[csglinux]

An audio buddy of mine just pointed me to the following link. I'm not sure if it's been shared in this thread before. It's an interesting read:

https://www.reddit.com/r/headphones...d800_and_hd800s_with/?st=JHCPQT3D&sh=2d9187d6

 

[jude]

An audio buddy of mine just pointed me to the following link. I'm not sure if it's been shared in this thread before. It's an interesting read:

https://www.reddit.com/r/headphones...d800_and_hd800s_with/?st=JHCPQT3D&sh=2d9187d6

Yes, I was pointed to that thread this afternoon, too. I didn't have a lot of time for measurements, but looking at oratory1990's measurements and comments guided me to do the quickest relevant measurements I did have time for. I focused on his 20 Hz sine measurements run at 0.591 Vrms, as those (combined with the previous 40 Hz sine tests and sweeps we've covered before) largely cover the crux of this discussion.

Some things to consider:

• With the exception of HD800's serial numbers 00279 and 00342 and HD800S serial number 00205, every other HD800 and HD800S unit we measured is brand new, never worn by a human, only worn by our measurement fixtures, even to this day. The older ones are definitely very extensively used, but work and sound just fine, so those are the ones we listen to for our own personal use.
  
  
• We chose this route to remove as many variables as possible. That said, the oldest units (of both models) are interesting controls, as they have been in our possession from the start. We know, then, how these older units have been treated throughout their lifetimes and that they've never been modified. Again, they're obviously earlier, older units, which makes them interesting to measure for comparison's sake.
  
  
  • Let's start with oratory1990's FR curves posted on reddit earlier today. From the frequency response curves, the conclusion is reached that the HD800S has more measured sub-bass ( < 60 Hz) than the HD800 by a slight margin. Of course, I believe his measurements are accurate. However -- as even he stated -- unit-to-unit differences can matter, as perhaps can age and wear.
    
    
    • oratory1990's "Frequency spectrum of a 20 Hz sine signal" graphs are consistent with his frequency sweeps measurements, showing both predominant third-order harmonic distortion with the HD800, as well as higher output at the same voltage (at 20 Hz) from the HD800S.
      
      
  • If you look at the 20 Hz sine signal tests I did tonight (below) -- which I'll label more clearly later -- you can see that depending on which units you compare, again, the HD800 can show more sub-bass than the HD800S (and vice-versa). With both models, the older units (both of which still have all their original parts and pads) had more measured bass output than their brand new counterparts, perhaps due to age and/or wear (which I'll say more about below).
    
    
    • More specifically, if you compare HD800 (S/N 00342) and HD800S (S/N 13134, brand new), the HD800 reaches 98.113 dBSPL at 20 Hz from 591.0 mVrms, and the HD800S reaches 97.700 dBSPL from the same.
      
      
    • A posted comparison of Tyll's frequency sweeps of both also shows that the HD800 has flatter bass extension than the HD800S. Also, that comparison of Tyll's graphs seems to be normalized at a frequency intended to focus on the treble differences. If it was normalized at (for example) 200 Hz instead, then the HD800's bass would be a tick higher still.
      
      
      • Am I suggesting the HD800 has flatter, more extended bass than the HD800S? No, I'm saying that with the two units represented in that comparison in those sessions, that was Tyll's outcome -- which is different from oratory1990's outcome. Again, with our four new measurements from tonight, you can mix and match to show either model with higher output at 20 Hz.
        
        
    • Why do both of the older units have a touch more bass (at 20 Hz) than the brand new ones of the same model in our measurements? I can't say for sure, as I don't know with 100% certainty that there weren't any running changes made throughout the products' years of manufacture (though I do not know of any). That said, I think the most likely cause is earpad compression on the older units.
      
      
  • Here are the measured results from the plots below, again using a 20 Hz sine signal and voltage output set to 591 mVrms (to match oratory1990's output level for those same measurements):
    
    
    • Sennheiser HD800 S/N 00342 (old):
      • 20 Hz (signal) at 98.113 dBSPL
      • 40 Hz (H2) at 67.976 dBSPL
      • 60 Hz (H3) at 60.097 dBSPL
    • Sennheiser HD800 S/N 45957 (brand new):
      • 20 Hz (signal) at 96.481 dBSPL
      • 40 Hz (H2) at 74.788 dBSPL
      • 60 Hz (H3) at 53.731 dBSPL
        
        
    • Sennheiser HD800S S/N 00205 (old):
      • 20 Hz (signal) at 99.514 dBSPL
      • 40 Hz (H2) at 74.338 dBSPL
      • 60 Hz (H3) at 57.285 dBSPL
    • Sennheiser HD800 S/N 45957 (brand new):
      • 20 Hz (signal) at 97.700 dBSPL
      • 40 Hz (H2) at 71.921 dBSPL
      • 60 Hz (H3) at 51.219 dBSPL
        

(Again, I'll label the below graphs more clearly later.)

