[wahsmoh]

I felt that the HD650 scales to amazing heights when paired with some really nice gear. I heard it at CanJam 2015 for maybe the third or fourth time at Vinni Rossi's LIO station. I will tell you that the LIO is like an analog bass boost with the crazy power supply it has.
 
The HD650 really told an honest tale of how the source sounded. The LIO is full of bass, and also full of digital glare. The HD650 had incredible bass with the LIO, but shrieky and bright highs like a poor HD700. I will definitely say that it was the DAC component of the LIO that had the digital glare. The LIO was almost a success for me but the HD650(which isn't a bright headphone) showed the LIO's weakness.
 
My only gripe with the HD650 was the clamping force, small earcups (doesn't envelop my ears like Alpha pads), and of course doesn't image like the HD800 or TOTL planars. Still it is one of the best bargains in the Head-fi world and yet some people still prefer it over some of the TOTL headphones I mentioned. It has a very inviting sound and may not be the end all be all of transparency but you won't generally find it hurting your ears (until I heard the LIO)

 

[OJNeg]

  Stan, re: HD600 and scaling.  While I agree 100% about 'garbage in. garbage out' being an absolute audio truth, your point about HD600's not scaling leaves me confused.  If x-component is neutral and sounds better as you improve components down the chain, isn't this the definition of 'scaling'?  I've always believed this to be so, I'm curious as to your definition.  Perhaps you can provide an example of a component that does scale well.  Or is it that you don't believe in the concept of 'scaling' at all?  Again, I'm just curious, it's all opinion.  Obviously, mine is that the HD600 is one of the all-time great audio components that rewards its users when upgrading and is the epitome of a component that scales magnificently.  

 
The overriding issue isn't that the HD600 "scales". They're saying that there's nothing to "scale to", i.e. the O2 is already the pinnacle of amplifier design and anything after that is either snake oil, "euphonic coloration" or placebo effect

 
Again, there's not much about this argument relevant to the HD600 so it belongs mostly in Sound Science purgatory

 

[StanD]

How is the case of subharmonics completely different; it's exactly the same thing? One hears the frequencies beyond his physical limit do to their subharrmonics. The brain, then, takes that info and translates it into higher frequencies being present in one's auditory view, if you will. Same comment stated differently. I'm afraid this still comes down to you trying to debate semantics. Internet scientists. Sad, really.

Read carefully and you can see the differences in your statements about subharmonics, I've pointed it put, carefully. You can also stop being rude, it won't hurt you to be polite.

 

[StanD]

   
The overriding issue isn't that the HD600 "scales". They're saying that there's nothing to "scale to", i.e. the O2 is already the pinnacle of amplifier design and anything after that is either snake oil, "euphonic coloration" or placebo effect

 
Again, there's not much about this argument relevant to the HD600 so it belongs mostly in Sound Science purgatory

Im saying that using a more powerful amp than necessary for headroom or one with distortion levels lower that human perception cannot possibly improve the results. Hence my reference to GIGO as a means of determining a possible source of difference. Sennheiser specs the HD600 THD at "less than or equal to 0.1%" which is already much worse than most quality modern amps. I think a lot of the scaling business is well meaning people convinced my placebo or expectation bias/suggestion by others

 

[Midgetguy]

  I felt that the HD650 scales to amazing heights when paired with some really nice gear. I heard it at CanJam 2015 for maybe the third or fourth time at Vinni Rossi's LIO station. I will tell you that the LIO is like an analog bass boost with the crazy power supply it has.
 
The HD650 really told an honest tale of how the source sounded. The LIO is full of bass, and also full of digital glare. The HD650 had incredible bass with the LIO, but shrieky and bright highs like a poor HD700. I will definitely say that it was the DAC component of the LIO that had the digital glare. The LIO was almost a success for me but the HD650(which isn't a bright headphone) showed the LIO's weakness.
 
