated with the 800s. I also agree that painting plastic silver is a very annoying trend.

second i feel that sennheiser could have gone with any other color and these head phones would look much better, because all they remind me of now is a pair of sonys.

 

[JazzJackRabbit]

The argument that plastic is better for headphones as opposed to metal because metal sings/vibrates/reverberates is a complete hogwash.

Yes, it's true that metal transmits vibrations better or sings, which is why tuning forks are made of aluminum instead of plastic.

However, when applied to headphones it does not mean anything. In order for metal to sing you have to make it sing by applying power to it, in case of headphones it is implied that this power is applied through sound waves formed by the driver. Problem is, the sound power from the driver is so miniscule that it will never ever make the metal sing. I've recently disassembled my HD-600 for driver cleaning and used pipete to blow air onto the driver to remove the hair. Even the smallest amount of air made the diaphragm move. Heck, I remember reading one person on head-fi actually damaged drivers by using canned air. By simple logic, if it takes so little air pressure to move the diaphragm to move, it emits about the same air pressure when it's working. Does anyone really believes that you can make metal cups on your headphone "sing" just by blowing air on them? That's ridiculous.

Weight is not an issue either. Aluminum is extremely lightweight.


BTW, I have DT770 2005 consumer edition, and the aluminum used in construction looks absolutely fabulous.

 

[wharfrat1]

I understand that we all have preferences in materials used to make a product, and how the product is designed to look.

I am going to go back to a point I made a few days ago. As stated by Sennheiser, all of the materials in the 800 was chosen for a reason. Most of these reasons for audio related. I am going to give the benefit of the doubt to the engineers that design headphones for a living. Especially those that work at probably the largest headphone company in the world. Add to that that they have spent years and lots of money on r & d for this headphone before they decided to bring it to the market.

There may be reasons why metal is great, etc., but unless you are a proven headphone design expert, like the engineers at Sennheiser, I'm going to say that they made the best possible choice for the materials that were used. According to the people that have heard it, sounds like a job well done.

I respect all of you for sticking to your points, and it is great that we have such a wonderful forum to debate these topics.

 

[arnaud]

Quote:

Originally Posted by JazzJackRabbit /img/forum/go_quote.gif The argument that plastic is better for headphones as opposed to metal because metal sings/vibrates/reverberates is a complete hogwash. Yes, it's true that metal transmits vibrations better or sings, which is why tuning forks are made of aluminum instead of plastic. However, when applied to headphones it does not mean anything. In order for metal to sing you have to make it sing by applying power to it, in case of headphones it is implied that this power is applied through sound waves formed by the driver. Problem is, the sound power from the driver is so miniscule that it will never ever make the metal sing. I've recently disassembled my HD-600 for driver cleaning and used pipete to blow air onto the driver to remove the hair. Even the smallest amount of air made the diaphragm move. Heck, I remember reading one person on head-fi actually damaged drivers by using canned air. By simple logic, if it takes so little air pressure to move the diaphragm to move, it emits about the same air pressure when it's working. Does anyone really believes that you can make metal cups on your headphone "sing" just by blowing air on them? That's ridiculous. Weight is not an issue either. Aluminum is extremely lightweight. BTW, I have DT770 2005 consumer edition, and the aluminum used in construction looks absolutely fabulous.

You got a point that the driver itself is moving / radiating much much more than the frame possibly could. But - no offense - I think you have quite a simplistic view of what vibration and acoustics is really about. Here, in order for the driver to move, it HAS to push against something. Well, this is the role of the magnet system and I think you agree with me it does not float in the air. Vibration WILL transmit into the frame, even if indeed it's in very little amount. An other thing that can happen is that the frame gets acoustically excited by the sound waves in the ear cup and then starts to ring (give back some energy by radiating into the ear cup).

Of course these two paths are way lower than the driver itself. But if you look at the transient response of the headphone, you will STILL hear/measure the effect of ringing in the frame.

Having said that, acoustic resonances in the ear cup are likely far more damaging to the response of the headphone, but here also Sennheiser appears to have made it quite acoustically transparent and properly damped (special foam, very fine mesh plate and other tricks I don't know about I am sure).

 

[JaZZ]

Quote:

Originally Posted by JazzJackRabbit /img/forum/go_quote.gif The argument that plastic is better for headphones as opposed to metal because metal sings/vibrates/reverberates is a complete hogwash. Yes, it's true that metal transmits vibrations better or sings, which is why tuning forks are made of aluminum instead of plastic. However, when applied to headphones it does not mean anything. In order for metal to sing you have to make it sing by applying power to it, in case of headphones it is implied that this power is applied through sound waves formed by the driver. Problem is, the sound power from the driver is so miniscule that it will never ever make the metal sing.

