[FaezFarhan]

Quite so. In my rig the HD800S are slightly bass shy without the Loki. With the Loki 20 Hz boost I feel no need to search for other phones. I can wear the HD800S all day long while working without any discomfort (and I wear glasses with no SQ problems.) I feel the Loki is one of Schiit's best products and at least for me the HD800S is my end game set of phones.

Thank you so much. Ordered my HD800s and will definitely get the Loki soon after. Will tryout the headphone first.

 

[donlin]

Yes, please give it a serious listen before adding the EQ. It really isn’t needed.

 

[pietcux]

Yes, please give it a serious listen before adding the EQ. It really isn’t needed.

I received my HD800 balanced 4.4mm cable from ForzaAudioWorks today. Yes the bass is deep and there, but for some genres, I will try to eq the deepest bass to get from "there" to "slam". Btw, with this cable the Sony WM1A and the HD800SD are a stellar combo now.

 

[donlin]

I received my HD800 balanced 4.4mm cable from ForzaAudioWorks today. Yes the bass is deep and there, but for some genres, I will try to eq the deepest bass to get from "there" to "slam". Btw, with this cable the Sony WM1A and the HD800SD are a stellar combo now.

I’m sure the need to EQ has a lot to do with the type of music you listen to. My music just doesn’t need the slam.

 

[Rob80b]

Yes, I was pointed to that thread this afternoon, too. I didn't have a lot of time for measurements,
.......

What's important, measured or not is that the rumor of the 800S having "audible distorted" bass, which I've seen blown out of proportion and parroted too often gives a wrong impression of the "S"s performance relative to the 800 and should be quashed.

https://www.reddit.com/r/headphones...d800_and_hd800s_with/?st=JHCPQT3D&sh=2d9187d6
ColdDonut
"HD800 S | Bifrost MB | Valhalla 2 | JBL 590 | Emotiva A-5001 point·19 hours ago
So my question is in regards to the bass distortion. Is it noticeable at normal listen levels of around 75db"

"oratory1990
"acoustic engineer4 points·13 hours ago
No, it‘s far below the threshold of what we can hear at 75 dB."

A logical perspective prevails. : )

 

[csglinux]

Yes, I was pointed to that thread this afternoon, too. I didn't have a lot of time for measurements, but looking at oratory1990's measurements and comments guided me to do the quickest relevant measurements I did have time for. I focused on his 20 Hz sine measurements run at 0.591 Vrms, as those (combined with the previous 40 Hz sine tests and sweeps we've covered before) largely cover the crux of this discussion.

Some things to consider:

• With the exception of HD800's serial numbers 00279 and 00342 and HD800S serial number 00205, every other HD800 and HD800S unit we measured is brand new, never worn by a human, only worn by our measurement fixtures, even to this day. The older ones are definitely very extensively used, but work and sound just fine, so those are the ones we listen to for our own personal use.
  
  
• We chose this route to remove as many variables as possible. That said, the oldest units (of both models) are interesting controls, as they have been in our possession from the start. We know, then, how these older units have been treated throughout their lifetimes and that they've never been modified. Again, they're obviously earlier, older units, which makes them interesting to measure for comparison's sake.
  
  • Let's start with oratory1990's FR curves posted on reddit earlier today. From the frequency response curves, the conclusion is reached that the HD800S has more measured sub-bass ( < 60 Hz) than the HD800 by a slight margin. Of course, I believe his measurements are accurate. However -- as even he stated -- unit-to-unit differences can matter, as perhaps can age and wear.
    
    • oratory1990's "Frequency spectrum of a 20 Hz sine signal" graphs are consistent with his frequency sweeps measurements, showing both predominant third-order harmonic distortion with the HD800, as well as higher output at the same voltage (at 20 Hz) from the HD800S.
      
  • If you look at the 20 Hz sine signal tests I did tonight (below) -- which I'll label more clearly later -- you can see that depending on which units you compare, again, the HD800 can show more sub-bass than the HD800S (and vice-versa). With both models, the older units (both of which still have all their original parts and pads) had more measured bass output than their brand new counterparts, perhaps due to age and/or wear (which I'll say more about below).
    
    • More specifically, if you compare HD800 (S/N 00342) and HD800S (S/N 13134, brand new), the HD800 reaches 98.113 dBSPL at 20 Hz from 591.0 mVrms, and the HD800S reaches 97.700 dBSPL from the same.
      
      
    • A posted comparison of Tyll's frequency sweeps of both also shows that the HD800 has flatter bass extension than the HD800S. Also, that comparison of Tyll's graphs seems to be normalized at a frequency intended to focus on the treble differences. If it was normalized at (for example) 200 Hz instead, then the HD800's bass would be a tick higher still.
      
      • Am I suggesting the HD800 has flatter, more extended bass than the HD800S? No, I'm saying that with the two units represented in that comparison in those sessions, that was Tyll's outcome -- which is different from oratory1990's outcome. Again, with our four new measurements from tonight, you can mix and match to show either model with higher output at 20 Hz.
        
