[Beagle]

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Willett /img/forum/go_quote.gif The HD 800 are revealing headphones - you may very likely find that this is more of a recording thing and the choice of microphone and voice, rather than the headphones - the headphones just showing what has been recorded on the CD.

Best thing to do is to listen to something that is "known" to be a good recording (i.e. one that sounds excellent and non-problematic through good loudspeakers). Or a compilation CD where every track is a different recording. Take the disc to a high-end shop and ask to hear some great speakers. If it also sounds excellent (non-sibilant) through the headphones, there's no problem with the headphones (assuming amplification is up to scratch).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skylab /img/forum/go_quote.gif I have begun to wonder about this, but this is very difficult to accurately assess. How is one to know if the HD800 is just being accurate about the recording, or over-emphasizing it? My reference for this, I have decided, in addition to other headphones, will need to be my speakers - which are the very, very natural sounding but highly detailed B&W Nautilus 800 Signatures. If the sibilants are more emphasized on the HD800's than on the B&W's, then this will point to the headphones, not the recordings, being at issue.

Please let us know of your findings with the comparison. Those are excellent loudspeakers.

 

[Skylab]

OK, for all you HD800 owners, here is a test track for you - "Burn Down This Town", by Roseanne Cash, from Black Cadillac. The HD800 are over-emphasizing the sibilants on this recording, on my 70 hour pair and in my current test system (SP Extreme/Denon CDR-W1500).

I'd like others who have the time and inclination, and who have the HD800 *and* another very high quality pair of headphones or speakers, and who happen to own this excellent CD, to give it a listen and comment, if possible.

BTW, it isn't just vocal sibilants that are at issue. Cymbals are also hotter than is natural, IMO - it's a question/issue regarding the treble in general.

And again, so no one gets ruffled feathers - this is all in the context of a $1,400 headphone, which I believe deserves microscopic scrutiny given the asking price. I'm already willing to state that the midrange and soundstaging are the best I have ever heard in a dynamic headphone. I'm reserving judgment on the bass for now, because this is going to be just the classic quantity vs quality issue, and this it seems will require a SS amp to sort out. But the treble performance is still a question mark for me given this is an expensive, "statement" headphone.

 

[wakeride74]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Currawong /img/forum/go_quote.gif Shotgun summary: They are jack of all trades, but master of none. Individual other headphones will do certain music better. My example is Grado HF-1's with a Yamamoto amp is better with jazz. The HD-800's, to me, are very much a "monitor" type headphone, all revealing, with little colouration. The huge cavern around one's ears creates a wide, if not deep soundstage, but not distant. This single-ended though with a mid-range amp. Anything other than serious amping and serious source need not apply IMO, as if your gear isn't up to scratch, you're going to know fast. I have a Stax rig on which the Cowboy Junkies have zero sibilance, and my amp isn't sibilant with other headphones. It's most definitely the HD-800s. I'm going to review the situation in a week, once my new amp arrives and the HD-800's have had more burn-in. At the moment, when I don't listen, they play pink noise at normal listening levels. Another thing to add, I have the dreaded "clang", though, it's not a clang, but the spring inside where the headband connects to the cup frame that is rubbing against the hold in the headband where it's mounted. John, since you've been so attentive, could you do us a favour? Can you find out if the headband can be disconnected easily at the hinge? It doesn't look like this is easily possible. Between having to send my pair back to the USA and having to make a tiny adjustment to the hole the spring is in, I'd prefer the cheaper option.

Thanks for the response... In the past it seemed that most Senns usually really shined with classical and strings. I've owned 600's and 650's and still have some HD590's somewhere and that was my experience with all of them. If there is debate about sibilance though I think I might wait to check these out and see what the feedback is in a few months.

 

[The Monkey]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skylab /img/forum/go_quote.gif OK, for all you HD800 owners, here is a test track for you - "Burn Down This Town", by Roseanne Cash, from Black Cadillac. The HD800 are over-emphasizing the sibilants on this recording, on my 70 hour pair and in my current test system (SP Extreme/Denon CDR-W1500).

I think providing a reference tune, as you did above, is a good idea. At least we are getting closer to apples-to-apples. In that vein, when you state that the 800 is "over-emphasizing the sibilants" on that track, what are your comparator phones (i.e., which ones are getting it right)?

 

[Skylab]

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Monkey /img/forum/go_quote.gif I think providing a reference tune, as you did above, is a good idea. At least we are getting closer to apples-to-apples. In that vein, when you state that the 800 is "over-emphasizing the sibilants" on that track, what are your comparator phones (i.e., which ones are getting it right)?

Sorry - I should have been more clear - that is based on the presentation from two different systems -

1. Identical amp/source as for the HD800's, via the JVC DX1000
2. Different system via my B&W N800 speakers.

 

[rogue]

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnwmclean /img/forum/go_quote.gif rogue, do you leave the 840c on standby or completely turn it off after you finish listening? If the later try leaving it on at all times.

I already sold it, but I always left it on standby (never completely off) when I had it. Not that I see how it would make any difference.

