[438555]

I use the RP-250F in a bedroom and am enthralled. (Though there are obviously issues with room acoustics in such a small space, but it's not a big deal for me right now.)

With almost all recordings, I hear all the bass. (But from my listening position, I don't get the full experience and have to move back further to hear and feel the deepest bass.)

I have no desire to bother with a sub, especially since I will upgrade to even better speakers soon enough.

How close do you plan on listening? Depending on the room and listening position, you may want to consider one of their smaller towers.

(Mine extend to 35 Hz in the specs, but can go deeper; it just rolls off past that point. I could always fill in that gap somewhat with EQ, but most recordings don't have such deep bass.)

The room where everything is located is the living/dining room. About 24'Lx12'Wx8'H I might be sitting about in the midpoint of the room typically, but also like to step out into the kitchen and still hear/feel the music.

 

[Music Alchemist]

The room where everything is located is the living/dining room. About 24'Lx12'Wx8'H I might be sitting about in the midpoint of the room typically, but also like to step out into the kitchen and still hear/feel the music.

Ah, that's plenty of space for the larger towers, then.

 

[438555]

There are a few variables to consider. While those speakers are rated to 32Hz they won't pressurize the listening space the way a sub or subs will, which is why using subs in a music system can add that last bit of "live should" quality to a home system. Many of the quality subs now on the market have a line-level crossover built in, and you can run SE cables from Saga > Sub, and then the resulting signal to the Vidar, with the very low frequencies siphoned off to the sub. The advantages to this configuration are the Vidar does not have to work as hard since bass frequencies require the most power; and you are relieving the speakers of having to try and reproduce the lowest bass frequencies, this frees them from a task to which they are only marginally suited, and will often result in cleaner upper bass/lower mid frequency reproduction.

Disclaimer: I am a long-time fan and user of subwoofers in a music-only 2 channel system.

On the subs I'm looking at, many only have a line in, not out. The ones with speaker level in/out would appear to enable the crossover not to pass the low frequencies on to the passive speakers. Can you give an example of a sub that has line level in/out?

Thanks!

Dana

 

[US Blues]

On the subs I'm looking at, many only have a line in, not out. The ones with speaker level in/out would appear to enable the crossover not to pass the low frequencies on to the passive speakers. Can you give an example of a sub that has line level in/out?

Thanks!

Dana

One example are the JL Audio "E series" subs that I use. I don't use the crossover in the manner I described, since I run balanced XLR's from Yggy > Freya > Vidar, and they only have SE input and output. Yet these subs can be configured as I described. I am confident some research would turn up other subs with this type of crossover configuration, in a variety of price and performance points.

 

[Alcophone]

On the subs I'm looking at, many only have a line in, not out. The ones with speaker level in/out would appear to enable the crossover not to pass the low frequencies on to the passive speakers. Can you give an example of a sub that has line level in/out?

Thanks!

Dana

Check out Rhythmik Audio, the A370PEQ amp option has a high pass filter RCA out (and RCA in as well as high level in). Weirdly, though, the crossover frequency for the high pass out is fixed at 80 Hz instead of whatever the other crossover settings are set to.

 

[438555]

Ah, that's plenty of space for the larger towers, then.

Is there any guide with calculations (at least based on empirical data) as to size/wattage of speakers/amp. Here, I'm just going on my old amp was a 105x2 integrated JVC amp with 89 dB 140 W speakers. The Saga/Vidar combo with those speakers doesn't put out the same SPL as the Saga doesn't add any gain (but has much lower distortion than the JVC). Of course if I use my Lyr 2 as the preamp, then I can get all the gain I could want, just not the input switching and remote. And I really didn't want to go down the "everything balanced" rabbit hole.
So I figure getting better/bigger/more sensitive speakers would get me the range I want. The Klipsch RP series seemed to be a good choice with regard to sensitivity. I also am considering the Emotiva T2, which have lower nominal sensitivity, but would take advantage of the Vidar being able to double wattage at their 4 Ohm nominal impedance.
So some combination of sensitive speakers with or without a sub, and options on how to make the connections...

