[gimmeheadroom]

great mental image!

Objectively, some DAPs have adequate power output specs, and DC power from a battery is quite clean. More space in a desktop amp can lead to more ultimate potential, but you might be surprised what portables are capable of. Headphones from a portable... don’t knock it ‘till you’ve tried it!

I stand by what I said. A lot of times something could have enough power on paper but even a lot of those case are because you didn't read the specs closely enough or because of insufficient detail. A lot of devices will drive the 600 or 800 loudly enough and based on that the guy between the earpads could conclude everything is fine. But it's not. There is something about these cans that causes them to sound lifeless when they don't have enough, quality power. I have seen it with several DAPs (no, I don't claim to have experience with every DAP in the world but it remains irrelevant) and even some desktop gear. These headphones need a good amp and if you don't use them with one you are throwing your money away to look cool and that's why I wrote the analogy.

Is anyone running their HD800s out of speaker amp terminals or is that overkill for 300 Ohm headphones?

The impedance of the headphones is not even the major determinant of how difficult headphones are to drive. The key metric is the sensitivity (how loud does the headphone get at 1 mW for example). The Hifiman HE-6 needs a speaker amp even though it is rated at 50 ohms because the sensitivity is very low, around 84 dB/mW.

The best type of amp for 600/650/6XX and 800/800S is a healthy tube OTL amp. Big solid state amps will also do well.

TL;DR don't expect to drive serious money on headphones and run them off your DAP or laptop. It will seem to work, but you will still have no idea what they're capable of.

The 600 and 800 are so good that it's almost impossible to throw too much amp at them. And by that I mean clean power, not just off the back of a receiver.

 

[340519]

I stand by what I said. A lot of times something could have enough power on paper but even a lot of those case are because you didn't read the specs closely enough or because of insufficient detail. A lot of devices will drive the 600 or 800 loudly enough and based on that the guy between the earpads could conclude everything is fine. But it's not. There is something about these cans that causes them to sound lifeless when they don't have enough, quality power. I have seen it with several DAPs (no, I don't claim to have experience with every DAP in the world but it remains irrelevant) and even some desktop gear. These headphones need a good amp and if you don't use them with one you are throwing your money away to look cool and that's why I wrote the analogy.



The impedance of the headphones is not even the major determinant of how difficult headphones are to drive. The key metric is the sensitivity (how loud does the headphone get at 1 mW for example). The Hifiman HE-6 needs a speaker amp even though it is rated at 50 ohms because the sensitivity is very low, around 84 dB/mW.

The best type of amp for 600/650/6XX and 800/800S is a healthy tube OTL amp. Big solid state amps will also do well.

TL;DR don't expect to drive serious money on headphones and run them off your DAP or laptop. It will seem to work, but you will still have no idea what they're capable of.

The 600 and 800 are so good that it's almost impossible to throw too much amp at them. And by that I mean clean power, not just off the back of a receiver.

It's true, you need a good amp to drive them to their fullest.

 

[Evshrug]

I stand by what I said. A lot of times something could have enough power on paper but even a lot of those case are because you didn't read the specs closely enough or because of insufficient detail. A lot of devices will drive the 600 or 800 loudly enough and based on that the guy between the earpads could conclude everything is fine. But it's not. There is something about these cans that causes them to sound lifeless when they don't have enough, quality power. I have seen it with several DAPs (no, I don't claim to have experience with every DAP in the world but it remains irrelevant) and even some desktop gear. These headphones need a good amp and if you don't use them with one you are throwing your money away to look cool and that's why I wrote the analogy.



The impedance of the headphones is not even the major determinant of how difficult headphones are to drive. The key metric is the sensitivity (how loud does the headphone get at 1 mW for example). The Hifiman HE-6 needs a speaker amp even though it is rated at 50 ohms because the sensitivity is very low, around 84 dB/mW.

The best type of amp for 600/650/6XX and 800/800S is a healthy tube OTL amp. Big solid state amps will also do well.

TL;DR don't expect to drive serious money on headphones and run them off your DAP or laptop. It will seem to work, but you will still have no idea what they're capable of.

The 600 and 800 are so good that it's almost impossible to throw too much amp at them. And by that I mean clean power, not just off the back of a receiver.

I’m not saying a desktop Amp can’t ultimately have higher performance. My “reference” best setup right now is with my HDV 820, though I also have a Cavalli Liquid Carbon, a Fostex amp, and a SET tube hybrid. However, there is a point where an amp can send plenty of power with low distortion well past the comfortable/safe listening thresholds, and the amount of power on tap stops being a relevant factor, while THD and other factors that represent how clean the signal is amplified become the determinate of sound quality.

