[ppdv]

  Good way to compare, and evaluate, while at the store try to use equipment similar to what you have at home, or better yet take your dac/amp with you.  One thing I have found is that the HD-700 does better on the Ember due to its lower impedance while the HD-650 does much better on my BH Crack.  I love both for the different sound signatures so don't see me selling either one.

Thanks DavidA,
 
On the BH/Ember topic, i was giving it a thought that if i were to buy the Ember it would be again a Tube Dac with SS amp, where as what i had in mind was to use AUNE as the tube Buffer feed the BH making it a complete Tube chain without the use of Solid States anywhere. ( Just a thought )... any ideas or suggestions ?

 

[mikoss]

My opinion:
There are haters everywhere, I agree. In the case of headphone reviews, there are both haters, and hypers. We're free to read and find reviewers who generally have the same tastes as ourselves, or who give reviews which we can generally agree with. In the case of the 700's, the reviewers who I've found to be in alignment with are mostly unanimous in their verdict. But headphones can also be seen as a technical tool... they are transducers after all, converting electrical signals into sound. 
 
For the sake of what I know to sound true, I find frequency response graphs, and cumulative spectral decay plots to be effective in identifying sound signature "deal breakers"... 
 
HD-650 - lacking sub bass. Has a fairly linear response across most of the mid frequency range. Treble region is perhaps missing some detail information in the 4-5kHz range, but generally fairly smooth and rolled off. Nothing looks to be offensive, and no real spikes to speak of. I personally find the sound signature to match what I see in the graphs on these headphones... what the graph/plots don't show is their ability to scale with gear. Plugged into craptastic gear, they will sound boring... as you upgrade to better gear, these headphones will improve at every step. They are truly superb at scaling with gear. This may seem like something to be taken for granted, but some headphones will sound as good as they ever will regardless of gear. As for flaws of the 650's, perhaps it would be people who don't take the time to try them with better amps, or people who find them overly warm/lacking treble energy. Not a problem for myself... these are keepers in every way.
 
HD-800 - again, a fairly smooth looking response throughout. There is noticeable upper midrange scooping, or perhaps an emphasis on the treble, which in my opinion is tamed with the Anax mods. Much more energy in the treble region in comparison with the 650's, which translates into their revealing nature. These headphones are much more picky than the 650's, in that they are superb at revealing both excellent recordings, or flaws in your source material. I believe the reason why the 800's are so popular is because they stay true to the Sennheiser sound, which to me is the clarity I mentioned in my other post. The upper midrange scooping and/or emphasis on treble could be heard as the headphones lacking warmth. I do believe this is dependent on the source, but I am also a fan of the mod, as I find it removes some of that treble energy, and allows for the mids to come through. I don't find them to be scooped out sounding, but I do find them to be extremely revealing. For good recordings, these headphones are amazing. I would also suggest that both DAC and amp need to be thoughtfully chosen for driving these. They will pick up on any inherent flaws and expose them.
 
HD-700 - Ok, awesome... has some of the sub bass the 650 was lacking, but still generally lacks in comparison with the 800's. Mids are looking fairly even and nicely responsive... oh, wait, here is 1kHz and I'm beginning to scoop. Scoop scoop scoop. Ahhh, ok, no worries... this is just a bit more scooped than the 800's... no wait, it's much more scooped. We have lost a lot of upper midrange detail here. And treble. Pull up... pull up... pull up... JESUS!!! What did you do??? You could have just rolled off nicely like the 650's, but instead, you spiked and created this crazy intense ringing that will surely be a deal breaker for people who want an even keeled treble response. This needs to be fixed.
 
Let's assume the treble spike does become fixed... we are still left with a "huge" lack of information in that upper midrange region... I think this is truly a nail-in-the-coffin deal breaker. I just can't see this ending well... but I am entirely open to whatever can be done. I'm also not a fan of EQ, but maybe it will require some of that as well...

 

[ppdv]

^^
 
Hi Mikoss,
 
I get your point. I should now stop cabbaging my brains too much with the review information and wait for the product to arrive. Dang..!! the product is in transit and the wait is seeeeeeming a bit long

 
 
I will have a good listening on them and then decide it from there. But i would also be on the look out for good products (read: value for money) in amplifiers/Dacs and preferrably Tubes.

 

[DavidA]

  Thanks DavidA,
 
On the BH/Ember topic, i was giving it a thought that if i were to buy the Ember it would be again a Tube Dac with SS amp, where as what i had in mind was to use AUNE as the tube Buffer feed the BH making it a complete Tube chain without the use of Solid States anywhere. ( Just a thought )... any ideas or suggestions ?