(Above) Sennheiser HD800 S/N 45957 (solid red line) and HD800 S/N 00342 (dotted blue line)

(Above) Sennheiser HD800S S/N 13134 (solid red line) and HD800 S/N 00205 (dotted blue line)

What are my conclusions?

• Neither our oldest nor our newest HD800 models show predominant third-order harmonic distortion, whether in previous sweeps, in the previous 40 Hz sine tests, or in tonight's 20 Hz sine tests at 0.591 Vrms.
  
  
• Our previous measurements of five brand new HD800's and two older ones do not show predominant third-order harmonic distortion either.
  
  
• Measurements conducted by others at the ALMA International conference on HD800 S/N 00342 (old) and HD800S S/N 13134 (brand new) also showed predominant second order (not predominant third order) harmonic distortion from the HD800, with both Brüel & Kjær's and Audio Precision's measurements set to a higher level (around 100 dBSPL at 40 Hz). We also conducted tests to 105 dBSPL at 40 Hz. It seems even at high levels (not just moderate levels) -- whether tested by us or others -- the results were the same.
  
  
• Depending on which units you mix and match, you may end up with more sub-bass (from either the HD800 or HD800S -- they're simply that close in measured levels down in the sub-bass range. Again, depending on how you pair the above four units from our tests tonight, you can show one higher than the other in either direction, as was also shown in comparing Tyll's and oratory1990's frequency response measurements of those models. (Tyll shows more sub-bass with the HD800, oratory1990 shows more sub-bass with the HD800S.)
  
  
• I think measuring brand new units does help remove many of the variables that can (and obviously do) occur. We know they've never been modded (or modded with an attempt to return to stock form), we know there's no wear and tear, etc.
  
  
• Am I saying that Tyll's measurements are wrong, or that oratory1990's measurements are wrong? No. While we obviously can not (and have not) measured every HD800 and HD800S out there, I am saying that our careful measurements of two older HD800's, one older HD800S, five brand new HD800's, and one brand new HD800S do not show predominant third-order harmonic distortion from the HD800's. Also, these measurements are consistent with Axel Grell's brief comments about this discussion at CanJam New York (when he stated in a discussion panel that higher H2 was not engineered into the HD800S (vis-a-vis the HD800)).

The measurements in this post were made with the following:

• GRAS 45CA Headphone Test Fixture with:
  • GRAS RA0401 High Resolution Ear Simulators
  • GRAS KB5010/KB5011 Anthropometric Pinnae for 45CA
• Audio Precision APx555 Audio Analyzer
• Audio Precision APx1701 Transducer Test Interface
• Herzan custom acoustic enclosure

 

[Audiofiend1]

new member of team HD800S reporting
Bought it from a fellow head-fier. Me, my beard and my glasses are not a big fan of the stock pads. Almost instantly ordered a pair of dekoni sheepskin pads. I removed the dustcover from the pads, keeping the Sennheiser's original dustcovers (partly because of looks). Over the next few days I'll A/B these with my headhpones that I use reguarly (T5p gen.2, Edition X v2, DT880) but for now I'm just enjoying these.

I have the same issue i cannot listen with my 800S whilst wearing glasses, i have to put contact lenses in every time i want to listen. Let us know how the dekoni pads treat you, i have been looking for a good pair of pads that will allow comfortable glasses listening. Also you removed the dust covers over the drivers or am i misunderstanding? Those are important for protection from dirt.

 

[FaezFarhan]

Would the Schiit Loki distort the bass / disturbs other frequencies?

 

[donlin]

I have the same issue i cannot listen with my 800S whilst wearing glasses, i have to put contact lenses in every time i want to listen. Let us know how the dekoni pads treat you, i have been looking for a good pair of pads that will allow comfortable glasses listening. Also you removed the dust covers over the drivers or am i misunderstanding? Those are important for protection from dirt.

Funny, one thing I’ve always appreciated about the 800/800S is that they are comfortable while wearing glasses. Everybody is different.

 

[smodtactical]

new member of team HD800S reporting
Bought it from a fellow head-fier. Me, my beard and my glasses are not a big fan of the stock pads. Almost instantly ordered a pair of dekoni sheepskin pads. I removed the dustcover from the pads, keeping the Sennheiser's original dustcovers (partly because of looks). Over the next few days I'll A/B these with my headhpones that I use reguarly (T5p gen.2, Edition X v2, DT880) but for now I'm just enjoying these.