We’re well past the age of iPods now. High end DAPs have narrowed the gap in SQ significantly, and if you haven’t heard something like the balanced output of a KANN, WM1Z, Onkyo’s high end player, or another well-regarded high end player, you won’t know just how capable they really are. I’m not specifically endorsing it, but my FiiO X7 (yeah, the old Mark I version, with an AM2A SE medium power module) sounds quite lively and dynamic with my HD 650 (significant step up over my ZX300, which IMO is good with the HD 660S balanced but not powerful enough with my HD 800 or HD 650 and DOES sound unnatural and lifeless with those models, though it is quite detailed). Sure beats several entry-level desktop DAC/amps under $200 that I’ve tried in the past. It’s a nice option to have when I don’t want to listen at my desk, and maybe I want to listen in bed or on a vacation.

 

[gimmeheadroom]

I’m not saying a desktop Amp can’t ultimately have higher performance. My “reference” best setup right now is with my HDV 820, though I also have a Cavalli Liquid Carbon, a Fostex amp, and a SET tube hybrid. However, there is a point where an amp can send plenty of power with low distortion well past the comfortable/safe listening thresholds, and the amount of power on tap stops being a relevant factor, while THD and other factors that represent how clean the signal is amplified become the determinate of sound quality.

We’re well past the age of iPods now. High end DAPs have narrowed the gap in SQ significantly, and if you haven’t heard something like the balanced output of a KANN, WM1Z, Onkyo’s high end player, or another well-regarded high end player, you won’t know just how capable they really are. I’m not specifically endorsing it, but my FiiO X7 (yeah, the old Mark I version, with an AM2A SE medium power module) sounds quite lively and dynamic with my HD 650 (significant step up over my ZX300, which IMO is good with the HD 660S balanced but not powerful enough with my HD 800 or HD 650 and DOES sound unnatural and lifeless with those models, though it is quite detailed). Sure beats several entry-level desktop DAC/amps under $200 that I’ve tried in the past. It’s a nice option to have when I don’t want to listen at my desk, and maybe I want to listen in bed or on a vacation.

You are braver than I am. When I travel I'm using SE215s, I'm not not dragging big money over ear setups

 

[Evshrug]

You are braver than I am. When I travel I'm using SE215s, I'm not not dragging big money over ear setups

If it helps, I rarely put anything valuable in checked bags, and guard my backpack like my life depended on it
Peak Design Everyday Backpack and eBags Weekender, btw, both superb bags, totally off topic!

 

[bluenight]

It's true, you need a good amp to drive them to their fullest.

While that probably is true that they scale well and show there full potential with extreme HP amps. I was suprised how well my xiaomi mi 9 smartphone drove the HD800S to sufficient listening level when my oled tv panel broke down, It took like 2 months before i had the tv repaired so i lived with the mobile mostly for tv,movie whatching. Both with netflix whatching and tidal masters streaming. It was not earbleeding level but high enough volume and it sounded good enough imo maybe a bit flat and lifeless. I compared tidal streaming from smartphone vs my cxnv2 streamer-hugo 2 and it was not night and day imo. But yes its a more open fuller more depth and width sound with hugo2. Hugo2 as dac to Lake people RS02 let HD800S scale even further imo.

 

[gefski]

Thats what i hope the tonekraft cable i ordered will do, bring new life . The C3 universal cable is compelling. Its abit anoying all different HP makers use diffrent standard connection if there was an universal standard for HP connections that would be great when you have invested in an expensive HP cable.

About the sibilance it also depends on the rest of the equipment and cables in the uppstream chain. Hugo 2 can be pretty bright at times. Also there are many poor sibilalant recordings i hear. I also whatch alot of streamed movies and tv series that can be commpresed and bright/harsh when you turn up the volume. Not everything is bright it depends on the content. But to be able to lessen it would be great and at the same time add resolution and openness and details.

That’s a head scratcher for me - reduce the sibilance in poor recordings AND add resolution, openness, and details??

Poor recordings are what they are. The more transparent the gear, the more these flaws will be revealed.

 

[vlach]

I've tried it with a LuxmanA371 and also with a Nakamichi cassettedeck.
Both very dissaponting.
It works, no problem but the sq is bad, both. This was for me the reason to buy a headphone amp. Which I never realy believed in.

Thank you for your feedback. The reason i asked is because the SQ improvements using this option were significant (borderline dramatic) for my HE-500, but then we are talking planar magnetic and less sensitive headphones.

Maybe i should reframe the question; is anyone successfully driving the HD800 through amplifier speaker terminals?

 

[bluenight]

That’s a head scratcher for me - reduce the sibilance in poor recordings AND add resolution, openness, and details??

Poor recordings are what they are. The more transparent the gear, the more these flaws will be revealed.

There can be alot of complex frequency interactions of phase relations depending on all chemical material in an cable. Maybe some more better designed cables can combat sibilance while still adding resoulution openness and details. I have heard some cables from listening experience that did this.

I think many can agree that cardas clear does this.

