Sennheiser HD 660S2 thread
Jul 21, 2023 at 1:17 PM Post #4,396 of 6,503
Returns and quick shipping are really the only draw. I'm tired of paying a membership fee to get obviously used or wrong items shipped to me regularly. Its not worth the hassle if the benefits go away.

Yes, with Amazon.de it's so bad that for example with the new Sony Xperia 1 V I made sure to order upon release to avoid getting a 1400€ phone that's been demo-ed a couple of times, reset, and put back in the box. I try to stay away from Amazon whenever I can for this reason.

Indeed @ericpalonen it would be nice if Sennheiser thinks of a way to make their packaging more secure to ensure something is new new. For example the Sony did have a proprietary (for lack of a better word) sticker that cannot be removed without damaging it. With Sennheiser in Europe people have to go to Amazon or Thomann because the official site hardly ever matches the prices found elsewhere.
 
Jul 21, 2023 at 2:56 PM Post #4,397 of 6,503
You didn't like them, and that's fine. This headphone was deliberately tuned with Head-Fi in mind but to assume it is literally the same with a heavier bass response is factually incorrect. The thread covers the differences quite well, and again, we're not asking you to like them, but it was created to give 600 fans that wanted faster transients and more engaging bass (with a smoother top-end) an offering. It has been one of our best-selling offerings this year. There is no mandate to keep all the 600 series models one has collected, nor is there a mandate to avoid EQ. All that said, why get mad about those that DO want more flavors and choices?
Not at all... I tried to be clear in my post that I DO like them, but they are near-interchangeable with the three other HD6-- series headphones...

which again are still really, really good, today, but were phenomenal for their time... which was 21 years ago. So I do feel it is time for Sennheiser to get off the bench and produce a truly new HD6-- series successor that is phenomenal for current times.

I think a lot of people would really love something like that. But disappointingly, the HD660S2 is not it, and honestly, I'm not sure what the point of debating that would be.... The idea of the HD660S2 as a new headphone speaks more to marketing than engineering.

I think I asked you this in another thread, but your job at Sennheiser is to manage influencers, right? You don't work in design or engineering, correct? I'm asking this respectfully, not trying to be confrontational, but to be clear, while your header says "Sennheiser", when you weigh in on something, it's not the same thing as, say, when Rob Watts posts over in a Chord thread, right? Just insomuch as when Rob speaks about the differences between Chord products he's speaking as a creator and engineer, while your job is first and foremost about consumer outreach and creating online buzz about a product, right? Again, not trying to be confrontational, just asking... please fill me in if I've misunderstood your position at Sennheiser. Cheers!
 
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Jul 21, 2023 at 3:36 PM Post #4,398 of 6,503
I do feel it is time for Sennheiser to get off the bench and produce a truly new HD6-- series successor that is phenomenal for current times.
Can't speak for Eric, but IMHO the the HD700 from 2012 was the attempt to break the mold....
HD700.png
https://www.head-fi.org/showcase/sennheiser-hd-700-headphone.13803/reviews?page=2
"Well maybe it’s just me but the HD700s have proved themselves over and over again as one of the most satisfying phones I’ve owned with all types of genres.
I’ve now forfeited most of my headphone collection, Hd580/600s, Grado SR325is, AKG K701s, K501s and the 240DFs, the HD700s filling the gap. Along the way I also purchased a new pair of HD800s but after week even with all their technical superiority they failed to engage me musically so off they went back to the supplier."

I think a lot of people would really love something like that.
Myself and many others received the HD700 with open arms but the community at large was not that receptive, repeating, without probably never having actually heard them, what some perceived as flaws and too radical from their much beloved 600/650s. : (
Oddly only 10% of actually user reviews were negative.
https://www.amazon.com/Sennheiser-HD-700-Discontinued-Manufacturer/product-reviews/B0070U8KSM
But disappointingly, the HD660S2 is not it,
The S2 IMHO is the best performing 600 series to date but the HD700 was the missing link, bringing a lot more to the table.
Personally I'd love to see the HD700 resurrected, an all matte black with carry over tech from the S2 driver development. Give that "other" headphone a run for its money. : )
 
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Jul 21, 2023 at 3:39 PM Post #4,399 of 6,503
If Amazon charge for returns - then the big box will once flourish again.
I think big box stores are gone for good unless they are a pick up depot for online stuff.

Restocking fees have to kick in soon. There are Way too many people that will order four and five similar items with NO intention of keeping all of them. I have seen many people on here state that they will order 3ish headphones with plans to buy maybe one set if they are blown away. If you are a reputable dealer that will earmark returns as open boxes, that is a LOT of money being tossed away.

