Sennheiser HD800 S Impressions Thread (read first post for summary)
Sep 23, 2017 at 7:56 AM Post #2,506 of 8,689
You are right they are different things. But the HD800S treble doesn’t sound rolled off when compared to HD650’s treble either to my ears.

Do you have the older HD 650 or the latest version?

The version I have doesn’t make the HD 800 S sound veiled, since that is what the Utopia does. But I do hear something missing on the HD 800 S even against the HD 650.

So that is why I am not surpised of the result of his calibrated HD 800 S by Sonarworks.
 
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Sep 23, 2017 at 8:01 AM Post #2,507 of 8,689
Do you have the older HD 650 or the latest version?
I had the latest version. I bought them in March of this year.
 
Sep 23, 2017 at 11:26 AM Post #2,508 of 8,689
Do you have the older HD 650 or the latest version?

The version I have doesn’t make the HD 800 S sound veiled, since that is what the Utopia does. But I do hear something missing on the HD 800 S even against the HD 650.

So that is why I am not surpised of the result of his calibrated HD 800 S by Sonarworks.
I think this extension of highs is the result of small soundstages of these headphones... When i eq HD800S to have more forward signature it always appear to have better extension in upper frequencies. Same thing i heard in dacs and amps. Its all physics. With a speakers you can have forward sound with big soundstage. On heaphonees with big soundstages you get less centre part of mids and overall extension of highs appears worse. HD800S extension goes well till centre part of mids then go down till upper mids and from there it goes up again. Utopias Extension on the other hand just never stops for a second thats why it feels better extended.
 
Sep 23, 2017 at 11:45 AM Post #2,509 of 8,689
A quick follow-up to a recent post I made in regard to comparisons of HD800S and Utopia...

I guess I owe the Utopia an apology. On a more extensive listen using QP1R->toslink->Chord Dave, I now understand why people like/prefer the Utopia. I don't hear it on all tracks, but certainly on more than 50% I'd have a clear preference for the Utopia. It's cleaner and just has something more realistic and engaging about its tonality. HD800S is good too - very smooth sounding, but by comparison, the HD800S can sometimes sound like certain details are a little smoothed over. Soundstage is narrower on the Utopia, but I really don't care about that. I prefer the weight, comfort and fit of the HD800S. Also, without more critical listening tests, it's not yet clear to me how much of those sound-quality differences I'm going to hear with my own sources. I dont own a Dave. I have a Hugo 2, but have not yet done any serious A/B with that. Differences when driving both headphones directly from an SP1000 or QP1R aren't as significant. Any Utopia, HD800S, Dave and H2 owners out there - will a Hugo 2 do the job, or do I really need to sell my other kidney and buy a Dave to fully appreciate all nuances? :wink:

As for that upper-treble thingy... I'm not so sure about the HD800S and its treble rolling off too early. (Even if that were true - one person's nicely extended treble is another person's overly-bright and zingy ear fatigue.) I also posted some Innerfidelity plots of HD800S and Utopia a few pages back. The Utopia has lower THD+N, but I don't see (or hear) vast differences up there in the treble. Differences look to be close enough to be within measuring tolerances. One obvious difficulty in A/B tests is that however you match the SPLs (dB at 1 kHz or OASPL, etc.), if the two headphones have valleys and peaks at slightly different frequencies, any given test track might have an audible bump in a particular area, which will make that particular feature more apparent on that particular headphone. Even though, on balance, I prefer the sound of the Utopia, I found test tracks where I prefer the HD800S (which was what prompted my original post).

Another concern I have with the Utopia is about the use of Beryllium. Focal proudly announce this fact in silver lettering on the side of the Utopias. Hmmm. Past discussions in the Utopia thread have gone something like this:

Poster #1) I'm worried about the use of Be.

Poster #2) Please remove your tin-foil hat and take your conspiracy theories elsewhere. If it were dangerous, Focal would have told us. Stop posting messages like that on this thread, etc, etc.