My only gripe with the HD650 was the clamping force, small earcups (doesn't envelop my ears like Alpha pads), and of course doesn't image like the HD800 or TOTL planars. Still it is one of the best bargains in the Head-fi world and yet some people still prefer it over some of the TOTL headphones I mentioned. It has a very inviting sound and may not be the end all be all of transparency but you won't generally find it hurting your ears (until I heard the LIO)

Frankly, both the HD600 and HD650 are great bargains. I run my HD600 from a Topping TP30mkII/D20 stack and my bro has an HD650 through a Keces DAC and a Little Dot MkIV. Listened to both, both sound fantastic. The HD600 is a little more to my preference, but they're both great cans.

 

[OJNeg]

  Im saying that using a more powerful amp than necessary for headroom or one with distortion levels lower that human perception cannot possibly improve the results. Hence my reference to GIGO as a means of determining a possible source of difference. Sennheiser specs the HD600 THD at "less than or equal to 0.1%" which is already much worse than most quality modern amps. I think a lot of the scaling business is well meaning people convinced my placebo or expectation bias/suggestion by others

 
And I'm saying (or rather repeating at this point) that power quantity has nothing to do with it. That is a non sequitur. It goes back to power quality, which is determined by a lot of things. Namely specific parts, topology, power supply, etc. in my experience. You're focusing on a THD spec which has little to do with perceived SQ.
 
I love when people play the placebo or expectation bias card....how does that explain when people don't expect to hear a difference but do?

Must be magic of course, nothing to do with the actual design behind the amplifiers...

.

 

[StanD]

   
And I'm saying (or rather repeating at this point) that power quantity has nothing to do with it. That is a non sequitur. It goes back to power quality, which is determined by a lot of things. Namely specific parts, topology, power supply, etc. in my experience. You're focusing on a THD spec which has little to do with perceived SQ.
 
I love when people play the placebo or expectation bias card....how does that explain when people don't expect to hear a difference but do?

Must be magic of course, nothing to do with the actual design behind the amplifiers...

.

I'm the first to say that power in excess of what is required by headroom for the headphones in use does nothing for one. If you've read through my posts in general I also point out that the JDD for human perception of distortion is much higher for humans than most quality modern amps produce. Try doing careful A/B switching of quality amps that are carefully loudness matched (volume controls). Of course these amps have to be able to drive the headphones in use (sensitivity/power and impedance). It's an eye opening experience. No magic.

 

[kman1211]

  I'm the first to say that power in excess of what is required by headroom for the headphones in use does nothing for one. If you've read through my posts in general I also point out that the JDD for human perception of distortion is much higher for humans than most quality modern amps produce. Try doing careful A/B switching of quality amps that are carefully loudness matched (volume controls). Of course these amps have to be able to drive the headphones in use (sensitivity/power and impedance). It's an eye opening experience. No magic.

What amps have you done this test with? 

 

[StanD]

  What amps have you done this test with? 

Plenty. Just to mention a few:
Woo WA5 and others.
Schiit Asgard 2
Schitt Magni
Schiit Vali
Burson Soloist
Just a few, I've borrowed amps from friends for weeks at a time so the combinations varied. It was an interesting experience. I compared the Woo WA5 with the Asgard 2 and found the Asgard 2 pleased me at a fraction of the cost. The Woo was very clean.

 

[kman1211]

  Plenty. Just to mention a few:
Woo WA22 and others.
Schiit Asgard 2
Schitt Magni
Schiit Vali
Burson Soloist
Just a few, I've borrowed amps from friends for weeks at a time so the combinations varied. It was an interesting experience. I compared the Woo with the Asgard 2 and found the Asgard 2 pleased me at a fraction of the cost. The Woo was very clean.

So there was some difference then? What DAC(s) did you use? My experience with Schiit amps compared to Woo amps is that I found Woo amps a bit smoother and cleaner overall when directly compared; longer-term listening I found the Woo's were more pleasing to my ears. 

 

[James-uk]

I used to believe I could hear a difference between lossy and lossless, amps / dacs and even cables ! I was then challenged to do blind tests to prove to myself those differences existed. Of course I took the challenge , I could definately hear a difference! I am an audiophile and my ears are amazing, I am not stupid and I know what I hear! I've spent thousands of pounds getting the best quality stuff money can buy, my ears are excellent and I know what to listen out for , you guys that listen to cheap gear and MP3s, you are deaf and don't care about the music .............

