[Mike F]

I wonder at what point hd650 scales up and overtake hd800.

Theoretically its possible. If a hp scales endlessly then there has to be electronics that should allow this to happen.

No, not ever going to happen. Much as I prefer the overall tonal correctness of the HD 650 over the HD 800 the HD 650 will never 'scale' to the point where it could be considered superior to the HD 800.

However, which do you think would give a better performance; HD 650 balanced from an HDVD 800, or HD 800 direct from an iPhone? I think that although we talk about how one headphone compares to another here so often as if the headphone itself is the main consideration when it comes to the resulting sound, the truth is that the source and amp actually has more to do with it. A decent hp can sound great if the source and amp is great, but a great hp can sound crap if the source and amp are crap. 'Rubbish in - rubbish out' is what they used to say, isn't it Rob?!

 

[Rob80b]

..........
I also enjoy mostly neutral system that places me in the audiance. My current system of mojo>burson soloist sl, I don't know how it compare to $5000 bryston setup, but it definitely has same intentions.

I'm just an old Bryston stalwart since the 80s.....I'm sure one can do it for a lot less than $5000...even a tenth of that....... : )

 

[Rob80b]

................. 'Rubbish in - rubbish out' is what they used to say, isn't it Rob?!

Which is probably why so many of the phones I prefer get panned....most today have a tendency to blame the headphone and not the rubbish....lol

 

[SilverEars]

I've been enjoying this track on the HD660S

 

[Sigmaaa]

Mike F, still the 660s specialist and thread patron, keep up the good job, sir! This is hilarious...

 

[SilverEars]

This headphone is definitely growing on me. Usually there's the new toy syndrome, and then reality sets soon after. With these, it is the opposite experience. I initially thought it sounded dull due to not sounding dynamic enough for liking, but more listen time with it, you see the benefits to these headphones.

The benefits is the treble, it doesn't get harsh at all, it's pretty smooth. If you listen to a lot of vocals, these would likely be good choice with the non-fatiguing, smooth treble for extended listening sessions. There is no real recession I can hear of the vocals(just slight at 2-3k), and hear no sharp treble peak. And, it doesn't sound dark either, so it's a good headphone for long listen session like the HD650, but with more treble energy for those music that needs it. I think the HD600 has a treble rising at 7k causing brightness for me, but I think the HD660S dropped it, making it sound smoother. 7k peak isn't pleasant.

Personally, I find the treble brightness at the right level for me. More dynamics, bass extension, and this headphone would certainly improve.

 

[Sigmaaa]

Hd600, compared to hd650 and other headphones (including 660s so far) is inconsistent in tonality, not only from piece to piece, but also between channels, most graphs showing differences between left and right. Some have a bigger 3.5khz bump, some a 7khz bump, some weaker sub-bass than other. Maybe they save time and money by not checking driver matching. I wouldn't be bothered by the 3.5khz peak that some hate, but I'm too scared of channel matching to buy another hd600 after I sold mine.
If the record is harsh, the hd660s won't mask it. HD650 is still the best way to mask badly recorded/mixed and sibilant albums and make them listenable to some degree. It won't bring averything from a good album and lose some of the excitement and detail though.

 

[SilverEars]

Hd600, compared to hd650 and other headphones (including 660s so far) is inconsistent in tonality, not only from piece to piece, but also between channels, most graphs showing differences between left and right. Some have a bigger 3.5khz bump, some a 7khz bump, some weaker sub-bass than other. Maybe they save time and money by not checking driver matching. I wouldn't be bothered by the 3.5khz peak that some hate, but I'm too scared of channel matching to buy another hd600 after I sold mine.
If the record is harsh, the hd660s won't mask it. HD650 is still the best way to mask badly recorded/mixed and sibilant albums and make them listenable to some degree. It won't bring averything from a good album and lose some of the excitement and detail though.

I've seen overlayed graphs, and 7k is the difference I see of the HD600. I'm not bothered by 3.5khz either, but I've read people state Sundara to bright sounding, and I think think it's due to the upper mids(2-5k) to rise as getting to 5k. The lower treble on the other hand, it was subdued compared to HE560 which sounded bright at 7k. So, I'm sensitive from 6k onwards, but I think more sensitive to 7k. So, the lower treble is the area that would effect me in terms of how I gauge brightness.