    • Why do both of the older units have a touch more bass (at 20 Hz) than the brand new ones of the same model in our measurements? I can't say for sure, as I don't know with 100% certainty that there weren't any running changes made throughout the products' years of manufacture (though I do not know of any). That said, I think the most likely cause is earpad compression on the older units.
      
  • Here are the measured results from the plots below, again using a 20 Hz sine signal and voltage output set to 591 mVrms (to match oratory1990's output level for those same measurements):
    
    • Sennheiser HD800 S/N 00342 (old):
      • 20 Hz (signal) at 98.113 dBSPL
      • 40 Hz (H2) at 67.976 dBSPL
      • 60 Hz (H3) at 60.097 dBSPL
    • Sennheiser HD800 S/N 45957 (brand new):
      • 20 Hz (signal) at 96.481 dBSPL
      • 40 Hz (H2) at 74.788 dBSPL
      • 60 Hz (H3) at 53.731 dBSPL
        
    • Sennheiser HD800S S/N 00205 (old):
      • 20 Hz (signal) at 99.514 dBSPL
      • 40 Hz (H2) at 74.338 dBSPL
      • 60 Hz (H3) at 57.285 dBSPL
    • Sennheiser HD800 S/N 45957 (brand new):
      • 20 Hz (signal) at 97.700 dBSPL
      • 40 Hz (H2) at 71.921 dBSPL
      • 60 Hz (H3) at 51.219 dBSPL

(Again, I'll label the below graphs more clearly later.)


(Above) Sennheiser HD800 S/N 45957 (solid red line) and HD800 S/N 00342 (dotted blue line)


(Above) Sennheiser HD800S S/N 13134 (solid red line) and HD800 S/N 00205 (dotted blue line)

What are my conclusions?

• Neither our oldest nor our newest HD800 models show predominant third-order harmonic distortion, whether in previous sweeps, in the previous 40 Hz sine tests, or in tonight's 20 Hz sine tests at 0.591 Vrms.
  
  
• Our previous measurements of five brand new HD800's and two older ones do not show predominant third-order harmonic distortion either.
  
  
• Measurements conducted by others at the ALMA International conference on HD800 S/N 00342 (old) and HD800S S/N 13134 (brand new) also showed predominant second order (not predominant third order) harmonic distortion from the HD800, with both Brüel & Kjær's and Audio Precision's measurements set to a higher level (around 100 dBSPL at 40 Hz). We also conducted tests to 105 dBSPL at 40 Hz. It seems even at high levels (not just moderate levels) -- whether tested by us or others -- the results were the same.
  
  
• Depending on which units you mix and match, you may end up with more sub-bass (from either the HD800 or HD800S -- they're simply that close in measured levels down in the sub-bass range. Again, depending on how you pair the above four units from our tests tonight, you can show one higher than the other in either direction, as was also shown in comparing Tyll's and oratory1990's frequency response measurements of those models. (Tyll shows more sub-bass with the HD800, oratory1990 shows more sub-bass with the HD800S.)
  
  
• I think measuring brand new units does help remove many of the variables that can (and obviously do) occur. We know they've never been modded (or modded with an attempt to return to stock form), we know there's no wear and tear, etc.
  
  
• Am I saying that Tyll's measurements are wrong, or that oratory1990's measurements are wrong? No. While we obviously can not (and have not) measured every HD800 and HD800S out there, I am saying that our careful measurements of two older HD800's, one older HD800S, five brand new HD800's, and one brand new HD800S do not show predominant third-order harmonic distortion from the HD800's. Also, these measurements are consistent with Axel Grell's brief comments about this discussion at CanJam New York (when he stated in a discussion panel that higher H2 was not engineered into the HD800S (vis-a-vis the HD800)).

The measurements in this post were made with the following:

• GRAS 45CA Headphone Test Fixture with:
  • GRAS RA0401 High Resolution Ear Simulators
  • GRAS KB5010/KB5011 Anthropometric Pinnae for 45CA
• Audio Precision APx555 Audio Analyzer
• Audio Precision APx1701 Transducer Test Interface
• Herzan custom acoustic enclosure

Thanks for the very elaborate reply and sorry for ruining what could otherwise have been a perfectly good Friday evening

The interesting point for me is how (& if) the low-end was boosted, since, as has been mentioned before, Sennheiser made no conscious attempts at modifications in that regard. The following is just wild conjecture....

If we measured enough (old and new) HD800 and HD800S and still found a statistically meaningful variation, I'm wondering about the damping resonator. There may be tiny asymmetries in the way the device is mounted, and if the resonator isn't 100% efficient, with the exact same driving Vrms, conservation of energy would mean the amplitude lost around 6 kHz has to end up somewhere else. @Me x3's post about the possible change in pads could be relevant. FYI, my S/N 10xxx model does indeed have ~2 cm wide pads.