I don't own a tin foil hat. (I liked the Utopia enough to buy one.) However, I doubt there's zero risk here. The driver in the Utopia isn't an alloy - it's pure Beryllium - one of the most toxic and dangerous substances known to man. The only thing separating it from you is a thin layer of beryllium oxide that naturally forms on the surface when it reacts with the air. Sure, you likely have Be in other consumer electronic devices too, but there it will be in tiny amounts, in a passive component that's sealed away where you'd never see it or have contact with it or breathe it. Be drivers in headphones are a bit different - these things will undergo some serious excursions in their lifetimes - constantly being flexed. And what if you (or a previous owner) dropped it? Any tiny particles that might be shaken loose from the driver are immediately exposed to the air, just centimeters from your nose and mouth. Almost 1 in 2 of you reading this are going to be diagnosed with cancer during your lifetime. We don't know what proportion of those failed DNA replications are caused be external influences, and often it takes us decades to make those correlations (e.g., smoking, asbestos). Have we always been able to rely on manufacturers to truthfully reassure us these products were safe? That wasn't the case with tobacco. How about man-made global warming? There's still apparently no consensus amongst the (US) public, despite ~97% of climate scientists agreeing that it's a fact. People are willing to believe whatever is convenient, financially expedient or most comforting for them. We probably won't know the truth about Be drivers for many years. Perhaps (and hopefully) the risk is small (although the overall risk to Focal workers and the environment probably isn't). Either way, I wouldn't be surprised to see Be drivers eventually disappear - especially once newer graphene-based drivers arrive.
 
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Sep 23, 2017 at 12:19 PM Post #2,510 of 8,689
A quick follow-up to a recent post I made in regard to comparisons of HD800S and Utopia...

I guess I owe the Utopia an apology. On a more extensive listen using QP1R->toslink->Chord Dave, I now understand why people like/prefer the Utopia. I don't hear it on all tracks, but certainly on more than 50% I'd have a clear preference for the Utopia. It's cleaner and just has something more realistic and engaging about its tonality. HD800S is good too - very smooth sounding, but by comparison, the HD800S can sometimes sound like certain details are a little smoothed over. Soundstage is narrower on the Utopia, but I really don't care about that. I prefer the weight, comfort and fit of the HD800S. Also, without more critical listening tests, it's not yet clear to me how much of those sound-quality differences I'm going to hear with my own sources. I dont own a Dave. I have a Hugo 2, but have not yet done any serous A/B with that. Differences when driving both headphones directly from an SP1000 or QP1R aren't as significant. Any Utopia, HD800S, Dave and H2 owners out there - will a Hugo 2 do the job, or do I really need to sell my other kidney and buy a Dave to fully appreciate all nuances? :wink:

As for that upper-treble thingy... I'm not so sure about the HD800S and its treble rolling off too early. (Even if that were true - one person's nicely extended treble is another person's overly-bright and zingy ear fatigue.) I also posted some Innerfidelity plots of HD800S and Utopia a few pages back. The Utopia has lower THD+N, but I don't see (or hear) vast differences up there in the treble. Differences look to be close enough to be within measuring tolerances. One obvious difficulty in A/B tests is that however you match the SPLs (dB at 1 kHz or OASPL, etc.), if the two headphones have valleys and peaks at slightly different frequencies, any given test track might have an audible bump in a particular area, which will make that particular feature more apparent on that particular headphone. Even though, on balance, I prefer the sound of the Utopia, I found test tracks where I prefer the HD800S (which was what prompted my original post).

Another concern I have with the Utopia is about the use of Beryllium. Focal proudly announce this fact in silver lettering on the side of the Utopias. Hmmm. Past discussions in the Utopia thread have gone something like this:

Poster #1) I'm worried about the use of Be.

Poster #2) Please remove your tin-foil hat and take your conspiracy theories elsewhere. If it were dangerous, Focal would have told us. Stop posting messages like that on this thread, etc, etc.

I don't own a tin foil hat. (I liked the Utopia enough to buy one.) However, I doubt there's zero risk here. The driver in the Utopia isn't an alloy - it's pure Beryllium - one of the most toxic and dangerous substances known to man. The only thing separating it from you is a thin layer of beryllium oxide than naturally forms on the surface when it reacts with the air. Sure, you likely have Be in other consumer electronic devices too, but there it will be in tiny amounts, in a passive component that's sealed away where you'd never see it or have contact with it or breathe it. Be drivers in headphones are a bit different - these things will undergo some serious excursions in their lifetimes - constantly being flexed. And what if you (or a previous owner) dropped it? Any tiny particles that might be shaken loose from the driver are immediately exposed to the air, just centimeters from your nose and mouth. Almost 1 in 2 of you reading this are going to be diagnosed with cancer during your lifetime. We don't know what proportion of those failed DNA replications are caused be external influences, and often it takes us decades to make those correlations (e.g., smoking, asbestos). Have we always been able to rely on manufacturers to truthfully reassure us these products were safe? That wasn't the case with tobacco. How about man-made global warming? There's still apparently no consensus amongst the (US) public, despite ~97% of climate scientists agreeing that it's a fact. People are willing to believe whatever is convenient, financially expedient or most comforting for them. We probably won't know the truth about Be drivers for many years. Perhaps (and hopefully) the risk is small (although the overall risk to Focal workers and the environment probably isn't). Either way, I wouldn't be surprised to see Be drivers eventually disappear - especially once newer graphene-based drivers arrive.