If something is masking or not is pretty relative if you look at headphone responses, as recordings vary. Engineer ears vary, and so does their equipment. You can make the best judgement if the headphone is indeed a bright one or not. There are varying degree that sibilance can be brought out and heard depending on the response, what level is correct? I know one thing though, if I hear a headphone that is clearly bright, it's bright to my ears.

 

[Anarion]

Do you mean source, or amp?

Actually both. Though, I'd guss it's rare to have a source (DAC) that isn't neutral. That would be serious flaw... Amps are all over the place.

There are another things besides neutralness that are even more important in amp though. Crosstalk and dynamic range. Both are so dissapointing in my Objective 2 amp that I don't consider it neutral because it changes things too much. Stereo imaging looses accuracy and the dynamic range decrease is also very noticeable. Without knowing it would be easy to blame the headphones.

That's also why testing headphones with other equipment can be quite deceiving. It can give wrong impressions. Even when the amp is "neutral".

By the way, I did test HD 660 S using HDVD800 (but my phone as a source....). They seemed to work nicely together.

 

[Sigmaaa]

I've seen overlayed graphs, and 7k is the difference I see of the HD600. I'm not bothered by 3.5khz either, but I've read people state Sundara to bright sounding, and I think think it's due to the upper mids(2-5k) to rise as getting to 5k. The lower treble on the other hand, it was subdued compared to HE560 which sounded bright at 7k. So, I'm sensitive from 6k onwards, but I think more sensitive to 7k. So, the lower treble is the area that would effect me in terms of how I gauge brightness.

If something is masking or not is pretty relative if you look at headphone responses, as recordings vary. Engineer ears vary, and so does their equipment. You can make the best judgement if the headphone is indeed a bright one or not. There are varying degree that sibilance can be brought out and heard depending on the response, what level is correct? I know one thing though, if I hear a headphone that is clearly bright, it's bright to my ears.

I hate when people talk about brightness, treble, highs, mids etc and not khz. There's too much confusion.
Yes, some hd600 drivers have a 7khz peak too, but it's nothing compared to the hd700.
The 3.5khz shouldn't generate sibilance (which starts a bit higher). It can open up the vocals, which is good, but it can bring problems with harsh guitars on an overly aggressive song though or with some aggressive wind instruments. HD660s is a bit livelier in the 7-8khz area than hd650 for my ears too, but enough to call it perfectly neutral for me.
What I would like, for both hd650 and hd660s is a few dB less in the 80-300Hz area. HD600 can have that, but it's freq response is a lottery to some degree.

 

[SilverEars]

I hate when people talk about brightness, treble, highs, mids etc and not khz. There's too much confusion.
Yes, some hd600 drivers have a 7khz peak too, but it's nothing compared to the hd700.
The 3.5khz shouldn't generate sibilance (which starts a bit higher). It can open up the vocals, which is good, but it can bring problems with harsh guitars on an overly aggressive song though or with some aggressive wind instruments. HD660s is a bit livelier in the 7-8khz area than hd650 for my ears too, but enough to call it perfectly neutral for me.
What I would like, for both hd650 and hd660s is a few dB less in the 80-300Hz area. HD600 can have that, but it's freq response is a lottery to some degree.

I remember when I first asked about sibilance, somebody told me 4-7k. Before that I thought it was at 6 or 7k only.

What I notice now a days is sibilance I hear is from 5k on wards, but I just mainly hear 5k to about 9 or 10k, but only closer to 6k and around 7k(even perhaps 8k) are the strong ones. 5k has different sound that people may associate with glaring(or does glaring mean something else?), it's sharp shaaa sound(I always think people refer to this soubd for shoutyness). I think shoutyness is caused by recession before a sharp rise toward 5k. The shaaa sound gets sharper getting close to 5k, and upper mids sound like thin sounding treble, and as we start to reach 7k, when the treble sounds thickens and 6k sounds like chaa, and then transitions to taaaa. The chaaa to taaaaa sibilance is most annoying with thickened treble sound and more energy to the tone. 7k is of course cymbal sounds as well(for instumentation, it's an interesting and necessary area).

What I notice is that I can hear quite a bit of sibilance from a recording, but also cymbal can sound pretty accurate in tonality from the same headphone. So yeah, it's recording related, in type as well. Was de-essing done, etcc..

I do love Diana Krall's recordings as it has lots of vocal information, but I think her voice creates lots of sibilance and recording method didn't take out the sharp sibilance. Perhaps it was necessary to retain her vocal details.