Either way, this is a cautionary tale for those of us (myself included) measuring one pair of headphones and thinking we've nailed it by simply averaging the L and R responses. I'm afraid I rarely have the luxury of access to multiple pairs of the same model.

 

[exdmd]

Yes, please give it a serious listen before adding the EQ. It really isn’t needed.

Low bass (20 Hz) is about 3.5 dB down for the HD800S. This is well documented and though bass is extended many reviewers and owners feel the need for more punch from 20 Hz to 60 Hz. The Loki can achieve this without disturbing the midrange. This is precisely why I bought a Loki. In my rig it transformed my phones from excellent to top shelf. No one has to buy a Loki, it is a personal choice and if you do not like it you can return it or sell as they are in high demand, sometimes out of stock. You may feel analog EQ is not needed for the HD800S; others including myself find it quite useful. Not only for a slight bass boost but to help make some recordings more enjoyable to listen to.

 

[donlin]

Low bass (20 Hz) is about 3.5 dB down for the HD800S. This is well documented and though bass is extended many reviewers and owners feel the need for more punch from 20 Hz to 60 Hz. The Loki can achieve this without disturbing the midrange. This is precisely why I bought a Loki. In my rig it transformed my phones from excellent to top shelf. No one has to buy a Loki, it is a personal choice and if you do not like it you can return it or sell as they are in high demand, sometimes out of stock. You may feel analog EQ is not needed for the HD800S; others including myself find it quite useful. Not only for a slight bass boost but to help make some recordings more enjoyable to listen to.

Absolutely, I never said not to buy one, just to give a good listen first. As an audiophile old timer, the idea of running the signal through another set of interconnects and an extra box seems counterproductive but I know that’s a very old fashioned idea.

 

[SP Wild]

Was quite interesting seeing Jude's measurement of the HD800S bass.

I never heard any flabby bass coming from my HD800S and figured my aging ears just can't pickup the extra bass distortion that was supposedly present in the HD800S and not in the HD800.

All I could workout was that the HD800S bass and the LCD2 ver 1 bass are both at the high end level of tight...like a figure skaters butt. I don't think you could buy speakers with bass this tight.

 

[ZappaMan]

Could I get some thoughts on this plz.

I have mojo and Hd800s. I listen at the green-green volume level. It feels a bit loud sometimes, but at the same time, I think the headphones need this level of volume to really hear the snare hits well, to pick out the fun detail I suppose.

What volume levels are other mojo owners listening at?

Is there something to do with voltage or something that means you need to turn the volume up to get a really good session out of the headphones?

If I had a hugo 2, would that then mean I could listen at a lesser volume ?

 

[Whazzzup]

Impedance of hp plays a factor. Voltage or delivery can effect scale within cans that are scaleable. Generally and not exclusive to higher impedance hp. Then there is the source and dac which of course effects delivery and conversion. This can effect the quality and type of sound wave you hear. So in the end hd800S can sound fine by either mojo, Hugo , tt or Dave. Balanced out through an amp or direct se.
so volume level can do so much for scaleability of hd800S and how it sounds which is perspective on preference depends on source and conversion. I preferred hd800S on TT via gsx mk2 than Hugo 1 or 2 but that’s me. Maybe mojo is fine for others

 

[ZappaMan]

Impedance of hp plays a factor. Voltage or delivery can effect scale within cans that are scaleable. Generally and not exclusive to higher impedance hp. Then there is the source and dac which of course effects delivery and conversion. This can effect the quality and type of sound wave you hear. So in the end hd800S can sound fine by either mojo, Hugo , tt or Dave. Balanced out through an amp or direct se.
so volume level can do so much for scaleability of hd800S and how it sounds which is perspective on preference depends on source and conversion. I preferred hd800S on TT via gsx mk2 than Hugo 1 or 2 but that’s me. Maybe mojo is fine for others

Is the tt providing it with different voltage then the hugo 2, or any idea why it sounded better?

 

[Whazzzup]

There are many factors from uniblock design, supercapacitors and beefy psu, superior analogue components etc... pulse arrays and taps are a factor but tt provides better weight, darker sig, more distinct mids than hugo. But what would one expect comparing a portable to a desktop...

 

[joseph69]

My music just doesn’t need the slam.

More than 90% of my listening is Smooth/Contemporary/Lounge/Chill Jazz and although I enjoyed the HD-800, I found percussion instruments (drums) to be lacking in impact.
Too me the impact was just too soft for my liking and I found myself not reaching for them anymore due to this which is the only reason I no longer own them. Otherwise they're an excellent sounding headphone, just not authoritive enough in this department for me.

 

[smodtactical]

Quite so. In my rig the HD800S are slightly bass shy without the Loki. With the Loki 20 Hz boost I feel no need to search for other phones. I can wear the HD800S all day long while working without any discomfort (and I wear glasses with no SQ problems.) I feel the Loki is one of Schiit's best products and at least for me the HD800S is my end game set of phones.

I think I might go for the Loki as well and try it with my 800S and bass boost it.