[Mike F]

Dont know if compression, but there are certainly some spikes in treble, which cause everything sounds so life and close.
Maybe this measurement shows how treble on HD660s sounds for me ... a little boosted.

Here is my suggestion for amplification:
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/amp-for-hd660s.868475/#post-14239211

If nothing else this FR graph shows how little about the sound of a headphone they tell us. On this, and most other FR graphs comparing the HD 650 and HD 660 S, the bass response is virtually identical, but the universal opinion seems to be that they sound quite different in the bass........

 

[pietcux]

If nothing else this FR graph shows how little about the sound of a headphone they tell us. On this, and most other FR graphs comparing the HD 650 and HD 660 S, the bass response is virtually identical, but the universal opinion seems to be that they sound quite different in the bass........

I am in my hotel room in Helsinki/Finland right now listening to my HD660S from my WM1A balanced. Nice way to finish a long working day. Guys, take a break from measurements discussion and listen to your favorite music.
Mike, sorry that you are not in Finland, you missed the best May weather period that the natives here can remember and the opportunity to listen to this exceptional headphone.

 

[pietcux]

 

[Mike F]

I am in my hotel room in Helsinki/Finland right now listening to my HD660S from my WM1A balanced. Nice way to finish a long working day. Guys, take a break from measurements discussion and listen to your favorite music.
Mike, sorry that you are not in Finland, you missed the best May weather period that the natives here can remember and the opportunity to listen to this exceptional headphone.

I AM in Finland, but I've been working tonight in a sweaty theatre in Vasa. Yes, the weather is exceptional. Enjoy your time here!

 

[jude]

I've seen Jude's graphs that didn't make sense to me, different from what I was hearing. Just like his HD650 and HD660S graph, and I can't see his Focal graphs represents the headphones well. I've seen his Utopia graph with a 7k peak(and then later I see another graph from him with 6k there instead), but others I've seen was at 6k, and I do hear it at 6k.

One thing I agree is that different rigs results in some variations, but I wouldn't say Jude's graphs are more accurate. He may have the accurate rig, but I'm sure there more to it than the rig.

Some things to keep in mind:

• I try to remember, when posting any measurements, to post exactly what gear was used to capture those measurements. Also, I try to remember to always include other pertinent information, like if compensation was used (and, if so, what kind -- though (outside of raw plots) I've only used one compensation curve so far in the past three years), if smoothing was applied (and, if so, how much), where the plots are normalized/matched (if normalizing was done), etc.
  
  
• For the Focal measurements, I've used three different measurement setups. The first Focal Elear / Utopia measurements from June 2016 were performed on a GRAS 45CA using GRAS RA0045 standard IEC 60318-4 ear simulators. The Focal Clear measurements (which also included the other Focal models) from October 2017 were made using the GRAS 45BB-12 KEMAR with anthropometric pinnae and newer GRAS 43BB low-noise ear simulators. The Focal Elex measurements (which also included the other Focal models) from December 2017 were made using the GRAS 45CA using the newer GRAS RA0401 high-resolution ear simulators and the new anthropometric pinnae for the GRAS 45CA.
  
  
  • Going from 2016 to 2017, we've gained quite a lot of valuable experience using KEMAR, as he has more human-like proportions that can help guide a more realistic range of headphone positioning. Our experience using a more human-like fixture has actually informed our later use of the GRAS 45CA, which we've been using more and more since outfitting the 45CA with GRAS's new high-resolution ear simulators and anthropometric pinnae.
    
    
  • If you're wondering why we've used three different headphone test fixture configurations, it's because in the past two years, GRAS has released more advanced measurement equipment, in terms of more accurate ear simulators (GRAS 43BB for low-noise with some improvements over standard 60318-4 over 10 kHz, and GRAS RA0401/02 for more consistent, extended measurements above 10 kHz, with +/- 2.2 dB tolerance from 10 kHz to 20 kHz.
    
    
    • We will always strive to use the most advanced methods and gear available to us for audio measurements. While there is certainly an advantage to using the same rig the same way every single time, there have finally been recent advancements in headphone measurement technologies (after 30 or 40 years of relative inactivity in this respect), with more coming -- the market is now there for it. GRAS, Brüel & Kjær, Audio Precision, Listen Inc. and a few other companies are really pushing advancements in electroacoustic test and measurement.
      