You mean you want less of a hump in the lower end? Don't we all. It has hump like bass response with a roll-off at the lower end. Focal achieved more lifted bass as it gets lower with their higher offerings(for an openback dynamic). This hump provides more of rounded bass without that sub rumble. You should really hear out a cupped headphone like a Fostex TH-X00, it provides a 2nd bass characteristic in the subs which resonates. I think cupped can achieve this better, but also Planar can with linearity.

I find HD660S needs more impact and punchiness, it's a bit laid back in dynamics, and bass hitting harder is the backbone. Perhpas you are not into much bass quantity.

 

[Mike F]

I hate when people talk about brightness, treble, highs, mids etc and not khz. There's too much confusion.
Yes, some hd600 drivers have a 7khz peak too, but it's nothing compared to the hd700.
The 3.5khz shouldn't generate sibilance (which starts a bit higher). It can open up the vocals, which is good, but it can bring problems with harsh guitars on an overly aggressive song though or with some aggressive wind instruments. HD660s is a bit livelier in the 7-8khz area than hd650 for my ears too, but enough to call it perfectly neutral for me.
What I would like, for both hd650 and hd660s is a few dB less in the 80-300Hz area. HD600 can have that, but it's freq response is a lottery to some degree.

Sigmaaa, I agree that there's too much ambiguity when talking in general terms about 'treble' and so on as people frequently mean different things. Whilst it was still up on the net I did the Philips Golden Ear challenge. Part of the golden ears level was identifing the extra presence or absence of various frequencies on a test track. It's a pity that the site seems to have gone because it was a great test and training tool.

Also, I'm glad that my presence on this thread and my continued reluctance to purchase the HD 660 S (at current price levels) is proving so entertaining for you. I shall try to maintain the status quo for your benefit!

 

[SilverEars]

It seems like for some reason, the Bryston BHA-1 doesn't sound to have a emphasis at 5-6k as other devices. I tried the HD660S with Cayin N5ii protable digital music player, and pretty good results for a portable player. Clean response(fast damped, and clear), but also slight peak heard at 5-6k compared to the Bryston. Bryston output no brightness with the HD660S.

More listening with the Darkvoice 336SE OTL. The bass sounds more loose, and more in quantity and has more dynamics as I've mentioned before, but also, the response as a whole sound more fuzzier than clear, with slight grain heard as well. So, it seems to loosen up the driver. I personally think that HD660S is best heard with something that has very low output impedance like a solid-state that provides greater damping to the response(but also, this would characteristically damp it enough to reduce bass dynamism, in which I find to be a bit lacking in terms of dynamics). HD660S should have that clean, fast response due to this, which seems to be how it should respond.

I'm starting to like it more due to the weight of the thing, and I like the clamping force on my head(it feels like, it's a solid seal around my ears), easy to move your head around due the weight. Light weight headphones are comfortable(I never took much into consideration in the past). Also, the treble I like when it comes to the sound.

I hope headphones get lighter and lighter. LOL.

 

[Sigmaaa]

I've also thought the 5-6khz to be a bit boosted compared to HD650, but when lifting the EQ sliders, the 4kHz had almost no reaction, while the 8 and 16kHz were acting on the thing I thought was extra compared to the HD650. Reducing the 8-16kHz a few dB gave me a HD650 balance, the 4kHz had little effect in treble sharpness, only opened up (or muffled, if decreased) the sounds a little.

 

[musikverein]

However, which do you think would give a better performance; HD 650 balanced from an HDVD 800, or HD 800 direct from an iPhone? I think that although we talk about how one headphone compares to another here so often as if the headphone itself is the main consideration when it comes to the resulting sound, the truth is that the source and amp actually has more to do with it. A decent hp can sound great if the source and amp is great, but a great hp can sound crap if the source and amp are crap.

And / But

There is sort of an inflection point(of no return) to this.
Recently I had a serious listening session and opportunity to check the ‚scaling limit‘ of the HD660s benchmarking it against the HD880s.
First, a jitterbug/Dragonfly Red combination ie just 2.1V fed the HD800s.
The 660s was fed by a Metrum Amethyst.
I consider this afair comparison.
660s was NOT able to surpass the 800s.
Significantly so. Same I would guess is true for the HD650.
Source was Tidal HiFi with an excellent quality recordings selection.