The Ember is not a DAC, the tube section is just the driver section of the amp, similar to the front tube of the BH Crack.  The Aune T1 uses the tube in its DAC section and rolling tubes in it is fun, its was recommended by @mikoss for a friend who didn't want to spend much and its worked out great, she has K7XX and HD-650 and I gave her a few tubes to play with.
I also have a Lyr2 and the tubes there are driver tubes like the Ember.  I have a Bifrost, UD-301, Modi2Uber, Modi, Teac AH-01 for DACs along with the Xonar STX and DG cards in 2 of my systems.
 
If this is your first dedicated headphone amp I would go with the Ember, its much more versatile and can be used with a wider range of headphones.  If you already have a great SS or hybrid and want a more specialized amp then the BH Crack is a great OTL amp for the price.

 

[ppdv]

 
The Ember is not a DAC, the tube section is just the driver section of the amp, similar to the front tube of the BH Crack.  The Aune T1 uses the tube in its DAC section and rolling tubes in it is fun, its was recommended by @mikoss for a friend who didn't want to spend much and its worked out great, she has K7XX and HD-650 and I gave her a few tubes to play with.
I also have a Lyr2 and the tubes there are driver tubes like the Ember.  I have a Bifrost, UD-301, Modi2Uber, Modi, Teac AH-01 for DACs along with the Xonar STX and DG cards in 2 of my systems.
 
If this is your first dedicated headphone amp I would go with the Ember, its much more versatile and can be used with a wider range of headphones.  If you already have a great SS or hybrid and want a more specialized amp then the BH Crack is a great OTL amp for the price.

 
Hi DavidA,
 
Thanks for the clarification, i guess i got carried away by the Aune architecture and thought the ember to be on the same lines as well.
 
I only have the Aune as my current headphone amp. No, i do not have any other SS or Hybrid amp. I will consider 1 between the Ember and BH eventually. BH or ember is something to be built which is something i miss from my teen days where i used to build kits for myself and friends and once i landed in a job havent done any DIY so far and that also tempts me...

 

[DavidA]

   
Hi DavidA,
 
Thanks for the clarification, i guess i got carried away by the Aune architecture and thought the ember to be on the same lines as well.
 
I only have the Aune as my current headphone amp. No, i do not have any other SS or Hybrid amp. I will consider 1 between the Ember and BH eventually. BH or ember is something to be built which is something i miss from my teen days where i used to build kits for myself and friends and once i landed in a job havent done any DIY so far and that also tempts me...

Note that the Ember will have a warranty if you buy it already built, no warranty if you build it your self.
 
After visiting my friend and using her Aune T1, its a great dac/amp for the price.
 
The BH Crack is an OTL amp and really only suited for high impedance headphones like HD-6XX/800, high impedance Beyer's, if you are looking at the BH SEX or Mainline then they will be able to drive almost anything.

 

[ppdv]

  Note that the Ember will have a warranty if you buy it already built, no warranty if you build it your self.
 
After visiting my friend and using her Aune T1, its a great dac/amp for the price.
 
The BH Crack is an OTL amp and really only suited for high impedance headphones like HD-6XX/800, high impedance Beyer's, if you are looking at the BH SEX or Mainline then they will be able to drive almost anything.

Thanks for the clarification DavidA. Clears up a lot of questions in my mind.
Good info.
 
Cheers

 

[Xerber]

 
Agree. I simply do not believe in hating a product before i actually use it very thoroughly.. I do have a good hope that they would serve my listening purpose in a good way for a long time to come ..

They most likely will.
 
Also, don't base your first impression on how the 700's sound right out of the box. As I, and several others, have stated multiple times throughout this thread, the sound of the 700's changes very dramatically in the first 10 - 20 hours (especially in the mids). The first night I tried them, I was initially very disappointed with the HD700's. Despite always being a bit skeptical of burn-in, I had them play some pink noise when I went to bed and tried them again the night after (about 18 hours later). It sounded like a completely different pair of headphones. I couldn't be happier with them.

 

[samandhi]

 
They most likely will.
 
Also, don't base your first impression on how the 700's sound right out of the box. As I, and several others, have stated multiple times throughout this thread, the sound of the 700's changes very dramatically in the first 10 - 20 hours (especially in the mids). The first night I tried them, I was initially very disappointed with the HD700's. Despite always being a bit skeptical of burn-in, I had them play some pink noise when I went to bed and tried them again the night after (about 18 hours later). It sounded like a completely different pair of headphones. I couldn't be happier with them.