This is just one aproach of many, an cable maker follows.
https://telluriumq.com/our-focus/
"When Tellurium Q® was set up the focus was primarily on the idea of phase distortion and minimising this problem inherent in all cabling, whoever makes them and wherever and however they are made. The reason it is a problem is simple, all materials (not just cables) in the path of a signal will act as an electronic filter according to the definition in the box below, whether you want it to or not. This is undeniable. It is obvious from research that there is an impact of the “naturalness” of vocals for instance.
We think about cables as a filter as outlined by its scientific definition and not necessarily as something being “filtered out”, like with a mechanical sieve. According to Bell labs way back in 1930 working on phase distortion and its impact on speech, they found that when comparing a system that had negligible phase distortion with one that had, “it is noticed that the distorted speech is accompanied by certain audible effects which appear to be extraneous to the speech and transient in character”.
This is the definition of an electronic filter:
“A filter is an electrical network that alters the amplitude and/or phase characteristics of a signal with respect to frequency. Ideally, a filter will not add new frequencies to the input signal, nor will it change the component frequencies of that signal, but it will change the relative amplitudes of the various frequency components and/or their phase relationships.”
Source: National Semiconductor Corporation
N.B. This is true of all speakers, amplifiers, DACs, CD players, cables etc…in fact anything in the signal path."

 

[treebug]

There can be alot of complex frequency interactions of phase relations depending on all chemical material in an cable. Maybe some more better designed cables can combat sibilance while still adding resoulution openness and details. I have heard some cables from listening experience that did this.

I think many can agree that cardas clear does this.

This is just one aproach of many, an cable maker follows.
https://telluriumq.com/our-focus/
"When Tellurium Q® was set up the focus was primarily on the idea of phase distortion and minimising this problem inherent in all cabling, whoever makes them and wherever and however they are made. The reason it is a problem is simple, all materials (not just cables) in the path of a signal will act as an electronic filter according to the definition in the box below, whether you want it to or not. This is undeniable. It is obvious from research that there is an impact of the “naturalness” of vocals for instance.
We think about cables as a filter as outlined by its scientific definition and not necessarily as something being “filtered out”, like with a mechanical sieve. According to Bell labs way back in 1930 working on phase distortion and its impact on speech, they found that when comparing a system that had negligible phase distortion with one that had, “it is noticed that the distorted speech is accompanied by certain audible effects which appear to be extraneous to the speech and transient in character”.
This is the definition of an electronic filter:
“A filter is an electrical network that alters the amplitude and/or phase characteristics of a signal with respect to frequency. Ideally, a filter will not add new frequencies to the input signal, nor will it change the component frequencies of that signal, but it will change the relative amplitudes of the various frequency components and/or their phase relationships.”
Source: National Semiconductor Corporation
N.B. This is true of all speakers, amplifiers, DACs, CD players, cables etc…in fact anything in the signal path."

I can vouch for Tellurium Q cable. I use TQ Black and Ultra Black II interconnects. Fab with my Luxman and Moon kit.

 

[bluenight]

I can vouch for Tellurium Q cable. I use TQ Black and Ultra Black interconnects. Fab with my Luxman and Moon kit.

I like there meticulous aproach. I have auditioned the ultra black 2 and silver diamond rca interconnects in my HP system. The ultra black 2 i thought had to little treble/energy information for my taste so it was very smooth. I thought it was nice sounding and very musical though. The silver diamond was one of the best cables iv ever heard in terms of musicality and listening joy but very expensive i settled with atlas mavros who i thought had a more clean sound but maybe not as engaging at half the price. There statement cable seem to be one of the best you can buy if you own statement gear and wins many hifi awards.

 

[Whazzzup]

audioquest fire a fantastic interconnect.
Sarum t digital super array usb.
dhc prion 4 hp cable for Hd800S all very good products.
they’ll cost you a entire system worth of cash but......

 

[340519]

tube amp to be exact! just kidding, but I preferred my pair on a tube amp.

Me too!

 

[Senndo]

I was wondering - for those who have heard a Susvara and a 800S--- which is cleaner sounding?

I find the susvara somewhat padded with a bit of haze- IMHO and am looking cleaner sound.

Also- is the 800S as full sounding as the Susvara or is it thinner sounding?????

From memory, I believe I found the 800S fuller sounding except when the Susvara was cranked up to ear-destroying levels (at which point it sounded fantastic but unbearably loud). I’m not sure how much value that opinion really holds though given it was a while back.

 

[Krutsch]

...

We’re well past the age of iPods now. High end DAPs have narrowed the gap in SQ significantly, and if you haven’t heard something like the balanced output of a KANN, WM1Z, Onkyo’s high end player, or another well-regarded high end player, you won’t know just how capable they really are.
...

Right on.

While I use a Woo WA3 at work to power-up my HD-660S, the WM1A by itself is an incredible source component. With Shure SE846s, it is some of the best audio I've ever experienced.