Fails blind tests .feels stupid , embarrassed ,ashamed ........
But also liberated !!!!!!! It's the greatest feeling ever when you realise all this crap about amps and dacs / high res is just BS and you can save SO much money and instead spend it on more cans and more holidays / nicer car/ more days out with the family and more beer which incidentally DOES make the music sound way better !

The HD600 is a great headphone at a reasonable price , let's not put new members off buying it by telling them they need to spend 3 x the price to 'make them shine' etc. let's try and keep it real.

 

[StanD]

  So there was some difference then? What DAC(s) did you use? My experience with Schiit amps compared to Woo amps is that I found Woo amps a bit smoother and cleaner overall when directly compared; longer-term listening I found the Woo's were more pleasing to my ears. 

Some of the Woo Amps have a bit of THD, enough to hear at time, however, I prefer transparent or no coloration. I liked the WA5 but not the WA22. I find that it's easier to find a low noise transparent SS amp and at a lower price. A good pure tube amp that can drive low impedance cans, cleanly, has an expensive output transformer. I prefer the Schiit Asgard 2, 1W of clean low impedance power is all that I need, it can also drive and HD600 with excellence.

 

[betula]

I used to believe I could hear a difference between lossy and lossless, amps / dacs and even cables ! I was then challenged to do blind tests to prove to myself those differences existed. Of course I took the challenge , I could definately hear a difference! I am an audiophile and my ears are amazing, I am not stupid and I know what I hear! I've spent thousands of pounds getting the best quality stuff money can buy, my ears are excellent and I know what to listen out for , you guys that listen to cheap gear and MP3s, you are deaf and don't care about the music .............

Fails blind tests .feels stupid , embarrassed ,ashamed ........
But also liberated !!!!!!! It's the greatest feeling ever when you realise all this crap about amps and dacs / high res is just BS and you can save SO much money and instead spend it on more cans and more holidays / nicer car/ more days out with the family and more beer which incidentally DOES make the music sound way better !

The HD600 is a great headphone at a reasonable price , let's not put new members off buying it by telling them they need to spend 3 x the price to 'make them shine' etc. let's try and keep it real.

Basically I think you are right... For a reasonable amount of money one can buy great sq.... Let's say £5-800 ($700-1200) For a source-amp-hp setup..
Anything over this is a slight change... (Compared to the investment.)

 

[kman1211]

  Some of the Woo Amps have a bit of THD, enough to hear at time, however, I prefer transparent or no coloration. I liked the WA5 but not the WA22. I find that it's easier to find a low noise transparent SS amp and at a lower price. A good pure tube amp that can drive low impedance cans, cleanly, has an expensive output transformer. I prefer the Schiit Asgard 2, 1W of clean low impedance power is all that I need, it can also drive and HD600 with excellence.

I have come across that. I personally find differences are often exaggerated but I have found I can hear subtle differences when doing blind tests, but it does make me realize I sometimes exaggerate the differences. I personally have a bit of a problem with the HD 600, it's not quite clean enough for my tastes, I find the HD 650 slightly cleaner but still not quite clean enough. After listening to headphones such as the LCD-2/3, HD 800, R10, various electrostats, etc. for extended amounts of time, I realized I will have to go another level headphone wise to sate my clarity and refinement tastes. I'm too picky about the subtle details in audio.

 

[betula]

  I have come across that. I personally find differences are often exaggerated but I have found I can hear subtle differences when doing blind tests, but it does make me realize I sometimes exaggerate the differences. I personally have a bit of a problem with the HD 600, it's not quite clean enough for my tastes, I find the HD 650 slightly cleaner but still not quite clean enough. After listening to headphones such as the LCD-2/3, HD 800, R10, various electrostats, etc. for extended amounts of time, I realized I will have to go another level headphone wise to sate my clarity and refinement tastes. I'm too picky about the subtle details in audio.

Certainly, Sir...
 But you seem forgot to mention, LCD-2/3, HD800 are 5-6 times more expensive than the HD600s...