I don't miss the 840C at all - while there was nothing particularly wrong with its sound (besides the slight sibilance), the ECD-1 is head and shoulders above it in terms of musicality and the corresponding enjoyment I get out of my music.

 

[robm321]

OMG people would you allow a bit of reality in - Skylab has a great system and is not a noob. He knows what he hears. How about letting him say what he hears without everyone hammering him like everything other than the HD800s are the cause of his issue.

Geeeeze - FOTM at it's peak.

(IMHO)

 

[k3oxkjo]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hopstretch /img/forum/go_quote.gif There's actually a lot of sibilance on that particular track (and "The Trinity Session" in general). Taking Skylab's suggestion of putting speakers into the mix, it's also very noticeable through both my Quad studio monitors, which are pretty neutral, and Aerial floorstanders (off a separate source in another room), which are on the warm end of the spectrum. Then went over to the same track on "Trinity Revisited" and there's none at all on the HD800s or the speakers.

As I remember, the "Trinity Sessions" was recorded to DAT on the cheap and minimally processed prior to mastering, which would suggest no "de-esser" was used (all to the good IMHO). Some sibilance on the recording would be expected, how much depending on how closely mic'ed the singer was.

 

[JaZZ]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skylab /img/forum/go_quote.gif ...I have read the posts from Larry (and others) that OTL amps may not be ideal for the HD800 due to the high inductance, but I would think that would be an issue effecting the bass, not the treble.

Inductance affects the treble.

The rise of the curve towards 20 kHz is caused by inductance. An OTL tube amp with a high output impedance will modulate the frequency response according to the impedance curve, so the higher the output impedance, the more pronounced the bass hump and the upper treble.
.

 

[rangen]

Quote:

Originally Posted by robm321 /img/forum/go_quote.gif OMG people would you allow a possible flaw - Skylab has a great system and is not a noob. He knows what he hears. How about letting him say what he hears without everyone hammering him like everything other than the HD800s are the cause of his issue. Geeeeze - FOTM at it's peak. (IMHO)

I believe it was Kurosawa who did a movie showing the same events through different sets of eyes, demonstrating just how different things looked, from the different perspectives. Then The Simpsons picked it up.

What my eyes saw was not a frantic defense of the HD800, nor any attempt to denigrate Skylab as inexperienced or hearing-deficient (Ha! As though that would even conceivably be an argument that would get any traction here). What I saw was a group of people confronted by an interesting and perplexing set of observations about a subject of great interest, and trying to pool information and devise useful questions and experiments, and explore what was really going on. I'm pretty familiar with such group problem-solving processes, being an engineer in a collaborative field, and this one looks just fine to me.

For me, once Skylab characterized the issue as possibly an excessive emphasis of treble, including recording sibilance, rather than the headphone producing sibilance where none exists on the recording, I was able to align it with my own experiences, at least in the following sense: There are recordings (including Buddy Holly's "Well ...All Right," as I mentioned on Head-Fi somewhere) that were unendurable to me with my nearly-new HD800s, because of excessive treble impact (a cymbal being banged right in my ear, in the case of the Holly recording). Now that I've got maybe 120 hours on my HD800s, I am able to listen to most of these recordings just fine, because the treble has rounded off, exhibiting more of the friendly quality of HD650 treble -- not the rolloff, but some of the the approachability and smoothness. I do still hope for somewhat more of the same effect, but it wouldn't take much at this point to make me wholly content with the treble.

 

[The Monkey]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skylab /img/forum/go_quote.gif Sorry - I should have been more clear - that is based on the presentation from two different systems - 1. Identical amp/source as for the HD800's, via the JVC DX1000 2. Different system via my B&W N800 speakers.

Thanks. My rig is in flux at the moment, but I hope to be able to try a similar comparison soon(ish). I think we'll all probably have to agree that these are relative as opposed to absolute comparisons (i.e., what is "right" in terms of treble to me might not be right to someone else), but that is still useful for articulating differences between phones.

 

[robm321]

Quote:

Originally Posted by rangen /img/forum/go_quote.gif I believe it was Kurosawa who did a movie showing the same events through different sets of eyes, demonstrating just how different things looked, from the different perspectives. Then The Simpsons picked it up. What my eyes saw was not a frantic defense of the HD800, nor any attempt to denigrate Skylab as inexperienced or hearing-deficient (Ha! As though that would even conceivably be an argument that would get any traction here). What I saw was a group of people confronted by an interesting and perplexing set of observations about a subject of great interest, and trying to pool information and devise useful questions and experiments, and explore what was really going on. I'm pretty familiar with such group problem-solving processes, being an engineer in a collaborative field, and this one looks just fine to me. For me, once Skylab characterized the issue as possibly an excessive emphasis of treble, including recording sibilance, rather than the headphone producing sibilance where none exists on the recording, I was able to align it with my own experiences, at least in the following sense: There are recordings (including Buddy Holly's "Well ...All Right," as I mentioned on Head-Fi somewhere) that were unendurable to me with my nearly-new HD800s, because of excessive treble impact (a cymbal being banged right in my ear, in the case of the Holly recording). Now that I've got maybe 120 hours on my HD800s, I am able to listen to most of these recordings just fine, because the treble has rounded off, exhibiting more of the friendly quality of HD650 treble -- not the rolloff, but some of the the approachability and smoothness. I do still hope for somewhat more of the same effect, but it wouldn't take much at this point to make me wholly content with the treble.