I wish Amazon would just go through their system and mark the folks who do multiple returns and ding them with fees that will discourage the behaviour.

I place orders, probably ten to twelve times a year for multiple items. I might return one thing a year, two in a bad year.

Maybe they start making the problem people pay their own shipping back?
 
Jul 21, 2023 at 4:01 PM Post #4,400 of 6,503
Can't speak for Eric, but IMHO the the HD700 from 2012 was the attempt to break the mold....
HD700.png
https://www.head-fi.org/showcase/sennheiser-hd-700-headphone.13803/reviews?page=2
"Well maybe it’s just me but the HD700s have proved themselves over and over again as one of the most satisfying phones I’ve owned with all types of genres.
I’ve now forfeited most of my headphone collection, Hd580/600s, Grado SR325is, AKG K701s, K501s and the 240DFs, the HD700s filling the gap. Along the way I also purchased a new pair of HD800s but after week even with all their technical superiority they failed to engage me musically so off they went back to the supplier."


Myself and many other received the HD700 with open arms but the community at large was not that receptive, repeating, without probably never having actually heard them, what some perceived as flaws and too radical from their much beloved 600/650s. : (
Oddly only 10% of actually user reviews were negative.
https://www.amazon.com/Sennheiser-HD-700-Discontinued-Manufacturer/product-reviews/B0070U8KSM

The S2 IMHO is the best performing 600 series to date but the HD700 was the missing link, bringing a lot more to the table.
Personally I'd love to see the HD700 resurrected, an all matte black with carry over tech from the S2 driver development. Give that "other" headphone a run for its money. : )
660s?
 
Jul 21, 2023 at 5:33 PM Post #4,402 of 6,503
i know it is not healthy to play that loud but i find it crazy how loud they can go without any distortion. either the mezes or even the sundaras can get this close
 
Jul 21, 2023 at 6:03 PM Post #4,403 of 6,503
Just pointing out that the number of posters on the NDH-30 thread are very very limited relatively speaking, to the total number of 6-xx headphones sold. I.E. the sample size is small, and haven't flourished with the test of time. I'm concerned that newbies visiting this thread, or other threads take people's opinion as facts. I'm sure that people that love the NDH 30 really do love them. But there is so much more. What is your source? Amp? Dac? What genres of music you listen to. How much experience do you have in terms of listening and comparing to other headphones. If I didn't have experience with HF's I might be tempted to buy NDH 30 based on all the positive reviews, but I know I don't value flat responses.

Anyway, my advice to newer members is take all this talk with a HUGE grain of salt.

Leo

From my point of view, the exact opposite has happened. I have been following that thread (NDH 30) almost from the start. I must say that it is strange to read after 180+ pages of so many users' impressions, that sample size of users is inadequate (!)
It is something else that is very striking and calls for an open-minded interpretation: there is no other similar thread in Head-Fi, not one, where impressions for a headphone are so consistently and unanimous enthusiastic - and long lasting. The percentage of acclaim among real users approaches 95-100%. Opinions do not change after a few weeks or months, as happens with inferior sounding headphones. Any interesting comparisons are not made with, say, 109 or 6## anymore but directly with TOTL headphones. This does not devaluate similarly priced headphones but highlights the true value of a brilliant piece of modern design and technology, priced sensibly (its biggest crime or con).
But enough with words, let the music flow and see (hear) for yourself if possible. (Cable on the Right).
 
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Jul 21, 2023 at 6:03 PM Post #4,404 of 6,503
I think big box stores are gone for good unless they are a pick up depot for online stuff.

Restocking fees have to kick in soon. There are Way too many people that will order four and five similar items with NO intention of keeping all of them. I have seen many people on here state that they will order 3ish headphones with plans to buy maybe one set if they are blown away. If you are a reputable dealer that will earmark returns as open boxes, that is a LOT of money being tossed away.

I wish Amazon would just go through their system and mark the folks who do multiple returns and ding them with fees that will discourage the behaviour.

I place orders, probably ten to twelve times a year for multiple items. I might return one thing a year, two in a bad year.

Maybe they start making the problem people pay their own shipping back?
I agree, big box stores are on their way out as vendors of personal audiophile gear like headphones, IEMs, DAC/amps, etc. You can still find some stuff (notably Sony and Sennheiser offerings) at Best Buy, via their Magnolia store-within-a-store. But mostly it's now down to specialty audiophile shops with an online presence, and the massive online shopping sites.