The HD800S should comfortably destroy those 3 headphones... especially DT880.

 

[arielext]

I have the same issue i cannot listen with my 800S whilst wearing glasses, i have to put contact lenses in every time i want to listen. Let us know how the dekoni pads treat you, i have been looking for a good pair of pads that will allow comfortable glasses listening. Also you removed the dust covers over the drivers or am i misunderstanding? Those are important for protection from dirt.

Yesterday I listened for 3 hours strait with no issues whatsoever. I like the dekoni sheepskin pads; use those as well for my T5p's. The pads come with a 'built in' dustcover which I removed; not the Sennheiser one with the 'S' logo on it.

 

[arielext]

The HD800S should comfortably destroy those 3 headphones... especially DT880.

It's not about 'destroying' it's about preference and time
The T5p is obviously a closed back headphone which I use when my girlfriend starts to skype with her friends
Edition X v2 is planar; but might get the boot if it turns out that I'm not using them anymore
DT880s are good but already up for sale

 

[smodtactical]

It's not about 'destroying' it's about preference and time
The T5p is obviously a closed back headphone which I use when my girlfriend starts to skype with her friends
Edition X v2 is planar; but might get the boot if it turns out that I'm not using them anymore
DT880s are good but already up for sale

Of course everything is subjective in the audio world. But when I say destroy what I mean is the vast majority of head fiers who listen to the HD 800S and the headphones you listened would greatly favour the HD 800S. Its a TOTL headphone where the others aren't.

Its kind of like comparing Focal Utopia to say an HD 598. Obviously the comparison is subjective but the vast majority of people who listen will prefer the utopia. Or another way of putting it, if I had mid tier headphones like the DT880, DT990, HD 600, HE400i and then I go ahead and buy a Utopia... I can be reasonably confident my Utopia is going to sound better than all the other headphones I have. Its not a potentially contentious comparison like say a Focal Clear vs HD 800S which you can get lots of arguments one way or the other.

Of course there might be someone out there that like the HD 598 more than the Utopia, but they would be in the vast minority.

So that is what I mean by 'destroy'.

Oh and by the way just because some headphones are using a different technology or are closed or open doesn't mean you can't compare them with respect to listening experience. For example closed cans will obviously be less air and sound more confined with a tighter sound stage to a nice open headphone but I can still state which I enjoy more for a certain genre of music. For example and HD 800S is a better choice over a TH900 for classical whereas the reverse would be true for bass heavy EDM.

 

[pietcux]

Funny, one thing I’ve always appreciated about the 800/800S is that they are comfortable while wearing glasses. Everybody is different.

Same here.

 

[exdmd]

Would the Schiit Loki distort the bass / disturbs other frequencies?

No, you can switch the Loki in/out using the toggle switch to verify for yourself. With my rig I usually only boost the 20 Hz bass knob to 3 o'clock leave the other three at straight up detent.

 

[FaezFarhan]

No, you can switch the Loki in/out using the toggle switch to verify for yourself. With my rig I usually only boost the 20 Hz bass knob to 3 o'clock leave the other three at straight up detent.

How’s the result, satisfying?

 

[bobbyblack]

I also wear glasses, no problems at all,very comfortable.

 

[Me x3]

• • • Why do both of the older units have a touch more bass (at 20 Hz) than the brand new ones of the same model in our measurements? I can't say for sure, as I don't know with 100% certainty that there weren't any running changes made throughout the products' years of manufacture (though I do not know of any). That said, I think the most likely cause is earpad compression on the older units.

There's some reported evidence that the earpads on early HD800 are different from later models.
From my small research (mainly asking multiple HD800 users to measure their earpads) it seems that the change happened between s/n13xxx and s/n16xxx.

Newer pads are thicker all around, not necessarily deeper (the opening is smaller as a result). From some third party measurements I've seen, headphones with the early type of earpads have just a tiny bit more bass than those with the later ones and the treble peak is centered at 6.5kHz (early earpads) instead of 6kHz (late earpads).

Maybe you can shed some light on this matter.

This is a good place to measure (for reference):

Early earpads should measure 2 cm
Later earpads should measure 2.5 cm

Here's my former HD800 (s/n 22.xxx) which seems to have the 'newer' thicker type of earpad.
(2.5cm) at the reference spot. (and measured treble peak at 6kHz)

 

[exdmd]

How’s the result, satisfying?

Quite so. In my rig the HD800S are slightly bass shy without the Loki. With the Loki 20 Hz boost I feel no need to search for other phones. I can wear the HD800S all day long while working without any discomfort (and I wear glasses with no SQ problems.) I feel the Loki is one of Schiit's best products and at least for me the HD800S is my end game set of phones.