That's completely wrong. -- Compared to speakers, the vibrations caused by headphone drivers are indeed minuscule, but that's because you don't need much air vibration from such a small distance to the ears even for high listening levels. Correspondingly the ear also notices minuscule material resonances.

I guess you've never listened to Grados. The metal housings make for a distinct characteristic compared to the plastic brethren. The same goes for metal as membrane material in speaker drivers (where it can have some advantages, but calls for special filters).

I'm convinced that plastic is the acoustically more favourable material in many applications when it comes to headphones; its inner damping is higher by nature. Of course metal is more robust in cases where this property is needed. And don't forget the weight aspect: Plastic weighs clearly less. It's been said that the Qualia with its metal housing isn't heavier nonetheless. But I guess the HD 800's driver system with its large magnet is considerably heavier than a conventional headphone driver.

So I'm all for plastic if it serves the purpose best. For me headphones aren't objects of prestige nor design statements, but mere instruments for high-quality music listening -- if possible not too uncomfortable and just as expensive as necessary. In the case of a probable sonic milestone like the HD 800 to me the nitpicking this thread is dedicated to comes across as a little pettifogging.
.

 

[JazzJackRabbit]

Yes, diaphragm has to push against something, in this case against the magnet system, however the diaphragm itself probably weighs couple of grams at most (total guesstimate here). Such minuscule mass is not nearly enough to excite the metal housing into vibrating. A two gram diaphragm moving couple of millimeters at most against 260 gram headphones will not make it sing.

 

[JazzJackRabbit]

Quote:

Originally Posted by JaZZ /img/forum/go_quote.gif I guess you've never listened to Grados. The metal housings make for a distinct characteristic compared to the plastic brethren. The same goes for metal as membrane material in speaker drivers (where it can have some advantages, but calls for special filters).

No I haven't. But if you're right it should be easy to test. Just clamp the housing with your hands to dampen any possible vibrations and see if it changes the sound. Chances are it will not.

 

[davidhunternyc]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shingetsu /img/forum/go_quote.gif First I give you props davidhunternyc for sticking firm to your point (sorta) in the face of all these head fi'ers who are already infatuated with the 800s. I also agree that painting plastic silver is a very annoying trend. second i feel that sennheiser could have gone with any other color and these head phones would look much better, because all they remind me of now is a pair of sonys.

Thanks Shingetsu. As you know, there are many people in the world that are bona-fide "designers". That is there job. They sit down and think and make design decisions based on many different criteria. In some fields, it could mean the life and death of the company. I am convinced that Apple would not be where it is today without its design team, starting with Jonathan Ive. I feel like this is becoming more like flogging a dead horse at this point, but I'll say it again, silver spray painted plastic or even dyed sliver plastic is just cheap and cheesy, it is a mere "simulation" of the real thing. It is plastic trying to disguise as metal without any of the properties that metal has. If Sennheiser let the plastic be "true" to its material, I might not have a problem with it, though I have said it before, I hate plastic. There is a feeling to the material that is cheap to me and it doesn't look or feel good in the hand. There are differences between polyester and cotton, acrylic and oil paint. Under certain applications, synthetics are called for but I don't think this needs to be the case for a $1400 headphone.

 

[davidhunternyc]

Quote:

Originally Posted by JazzJackRabbit /img/forum/go_quote.gif The argument that plastic is better for headphones as opposed to metal because metal sings/vibrates/reverberates is a complete hogwash. Yes, it's true that metal transmits vibrations better or sings, which is why tuning forks are made of aluminum instead of plastic. However, when applied to headphones it does not mean anything. In order for metal to sing you have to make it sing by applying power to it, in case of headphones it is implied that this power is applied through sound waves formed by the driver. Problem is, the sound power from the driver is so miniscule that it will never ever make the metal sing. I've recently disassembled my HD-600 for driver cleaning and used pipete to blow air onto the driver to remove the hair. Even the smallest amount of air made the diaphragm move. Heck, I remember reading one person on head-fi actually damaged drivers by using canned air. By simple logic, if it takes so little air pressure to move the diaphragm to move, it emits about the same air pressure when it's working. Does anyone really believes that you can make metal cups on your headphone "sing" just by blowing air on them? That's ridiculous. Weight is not an issue either. Aluminum is extremely lightweight. BTW, I have DT770 2005 consumer edition, and the aluminum used in construction looks absolutely fabulous.

Kudos for your contribution here!
By the way everyone, if plastic were such a superior material for controlling "unwanted resonances" and necessary for state-of-the-art headphones, has somebody bothered to tell Ultrasone this? I guess Sony got it all wrong with the R10 as well.