The FR graph indicates that it is subject to sibilance - the upper mids are recessed, then followed with a spike. A system can help to a degree, but for those that don't like the hot top end, it won't save the situation in most cases.

Give it time, people will start to dial in the flaws along with the goodness in the HD800 and we will have a clearer picture. I just don't think Skylab should have to get a whole new system when his is very adequate. OTL may not gel well but I doubt he will hear things all that much differently with another amp. I've been around long enough to realize that. The HD650 was forced down my throat and after trying it balanced in many set ups, the flaws still bothered me.

Obviously the HD800 doesn't create sibilance if its not in the recording. No headphone I've heard does. But it's good for people that are sensitive that to know that it is an issue with the HD800s.

That being said, it has been a very mature debate about it which is good to see.

 

[boomana]

Skylab, I have the Black Cadillac[/I] cd, and will check it out with my speaker rig (Cain & Cain Abbys with sub) and with the 800s and the two sources. I also use my Extreme Platinum as a preamp in this rig, but have an integrated amp I can try out as well.

 

[Skylab]

Quote:

Originally Posted by robm321 /img/forum/go_quote.gif OMG people would you allow a bit of reality in - Skylab has a great system and is not a noob. He knows what he hears. How about letting him say what he hears without everyone hammering him like everything other than the HD800s are the cause of his issue. Geeeeze - FOTM at it's peak. (IMHO)

Rob, I really appreciate your post, but I have not taken any comments personally at all - no worries. I knew making any negative comment on the HD800 would meet with lots of commentary to the contrary, but that is as it should be, and all good.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JaZZ /img/forum/go_quote.gif Inductance affects the treble. The rise of the curve towards 20 kHz is caused by inductance. An OTL tube amp with a high output impedance will modulate the frequency response according to the impedance curve, so the higher the output impedance, the more pronounced the bass hump and the upper treble. .

OK, fair enough (although much less so than the bass) - but I am experiencing the same phenomenon with a SS amp.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rangen /img/forum/go_quote.gif What my eyes saw was not a frantic defense of the HD800, nor any attempt to denigrate Skylab as inexperienced or hearing-deficient (Ha! As though that would even conceivably be an argument that would get any traction here). What I saw was a group of people confronted by an interesting and perplexing set of observations about a subject of great interest, and trying to pool information and devise useful questions and experiments, and explore what was really going on. I'm pretty familiar with such group problem-solving processes, being an engineer in a collaborative field, and this one looks just fine to me.

Nicely put

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Monkey /img/forum/go_quote.gif Thanks. My rig is in flux at the moment, but I hope to be able to try a similar comparison soon(ish). I think we'll all probably have to agree that these are relative as opposed to absolute comparisons (i.e., what is "right" in terms of treble to me might not be right to someone else), but that is still useful for articulating differences between phones.

I agree with that, but what we are trying to get to, I think, is whether the HD800 has an extra "charachter" or coloration here, however slight it may be.

Quote:

Originally Posted by boomana /img/forum/go_quote.gif Skylab, I have the Black Cadillac cd, and will check it out with my speaker rig (Cain & Cain Abbys with sub) and with the 800s and the two sources. I also use my Extreme Platinum as a preamp in this rig, but have an integrated amp I can try out as well.[/i]

Terrific, thanks! That would be great. Please compare and let us all know what you hear.

 

[k3oxkjo]

Quote:

Originally Posted by rangen /img/forum/go_quote.gif For me, once Skylab characterized the issue as possibly an excessive emphasis of treble, including recording sibilance, rather than the headphone producing sibilance where none exists on the recording, I was able to align it with my own experiences, at least in the following sense: There are recordings (including Buddy Holly's "Well ...All Right," as I mentioned on Head-Fi somewhere) that were unendurable to me with my nearly-new HD800s, because of excessive treble impact (a cymbal being banged right in my ear, in the case of the Holly recording). Now that I've got maybe 120 hours on my HD800s, I am able to listen to most of these recordings just fine, because the treble has rounded off, exhibiting more of the friendly quality of HD650 treble -- not the rolloff, but some of the the approachability and smoothness. I do still hope for somewhat more of the same effect, but it wouldn't take much at this point to make me wholly content with the treble.

Funny thing about the cymbals in "Well all Right". I brought the CD (you want the one called "Buddy Holly from the original master tapes" with the orange and light green cover) to an aquaintence who owned early series Infinity IRS many years ago and it drove the line source of EMIT's absolutely bonkers! By the later series, the EMIT's had been improved and it was OK, but that track is a treble torture test (or TTT as we say in the trade

).

And dig the bass transient from the ribbon mic's on the popped "p's" on "True Love Ways" if your woofers have the firepower. And the slate announcement at the start of that track...spooky!