All I’m saying is this. Look how much the Utopia costs and look how much the 800S costs. But in order to call the Utopia better, one has to EXTENSIVELY a & b, scour the depths of music purgatory, brush aside the concept of soundstage, and ignore the possibility of brain cancer.

In my opinion, that just shows that the 800S is simply the better buy. And they’re awesome to boot.

Sorry not sorry 800S>Utopia
 
Sep 23, 2017 at 12:27 PM Post #2,511 of 8,689
All I’m saying is this. Look how much the Utopia costs and look how much the 800S costs. But in order to call the Utopia better, one has to EXTENSIVELY a & b, scour the depths of music purgatory, brush aside the concept of soundstage, and ignore the possibility of brain cancer.

In my opinion, that just shows that the 800S is simply the better buy. And they’re awesome to boot.

Sorry not sorry 800S>Utopia

I pretty much agree with all of that. Just one correction - it would most likely be lung cancer.
 
Sep 23, 2017 at 12:32 PM Post #2,513 of 8,689
"But in order to call the Utopia better, one has to EXTENSIVELY a & b, scour the depths of music purgatory, brush aside the concept of soundstage, and ignore the possibility of brain cancer."
I'm not a fan of the Utopia, but it comes down to personal preference, like anything else. I own the 800S, but I just recently purchased it and really haven't spent enough time with it to say it's a keeper, but I do like what I've heard so far. :)
 
Sep 23, 2017 at 12:38 PM Post #2,515 of 8,689
I'm not a fan of the Utopia, but it comes down to personal preference, like anything else. I own the 800S, but I just recently purchased it and really haven't spent enough time with it to say it's a keeper, but I do like what I've heard so far. :)

It definitely always comes down to preference. I was being a little tongue in cheek, but the 800S is simply a fantastic headphone. And I honestly do prefer it to the Utopia. I’m not really saying the Utopia is bad, I just think it’s way overpriced.
 
Sep 23, 2017 at 2:49 PM Post #2,518 of 8,689
The HD 650 is a darker headphone. But that is not what I was talking about. Treble extension and being a bright / dark headphone are different things.

Explain?
IMHO the 650 is a darker headphones because of the reduced treble....I believe the general consensus is that a flat measured result from a headphone, unlike speakers does not equate into a flat sounding headphone.
 
Sep 23, 2017 at 4:25 PM Post #2,519 of 8,689
Explain?
IMHO the 650 is a darker headphones because of the reduced treble....I believe the general consensus is that a flat measured result from a headphone, unlike speakers does not equate into a flat sounding headphone.
The HD650's didn't have the upper end sparkle of the HD800S's nor the HD800's for that matter. I also found them to be to laid back for my taste.
 
Sep 23, 2017 at 11:37 PM Post #2,520 of 8,689
Here's the HD800 vs HD650, and we already know that the modifications to the HD800S centered around lowering the 6 kHz spike and increasing the mid-bass response

Its pretty clear which has the greater upper treble

For the record, Innerfidelity's graphs (this time with the HD800S) they show the same thing - when looking at these pay close attention to the raw data.

My units FR look quite different then those. My 800s is much brighter and has less bass and vocal presence then my 650. After calibration to flat (within .9db) the 800s bass sounds flabby and artificial and the highs sound slightly metallic I am guessing due to the fact the correction required to make the 800s flat is much greater in both bass gain and highs attenuation. The 650 is a far flatter can with more natural sound across the entire spectrum to my ears. Purple line is post correction for the 800s. post correction for the 650 actually extends easily 10hz lower then the 800s.

Sennheiser HD-650.png
Sennheiser HD-800s.png
 

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