People who abuse the return policy at the few online specialty audiophile shops that offer no restocking fees will get dinged, and in some cases, have their return privileges revoked entirely.

But that is almost moot, because the majority of specialty audiophile outlets already have mandatory restocking fees in effect to combat the "try five keep one" crowd... And I agree that is a good thing, because stores like that can't take the hit... They are already fighting for survival because giant online sellers are slowly forcing them out of business, and indeed, have already forced out many.

All that said, I have a different take on the buy-five-keep-one people who buy from those massive online shopping sites: If the headphone is shipped and sold by said massive online site, it's just the cost of the massive online shopping site doing business.

The massive online shopping site forced out all the local stores where someone could go in and try on the five different headphones before they bought one. So the market now has a need... As it turns out, a really basic one- the need to audition before one buys. And where the market has a need, the consumer will find a solution... in this case the buy-five-keep-one crowd.

It's certainly not hurting the bottom line of these massive sellers, and hey, discounted open box stuff for the rest of us. I'm not weeping for any company worth trillions that was built on the bones of countless mom-and-pop brick-and-mortar shops.
 
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Jul 21, 2023 at 6:53 PM Post #4,405 of 6,503
It's certainly not hurting the bottom line of these massive sellers, and hey, discounted open box stuff for the rest of us. I'm not weeping for any company worth trillions that was built on the bones of countless mom-and-pop brick-and-mortar shops.
A lot of animosity for Amazon. So you also dislike Walmart, the king of killing mom and pops?
Amazon pays their workers a Lot more than Walmart does.

These companies are successful because most of us consumers are incredibly cheap. We are the ones shopping at Wal-Mart/Amazon enmasse. You can't blame them.

It is like blaming China for taking all our manufacturing jobs. They didn't! Our rich-prick millionaires and billionaires (American, Canadian, European, etc.) decided they didn't want to pay a living wage to employees and spent decades moving the vast majority of manufacturing to Asia. And it is Never coming back.

To the original point, whether you do it to Shane's Audio or Amazon, it's still sleazy. But the pendulum will swing back. Unfortunately we may then all pay the price for that behaviour. IE. No more free returns at all, at a minimum.
 
Jul 21, 2023 at 7:43 PM Post #4,406 of 6,503
A lot of animosity for Amazon. So you also dislike Walmart, the king of killing mom and pops?
Amazon pays their workers a Lot more than Walmart does.

These companies are successful because most of us consumers are incredibly cheap. We are the ones shopping at Wal-Mart/Amazon enmasse. You can't blame them.

It is like blaming China for taking all our manufacturing jobs. They didn't! Our rich-prick millionaires and billionaires (American, Canadian, European, etc.) decided they didn't want to pay a living wage to employees and spent decades moving the vast majority of manufacturing to Asia. And it is Never coming back.

To the original point, whether you do it to Shane's Audio or Amazon, it's still sleazy. But the pendulum will swing back. Unfortunately we may then all pay the price for that behaviour. IE. No more free returns at all, at a minimum.
Lot of assumptions. I have no issue with Amazon. But as I said, if a market expresses needs, consumers will create solutions... return policy loopholes notwithstanding.

Amazon has managed to take out the big box and mom-and-pop stores by reducing operating costs. Sometimes reducing one set of operating costs creates or increases another. The trick is to come out ahead in that calculation, and Amazon has done very well with that math.

Rather than get into the myriad varying costs and savings, let's just consider the audition process...

Brick and mortar stores must pay rent, pay for a demo headphone, and most costly, pay for an employee to help you audition headphones. The result is you get exactly what you're looking for, but it is a costly sale for the brick and mortar store.

Amazon builds warehouses on cheap land, and while they employ a large infrastructure of packers, drivers, etc etc, none those employees can help a customer audition a headphone, and furthermore, the cost of those employees is far less than that brick-and-mortar store's employee, when transposed against the sale of a single headphone. The result is you buy essentially blind, and it is a very cheap sale for Amazon to make.

Let's also not forget the cost that Amazon pays for the headphone vs a brick and mortar store. Amazon might buy 30,000 headphones. They enjoy a bulk pricing on their units that mom-and-pop stores will never be able to get ordering, say, 50 pieces.

What it comes down to is that Amazon still comes out well ahead, even if people "abuse" their return policy. And I write "abuse" in quotation marks because let's be honest here... Amazon isn't run by dummies. They understand that there are products people need to try out before buying. They understand that this is something they can't really offer on everything (they do actually offer try-before-buying option for clothing). Bottom line, the "try-five-keep-one" people have been built into whatever yearly profit margin for headphone sales Amazon is comfortable with. Like I said... it's the cost of doing business.

