[vaibhavp]

It seems like for some reason, the Bryston BHA-1 doesn't sound to have a emphasis at 5-6k as other devices. I tried the HD660S with Cayin N5ii protable digital music player, and pretty good results for a portable player. Clean response(fast damped, and clear), but also slight peak heard at 5-6k compared to the Bryston. Bryston output no brightness with the HD660S.

More listening with the Darkvoice 336SE OTL. The bass sounds more loose, and more in quantity and has more dynamics as I've mentioned before, but also, the response as a whole sound more fuzzier than clear, with slight grain heard as well. So, it seems to loosen up the driver. I personally think that HD660S is best heard with something that has very low output impedance like a solid-state that provides greater damping to the response(but also, this would characteristically damp it enough to reduce bass dynamism, in which I find to be a bit lacking in terms of dynamics). HD660S should have that clean, fast response due to this, which seems to be how it should respond.

I'm starting to like it more due to the weight of the thing, and I like the clamping force on my head(it feels like, it's a solid seal around my ears), easy to move your head around due the weight. Light weight headphones are comfortable(I never took much into consideration in the past). Also, the treble I like when it comes to the sound.

I hope headphones get lighter and lighter. LOL.

My Burson soloist sl also behaves in similar fashion. Its neutral but tends to control treble peaks quiet well. I remember when I tried hd800 on it for the first time. It did much better job of keeping treble in check compared to supposedly warm sounding solid state stuff.

 

[Mike F]

And / But

There is sort of an inflection point(of no return) to this.
Recently I had a serious listening session and opportunity to check the ‚scaling limit‘ of the HD660s benchmarking it against the HD880s.
First, a jitterbug/Dragonfly Red combination ie just 2.1V fed the HD800s.
The 660s was fed by a Metrum Amethyst.
I consider this afair comparison.
660s was NOT able to surpass the 800s.
Significantly so. Same I would guess is true for the HD650.
Source was Tidal HiFi with an excellent quality recordings selection.

That doesn't surprise me at all. See the rest of my post from which you quoted.

 

[musikverein]

That doesn't surprise me at all. See the rest of my post from which you quoted.

Which, then
makes the whole noise floor of HD660s v HD650 quite
redundant.
Doesn’t it?

 

[Mike F]

Which, then
makes the whole noise floor of HD660s v HD650 quite
redundant.
Doesn’t it?

I'm not sure what you mean?

 

[musikverein]

And / But

There is sort of an inflection point(of no return) to this.
Recently I had a serious listening session and opportunity to check the ‚scaling limit‘ of the HD660s benchmarking it against the HD880s.
First, a jitterbug/Dragonfly Red combination ie just 2.1V fed the HD800s.
The 660s was fed by a Metrum Amethyst.
I consider this afair comparison.
660s was NOT able to surpass the 800s.
Significantly so. Same I would guess is true for the HD650.
Source was Tidal HiFi with an excellent quality recordings selection.

To refine that, the source and chain is, and often cables are as well, able to ‚up’a very good headphone to a a certain degree i.e. one level up.
But it does not do it in case/comparison between HD650/HD660s v HD800m/HD800s.

 

[musikverein]

I'm not sure what you mean?

Just a matter of taste.

At 399$€ you will soon get a 660s including the balanced cable.
Or get a 650 with a good balanced one.

Perhaps it is also about the use case - hence, I tend to favor the 660s if we are talking (mobile) personal audio.

 

[Mike F]

To refine that, the source and chain is, and often cables are as well, able to ‚up’a very good headphone to a a certain degree i.e. one level up.
But it does not do it in case/comparison between HD650/HD660s v HD800m/HD800s.

I absolutely agree.

 

[Mike F]

Perhaps it is also about the use case - hence, I tend to favor the 660s if we are talking (mobile) personal audio.

I'm sure that's the case. Certainly, if I had a potable amp or DAP that had the balanced Pentagon connector and I was choosing between the 650 and 660 S there wouldn't be any question about which I would choose.

 

[Rob80b]

It seems like for some reason, the Bryston BHA-1 doesn't sound to have a emphasis at 5-6k as other devices. I tried the HD660S with Cayin N5ii protable digital music player, and pretty good results for a portable player. Clean response(fast damped, and clear), but also slight peak heard at 5-6k compared to the Bryston. Bryston output no brightness with the HD660S.
........

Could explain why my two years with the HD700s were never problematic… : )

Now don’t go thinking the Bryston rolled off the highs….they definitely didn’t...paired with an equally revealing source …in my case a Bryston BCD-1…every peak was clearly evident but still part of the music and not some irritating spike in the ear.

All this enhanced the moments of realism I had experienced with the 700s….the 660S being an obvious offspring of the 600 series not so much.

 

[vaibhavp]

Could explain why my two years with the HD700s were never problematic… : )

Now don’t go thinking the Bryston rolled off the highs….they definitely didn’t...paired with an equally revealing source …in my case a Bryston BCD-1…every peak was clearly evident but still part of the music and not some irritating spike in the ear.

All this enhanced the moments of realism I had experienced with the 700s….the 660S being an obvious offspring of the 600 series not so much.

Its not a roll off, what I am experiencing. Its more of a tighter control over driver. So driver does not spill into unwanted resonance in hf range.