This exactly........

 

[Kerouac]

So, I picked up a HD700 in the classifieds today...but, before I bought it, I had auditioned them together with a HD650 and HD800 in a local audio store. Tried all 3 over there on a TEAC HA-501 amp (which I also have at home) and I also brought my DX90/Hugo stack with me...
The HD650 wasn't comfortable on my head and despite all the positive things I had read about them, they just didn't do it for me. The sound seemed muffled compared to the other 2 models.
The HD700 and HD800 were pretty close in sq performance to my ears. Of course the HD800 was the winner, but the gap in sq was much smaller than I would have expected based on their price.
 
When I have it here next week, I'm curious how it will hold up against my PS500 and MDR-Z7

 

[tf10charged]

your reviewer is purrin and lff ? and the guy in innerfidelity? because they are the only 3 that has spurred so much negativity.
 
how come your comment on HD650 is so biased? it is not following the graph at all, i guess you must have listened to it first. 
==========================
As for flaws of the 650's, perhaps it would be people who don't take the time to try them with better amps, or people who find them overly warm/lacking treble energy. Not a problem for myself... these are keepers in every way.
========================
 
and your comment below is really awesome for someone who can read a graph, and nothing else. 

while for hd700, you havent tried right? not surprising. and the word 'ringing' . come on ,all of you haters use the same word when you just blind follow the comment from a few guys. ringing. LMAO
 
and  HD800, why would you mod a $1500??? on the other hand $500 hd700 is beyond resurrection. irony? to each own i guess.
 
 

  My opinion:
There are haters everywhere, I agree. In the case of headphone reviews, there are both haters, and hypers. We're free to read and find reviewers who generally have the same tastes as ourselves, or who give reviews which we can generally agree with. In the case of the 700's, the reviewers who I've found to be in alignment with are mostly unanimous in their verdict. But headphones can also be seen as a technical tool... they are transducers after all, converting electrical signals into sound. 
 
For the sake of what I know to sound true, I find frequency response graphs, and cumulative spectral decay plots to be effective in identifying sound signature "deal breakers"... 
 
HD-650 - lacking sub bass. Has a fairly linear response across most of the mid frequency range. Treble region is perhaps missing some detail information in the 4-5kHz range, but generally fairly smooth and rolled off. Nothing looks to be offensive, and no real spikes to speak of. I personally find the sound signature to match what I see in the graphs on these headphones... what the graph/plots don't show is their ability to scale with gear. Plugged into craptastic gear, they will sound boring... as you upgrade to better gear, these headphones will improve at every step. They are truly superb at scaling with gear. This may seem like something to be taken for granted, but some headphones will sound as good as they ever will regardless of gear. As for flaws of the 650's, perhaps it would be people who don't take the time to try them with better amps, or people who find them overly warm/lacking treble energy. Not a problem for myself... these are keepers in every way.
 
HD-800 - again, a fairly smooth looking response throughout. There is noticeable upper midrange scooping, or perhaps an emphasis on the treble, which in my opinion is tamed with the Anax mods. Much more energy in the treble region in comparison with the 650's, which translates into their revealing nature. These headphones are much more picky than the 650's, in that they are superb at revealing both excellent recordings, or flaws in your source material. I believe the reason why the 800's are so popular is because they stay true to the Sennheiser sound, which to me is the clarity I mentioned in my other post. The upper midrange scooping and/or emphasis on treble could be heard as the headphones lacking warmth. I do believe this is dependent on the source, but I am also a fan of the mod, as I find it removes some of that treble energy, and allows for the mids to come through. I don't find them to be scooped out sounding, but I do find them to be extremely revealing. For good recordings, these headphones are amazing. I would also suggest that both DAC and amp need to be thoughtfully chosen for driving these. They will pick up on any inherent flaws and expose them.
 
HD-700 - Ok, awesome... has some of the sub bass the 650 was lacking, but still generally lacks in comparison with the 800's. Mids are looking fairly even and nicely responsive... oh, wait, here is 1kHz and I'm beginning to scoop. Scoop scoop scoop. Ahhh, ok, no worries... this is just a bit more scooped than the 800's... no wait, it's much more scooped. We have lost a lot of upper midrange detail here. And treble. Pull up... pull up... pull up... JESUS!!! What did you do??? You could have just rolled off nicely like the 650's, but instead, you spiked and created this crazy intense ringing that will surely be a deal breaker for people who want an even keeled treble response. This needs to be fixed.
 