      
• I strongly suggest you watch this video we posted about how we position headphones on two different headphone test fixtures. Note how even small differences in position has substantial impact on the measurement, especially in the higher frequencies. When we post the measurements of the updated Massdrop x Sennheiser HD58X Jubilee (production version) and compare them to the previous measurements, you will see why understanding placement on the fixtures is important. It is important to know how the measurer is measuring and what the measurer is using to measure. Don't just accept any measurement as gospel -- and if you're going to look at a measurement and make an assessment (or support an argument) about a headphone with the measurement you should definitely know how it was made.

​

• When it comes to the Sennheiser HD600/650/6XX/58X headphones, it is very important that the condition of the earpads is consistent from measurement to measurement. The earpads of these models are particularly susceptible to wear/crush as they age (it doesn't take long for the shape to change due to the compression from normal use), as they're not filled with the newer-type memory foam that's being increasingly employed in other headphones. Even for the series of HD800 measurements we did for the distortion analysis, all were brand new (unless otherwise specified) and never worn prior to the posted measurements.
  
  
• When it comes to any headphone, we've now started noting (where applicable and reasonably possible) the setting of the headband for each measurement. That can (and does) affect the measurements. Using measurements, we showed the effects on sensitivity of the HD650 and HD660S at three different tightness settings (LINK). Headband settings affect not only the distance of the driver to the ear, but also the position of the driver over the year. This is why we're now recording (when applicable and reasonable) the headband size setting for each measurement.
  
  
• I'm actually at Brüel & Kjær's Sound & Vibration Chicago Conference at the moment, but will be back very soon. When I'm back I'll post a quick anecdote about a simple test we did that showed how two people wearing the exact same headphone playing the exact same signal (at the exact same volume level) can have very different experiences, independent of tastes and preferences. (It's relevant to some of the discussion I've seen in the last couple of pages.)

 

[trellus]

• • When we post the measurements of the updated Massdrop x Sennheiser HD58X Jubilee (production version) and compare them to the previous measurements,

When will this be?

And thanks for the extensive post above, excellent stuff!

 

[vaibhavp]

Some things to keep in mind:

• I try to remember, when posting any measurements, to post exactly what gear was used to capture those measurements. Also, I try to remember to always include other pertinent information, like if compensation was used (and, if so, what kind -- though (outside of raw plots) I've only used one compensation curve so far in the past three years), if smoothing was applied (and, if so, how much), where the plots are normalized/matched (if normalizing was done), etc.
  
  
• For the Focal measurements, I've used three different measurement setups. The first Focal Elear / Utopia measurements from June 2016 were performed on a GRAS 45CA using GRAS RA0045 standard IEC 60318-4 ear simulators. The Focal Clear measurements (which also included the other Focal models) from October 2017 were made using the GRAS 45BB-12 KEMAR with anthropometric pinnae and newer GRAS 43BB low-noise ear simulators. The Focal Elex measurements (which also included the other Focal models) from December 2017 were made using the GRAS 45CA using the newer GRAS RA0401 high-resolution ear simulators and the new anthropometric pinnae for the GRAS 45CA.
  
  • Going from 2016 to 2017, we've gained quite a lot of valuable experience using KEMAR, as he has more human-like proportions that can help guide a more realistic range of headphone positioning. Our experience using a more human-like fixture has actually informed our later use of the GRAS 45CA, which we've been using more and more since outfitting the 45CA with GRAS's new high-resolution ear simulators and anthropometric pinnae.
    
    
  • If you're wondering why we've used three different headphone test fixture configurations, it's because in the past two years, GRAS has released more advanced measurement equipment, in terms of more accurate ear simulators (GRAS 43BB for low-noise with some improvements over standard 60318-4 over 10 kHz, and GRAS RA0401/02 for more consistent, extended measurements above 10 kHz, with +/- 2.2 dB tolerance from 10 kHz to 20 kHz.
    
    • We will always strive to use the most advanced methods and gear available to us for audio measurements. While there is certainly an advantage to using the same rig the same way every single time, there have finally been recent advancements in headphone measurement technologies (after 30 or 40 years of relative inactivity in this respect), with more coming -- the market is now there for it. GRAS, Brüel & Kjær, Audio Precision, Listen Inc. and a few other companies are really pushing advancements in electroacoustic test and measurement.
      
• I strongly suggest you watch this video we posted about how we position headphones on two different headphone test fixtures. Note how even small differences in position has substantial impact on the measurement, especially in the higher frequencies. When we post the measurements of the updated Massdrop x Sennheiser HD58X Jubilee (production version) and compare them to the previous measurements, you will see why understanding placement on the fixtures is important. It is important to know how the measurer is measuring and what the measurer is using to measure. Don't just accept any measurement as gospel -- and if you're going to look at a measurement and make an assessment (or support an argument) about a headphone with the measurement you should definitely know how it was made.