 

[Rob80b]

Probably a dedicated thread or 2 out there addressing the issue… but thought I’d give my 2 cents worth….

For those who do complain fairly often about irritating peaks, sibilance and harshness with headphone listening I’m starting to think it has more to do with their source as they all appear to be a common problem and much discussion surrounds it these days….in the pre digital era, therefore vinyl and tape, treble problems were hardly discussed at all…in fact it normally was only an issue if the azimuth or some other adjustment was off with the stylus.

But now I can never get half way through any headphone discussion without it becoming a hot topic, 6kHz that, 10kHz this, heck most music instrument fundamentals are below 2kHz…it gets pretty tiring. Granted today’s equipment is a lot more revealing but my non-scientific formalized theories continue to point a finger at the digital medium, there are a lot of discussion about DACs and whatnots as a lot of headfiers are using their computers and small USB DACs.

And usually it’s the higher frequencies which are problematic and for good reason, timing and syncopation….again back in the analogue era getting the oscillators fined tuned in analogue synths were a constant headache…and guess what were the most problematic…the higher frequencies and for good reason.



Now imagine getting both channels off a complex “stereo” waveform perfectly in sync with no phase shifts, and this includes all associated harmonics of the fundamental vibrating at thousands of a second once they’ve been converted and fed off the DAC,



blatant stereo and uncommon high frequencies between the stereo channels may sound fine but common shared frequencies (think mono) if not perfectly aligned will produce buzziness, perceived distortion and stridency and all the more obviously troublesome if the manufacturer of certain headphones induced certain frequencies to address anomalies inherent in trying to create a perceived flat frequency within the ear canal.

So what does not appear to be a hot topic and should be is the actual post-amplification off the DACS that gets amplified by the head-amp…there’s a reason higher end companies take great strides to address that area.

Take my own source, the Bryston BCD-1 for example, where the manufacturer paid a lot of attention in getting the best signal possible off Redbook CDs.

“In addition to the low-jitter common master clock, the Bryston engineers have done two other things to reduce noise, jitter, and distortion before the D/A conversion stage. Careful routing of the circuit-board traces reduces noise from capacitive coupling between the digital- and analog-bearing lines; and discrete digital and analog power supplies, closely regulated and filtered, help maintain the integrity of the audio signal. The DAC's analog signal is fed to an output stage running in class-A and assembled from discrete components, which makes possible higher power outputs than are obtainable from integrated circuits. Bryston's extensive sorting and grading of the components comprising the analog output amplifiers are claimed to result in superior test-bench performance. “
Read more at https://www.stereophile.com/content/bryston-bcd-1-cd-player-page-2#ssZqcZgBDoP4qe28.99

Making sure that tiny signal is not polluted by unwanted noise is a big deal…. which because whatever is added to the analogue signal will be amplified….those believing their on board computer card and power source offer the same signal fidelity are IMHO really wishful thinking, advertising does persuade! And and we also need to address the ability for the circuitry in the amplifier itself to accommodate and not distort all this high and low frequency energy (waveforms) we perceive as music.

We’ve made great strides in the last twenty years and my personal foray in the early seventies trucking around with a portable mono cassette player and some unknown headphone pales in comparison to the fidelity offered to the consumer today with extremely affordable playback systems with which they can enjoy music. Just the fact that personal headphone listening is the preferred mode of musical transmission compounds the problem in contrast to a stereo speaker system as the drivers/speakers are now always constantly in extreme close proximity to the ears and easily revealing all deficiencies in the amplified signal from upstream.

 

[Mike F]

We’ve made great strides in the last twenty years and my personal foray in the early seventies trucking around with a portable mono cassette player and some unknown headphone pales in comparison to the fidelity offered to the consumer today with extremely affordable playback systems with which they can enjoy music. Just the fact that personal headphone listening is the preferred mode of musical transmission compounds the problem in contrast to a stereo speaker system as the drivers/speakers are now always constantly in extreme close proximity to the ears and easily revealing all deficiencies in the amplified signal from upstream.

Great post, Rob. I would just add one thing which is relevant to the highlighted part, and that is that a lot of the older music we listen to was mixed on monitors to be listened to (and therefore sound good) on speakers - not headphones!

 

[SP Wild]

I beg to differ Rob80b. The treble problems is less to do with analogue vs digital and more to do with the loudness wars.

Not only did the loudness wars brickwalled the oscilloscope, it also brickwalled the spectrum analyser.

Modern music therefore exhibits properties of pink or white noise. Modern music is ruthless at revealing peaky treble response. Or any other frequency response anomaly. As is white or pink noise.

 

[Sigmaaa]

Burson is dark and slow sounding, it can mask hd700 treble peak to some extent, but at the same time not the most revealing brand. All is compromises and gear matching, there's no miracles, I'm afraid.
And let's not forget the tubes. Yes, they warm things up, but the sound becomes too fuzzy and distorted for me.


660s cannot surpass the hd800s no matter the source, but hd650 can. If powered by the Death Star, the hd650 can surpass the live performances too.

 

[Rob80b]

Great post, Rob. I would just add one thing which is relevant to the highlighted part, and that is that a lot of the older music we listen to was mixed on monitors to be listened to (and therefore sound good) on speakers - not headphones!

Good point...but I did do a lot of my mixing with the Koss ProAA in the 70s and then the AKG K240DFs. in the 80s : )