And again, Amazon has made trillions doing it, and eradicated most of their competition. What they are comfortable giving up has worked out very well for them. Why on earth would you want them to further reduce their costs at the expense of the buying experience? You realize if they had instituted the return fees you are advocating, they would not have been able to capture the market share from the brick and mortar stores in the first place, and wouldn't be where they are now, right?
 
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Jul 21, 2023 at 7:54 PM Post #4,407 of 6,503
People defending corporations from their anti consumer behaviors (bad policy or pricing or otherwise) confuse me.
 
Jul 21, 2023 at 7:56 PM Post #4,408 of 6,503
Lot of assumptions. I have no issue with Amazon. But as I said, if a market expresses needs, consumers will create solutions... return policy loopholes notwithstanding.

Amazon has managed to take out the big box and mom-and-pop stores by reducing operating costs. Sometimes reducing one set of operating costs creates or increases another. The trick is to come out ahead in that calculation, and Amazon has done very well with that math.

Rather than get into the myriad varying costs and savings, let's just consider the audition process...

Brick and mortar stores must pay rent, pay for a demo headphone, and most costly, pay for an employee to help you audition headphones. The result is you get exactly what you're looking for, but it is a costly sale for the brick and mortar store.

Amazon builds warehouses on cheap land, and while they employ a large infrastructure of packers, drivers, etc etc, none those employees do not help a customer audition a headphone, and the cost of those employees is far less when transposed against the sale of a single headphone. The result is you buy essentially blind, and it is a very cheap sale for Amazon to make.

Let's also not forget the cost that Amazon pays for the headphone vs a brick and mortar store. Amazon might buy 30,000 headphones. They enjoy a bulk pricing on their units that mom-and-pop stores will never be able to get ordering, say, 50 pieces.

What it comes down to is that Amazon still comes out well ahead, even if people "abuse" their return policy. And I write that quotation marks, because let's be honest here... Amazon isn't run by dummies. They understand that there are products people need to try out before buying. They understand that this is something they can't really offer on everything (they do actually offer try-before-buying option for clothing). Bottom line, the year-end profit margin for headphone sales that they are comfortable with has those "try-five-keep-one" people built into it. Like I said... it's the cost of doing business.

And again, they have made trillions doing it, and eradicated most of their competition. Why on earth would you want them to further reduce their costs at the expense of the buying experience? You realize if they had instituted the return fees you are advocating, they would not have been able to capture the market share from the brick and mortar stores in the first place, and wouldn't be where they are now, right?
All online stores had to build up the trust of the public and that's why everybody had to have very generous return policies in the first 5, 10, 15 years. I expect that to change as the years go on.

I rarely use Amazon.com and usually use Amazon.ca. A Lot of what I buy on there is not sold by Amazon itself. Companies, I assume, pay storage fees, shipping fee's and a piece of the sale to Amazon. Most goods I order say shipped by Amazon and sold by XYZ company.

Even if a company is getting a 40 to 50 percent margin (I would think that would be Huge in headphones), that goes down pretty quick if you are paying for shipping both ways and using open box discounting to move the product afterwards.

I ran my own mom and pop business for fourteen years and was put under by a mix of online and big box stores. It is a cold/cruel world out there. :smile:
 
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Jul 21, 2023 at 7:59 PM Post #4,409 of 6,503
People defending corporations from their anti consumer behaviors (bad policy or pricing or otherwise) confuse me.
Sleazy is sleazy, regardless of circumstance.
 
Jul 21, 2023 at 8:14 PM Post #4,410 of 6,503
All online stores had to build up the trust of the public and that's why everybody had to have very generous return policies in the first 5, 10, 15 years. I expect that to change as the years go on.

I rarely use Amazon.com and usually use Amazon.ca. A Lot of what I buy on there is not sold by Amazon itself. Companies, I assume, pay storage fees, shipping fee's and a piece of the sale to Amazon. Most goods I order say shipped by Amazon and sold by XYZ company.

Even if a company is getting a 40 to 50 percent margin (I would think that would be Huge in headphones), that goes down pretty quick if you are paying for shipping both ways and using open box discounting to move the product afterwards.

I ran my own mom and pop business for fourteen years and was put under by a mix of online and big box stores. It is a cold/cruel world out there. :smile:
The worst is when one gleans the advice, counsel, experience of a mom & pop seller only to make the purchase with a ‘big box’ / ‘online’ operator … 😒
 

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