​

• When it comes to the Sennheiser HD600/650/6XX/58X headphones, it is very important that the condition of the earpads is consistent from measurement to measurement. The earpads of these models are particularly susceptible to wear/crush as they age (it doesn't take long for the shape to change due to the compression from normal use), as they're not filled with the newer-type memory foam that's being increasingly employed in other headphones. Even for the series of HD800 measurements we did for the distortion analysis, all were brand new (unless otherwise specified) and never worn prior to the posted measurements.
  
  
• When it comes to any headphone, we've now started noting (where applicable and reasonably possible) the setting of the headband for each measurement. That can (and does) affect the measurements. Using measurements, we showed the effects on sensitivity of the HD650 and HD660S at three different tightness settings (LINK). Headband settings affect not only the distance of the driver to the ear, but also the position of the driver over the year. This is why we're now recording (when applicable and reasonable) the headband size setting for each measurement.
  
  
• I'm actually at Brüel & Kjær's Sound & Vibration Chicago Conference at the moment, but will be back very soon. When I'm back I'll post a quick anecdote about a simple test we did that showed how two people wearing the exact same headphone playing the exact same signal (at the exact same volume level) can have very different experiences, independent of tastes and preferences. (It's relevant to some of the discussion I've seen in the last couple of pages.)

Interestingly there so many ways to get different measurements. Your earpads are 2 days older, your headband is not correctly extended etc.

This is not even counting different setups you can use that will affect it.

If you are really a scientific person, you would run away from this lottery at first sight.

Unless you are pretentious and want to prove how deep you are in this hobby and are way knowledgeable too that you follow scientific methods.

 

[Anarion]

When will this be?

And thanks for the extensive post above, excellent stuff!

I would like to know this too. Hopefully it's soon!

 

[cirodts]

hi, the hd660s sounds good with metal music coupled with mojo?

 

[DavidA]

hi, the hd660s sounds good with metal music coupled with mojo?

Its okay.

 

[xxAMAROKxx]

660s are very sensitive to amps.

 

[SilverEars]

hi, the hd660s sounds good with metal music coupled with mojo?

I think for metal music you want responses that has good level of 6-8k response, and perhaps on the bright side. I think the HD660S is reduced 7k to provide that peak distortion treble(I'd still recommend you hear it out). I'm realizing for rock 7k is important. It provides the cymbal accuracy and distortion sound peak point sound for that energetic sound.

I think the HD660S isn't that close to neutral after 6k, and there is probably more of a recess after that. 7k level lower than to have lively cymbal type tonalities. Althogh speed is good for rock for separation of sounds, but it doesn't have the peak treble point for the dynamics I find. After all this time, I'm most definate on the point that the HD660S has a 5-6k bump, but not all that drastic of a rise under 5k, or I'd hear severe recess there.

I'm not saying it's terrible for rock, but sayin that rock tonality could be slightly better. If you like rock tonality more laid-back, HD660S should work. I think HD600 and HD800(S) work better for rock(although some may prefer more laid back for rock particularly if they have those old peaky treble recordings). I'm starting to get a sense that for rock you need a bit of leveled treble area with no drop after 6k. You don't want to dull out the rock instrumental dynamics.

It does sound somewhat similar to HD650 in how it suppresses 7k, but with slight 6k emphasis compared to HD650 being more present in the upper mids which doesn't emphasize the 5-6k as much, but HD650 treble comes off smooth due to rising to 5k instead of 6k on the HD660S. HD660S dynamics is similar to HD650 like a veil of sort which I'm thinking is 7k onwards.

HD660S does come off on the smooth side with HD650 being even more to the point of veil, but HD660S does have a slight veil as well due to that drop after 6k. 6k doesn't sound all that peaky, but definately a rise there with 5k(perhaps 5k is more rise, and heard more due to lower level upper mids than the HD650). This is why it's not fatiguing like the HD650, and still on the smooth side in terms of treble response. It just has the 5-6k bump for articulation

 

[cirodts]

thanks.

 

[Sigmaaa]

I can hear the hd660s being brighter above 7khz compared to hd650. If I bring the 8k and 16k eq sliders down, it sounds like hd650. Not so much if I try the 4k slider, they seem closer there.

 

[Mike F]

I can hear the hd660s being brighter above 7khz compared to hd650. If I bring the 8k and 16k eq sliders down, it sounds like hd650. Not so much if I try the 4k slider, they seem closer there.

A software EQ like Sonarworks would give you much finer control. Have you ever tried the SW EQ? It's quite a revelation!