Let's assume the treble spike does become fixed... we are still left with a "huge" lack of information in that upper midrange region... I think this is truly a nail-in-the-coffin deal breaker. I just can't see this ending well... but I am entirely open to whatever can be done. I'm also not a fan of EQ, but maybe it will require some of that as well...

 

[tf10charged]

this id hd700 FR.
what lost?
 
 
vs 
 
hd650.
 
look at 50-1khz.  hd650 can do better there.
 

 
 
 
Quote:

  My opinion:
There are haters everywhere, I agree. In the case of headphone reviews, there are both haters, and hypers. We're free to read and find reviewers who generally have the same tastes as ourselves, or who give reviews which we can generally agree with. In the case of the 700's, the reviewers who I've found to be in alignment with are mostly unanimous in their verdict. But headphones can also be seen as a technical tool... they are transducers after all, converting electrical signals into sound. 
 
For the sake of what I know to sound true, I find frequency response graphs, and cumulative spectral decay plots to be effective in identifying sound signature "deal breakers"... 
 
HD-650 - lacking sub bass. Has a fairly linear response across most of the mid frequency range. Treble region is perhaps missing some detail information in the 4-5kHz range, but generally fairly smooth and rolled off. Nothing looks to be offensive, and no real spikes to speak of. I personally find the sound signature to match what I see in the graphs on these headphones... what the graph/plots don't show is their ability to scale with gear. Plugged into craptastic gear, they will sound boring... as you upgrade to better gear, these headphones will improve at every step. They are truly superb at scaling with gear. This may seem like something to be taken for granted, but some headphones will sound as good as they ever will regardless of gear. As for flaws of the 650's, perhaps it would be people who don't take the time to try them with better amps, or people who find them overly warm/lacking treble energy. Not a problem for myself... these are keepers in every way.
 
HD-800 - again, a fairly smooth looking response throughout. There is noticeable upper midrange scooping, or perhaps an emphasis on the treble, which in my opinion is tamed with the Anax mods. Much more energy in the treble region in comparison with the 650's, which translates into their revealing nature. These headphones are much more picky than the 650's, in that they are superb at revealing both excellent recordings, or flaws in your source material. I believe the reason why the 800's are so popular is because they stay true to the Sennheiser sound, which to me is the clarity I mentioned in my other post. The upper midrange scooping and/or emphasis on treble could be heard as the headphones lacking warmth. I do believe this is dependent on the source, but I am also a fan of the mod, as I find it removes some of that treble energy, and allows for the mids to come through. I don't find them to be scooped out sounding, but I do find them to be extremely revealing. For good recordings, these headphones are amazing. I would also suggest that both DAC and amp need to be thoughtfully chosen for driving these. They will pick up on any inherent flaws and expose them.
 
HD-700 - Ok, awesome... has some of the sub bass the 650 was lacking, but still generally lacks in comparison with the 800's. Mids are looking fairly even and nicely responsive... oh, wait, here is 1kHz and I'm beginning to scoop. Scoop scoop scoop. Ahhh, ok, no worries... this is just a bit more scooped than the 800's... no wait, it's much more scooped. We have lost a lot of upper midrange detail here. And treble. Pull up... pull up... pull up... JESUS!!! What did you do??? You could have just rolled off nicely like the 650's, but instead, you spiked and created this crazy intense ringing that will surely be a deal breaker for people who want an even keeled treble response. This needs to be fixed.
 
Let's assume the treble spike does become fixed... we are still left with a "huge" lack of information in that upper midrange region... I think this is truly a nail-in-the-coffin deal breaker. I just can't see this ending well... but I am entirely open to whatever can be done. I'm also not a fan of EQ, but maybe it will require some of that as well...

 

[Zombie_X]

I'll repeat it again, there is no audible scoop in the mids, despite what the graphs say. These headphones are super warm with enhanced mids. Scooped mids, heh, no sorry but that isn't the case.

 

[donlin]

Somebody who can judge the sound of a headphone purely by looking at a graph without any listening has such a vastly different approach to things that I can't even begin to relate.

 

[tf10charged]

its like visiting california by pulling the map and terrain and altimeter graph. 
 
which, obviously because they are way way more qualify than sennheiser engineers. 
 
i really wonder this. why would anyone looking for hd600/hd650 quality in hd700?
 
its like asking why ferrari cannot ferry 9 person comfortably. but of course from the graph ferrari can do that way better than any buses. 
 

Somebody who can judge the sound of a headphone purely by looking at a graph without any listening has such a vastly different approach to things that I can't even begin to relate.