 

[Music Alchemist]

Is there any guide with calculations (at least based on empirical data) as to size/wattage of speakers/amp. Here, I'm just going on my old amp was a 105x2 integrated JVC amp with 89 dB 140 W speakers. The Saga/Vidar combo with those speakers doesn't put out the same SPL as the Saga doesn't add any gain (but has much lower distortion than the JVC). Of course if I use my Lyr 2 as the preamp, then I can get all the gain I could want, just not the input switching and remote. And I really didn't want to go down the "everything balanced" rabbit hole.
So I figure getting better/bigger/more sensitive speakers would get me the range I want. The Klipsch RP series seemed to be a good choice with regard to sensitivity. I also am considering the Emotiva T2, which have lower nominal sensitivity, but would take advantage of the Vidar being able to double wattage at their 4 Ohm nominal impedance.
So some combination of sensitive speakers with or without a sub, and options on how to make the connections...

I'll tell you this: My Behringer KM750 power amp (paired with the Schiit SYS passive preamp) can make the RP-250F very loud throughout the house. (And I live in a large house.) I'm too afraid to crank the volume to maximum because it gets so loud. (I only listen in my bedroom, though.) It is class AB (like the Vidar) and can output up to 200 watts at 8 ohms (twice as much as the Vidar), yet only costs $150. Not sure how much better the Vidar sounds.

I considered replacing my towers with the Emotiva Airmotiv T1, but decided to focus on major upgrades instead.

 

[rlow]

Is there any guide with calculations (at least based on empirical data) as to size/wattage of speakers/amp. Here, I'm just going on my old amp was a 105x2 integrated JVC amp with 89 dB 140 W speakers. The Saga/Vidar combo with those speakers doesn't put out the same SPL as the Saga doesn't add any gain (but has much lower distortion than the JVC). Of course if I use my Lyr 2 as the preamp, then I can get all the gain I could want, just not the input switching and remote. And I really didn't want to go down the "everything balanced" rabbit hole.
So I figure getting better/bigger/more sensitive speakers would get me the range I want. The Klipsch RP series seemed to be a good choice with regard to sensitivity. I also am considering the Emotiva T2, which have lower nominal sensitivity, but would take advantage of the Vidar being able to double wattage at their 4 Ohm nominal impedance.
So some combination of sensitive speakers with or without a sub, and options on how to make the connections...

89dB sensitivity speakers should be able to be driven very loud by Saga + Vidar. However Saga has no gain as you've said, so what may be happening here is your source may be the problem. It may be outputting too low a voltage which Saga is unable to add on to. Your old amp likely had more gain, although at a higher distortion. Lyr in high gain will boost that signal significantly (up to 16.9dB higher according to the specs, which is a lot) which means a low source signal isn't an issue.

 

[438555]

89dB sensitivity speakers should be able to be driven very loud by Saga + Vidar. However Saga has no gain as you've said, so what may be happening here is your source may be the problem. It may be outputting too low a voltage which Saga is unable to add on to. Your old amp likely had more gain, although at a higher distortion. Lyr in high gain will boost that signal significantly (up to 16.9dB higher according to the specs, which is a lot) which means a low source signal isn't an issue.

The Bifrost multibit is the source I used for the comparisons. Either fed by a Mac mini with USB or optical, or a Sony CD player with coaxial.
From the specs that has 2V full output.
I have also tried running the Saga into the Lyr2 to take advantage of its gain, while still getting the remote volume/input switching of Saga
This makes it more of a pain with my current sub, which only has a single LFE input.

 

[rlow]

The Bifrost multibit is the source I used for the comparisons. Either fed by a Mac mini with USB or optical, or a Sony CD player with coaxial.
From the specs that has 2V full output.
I have also tried running the Saga into the Lyr2 to take advantage of its gain, while still getting the remote volume/input switching of Saga
This makes it more of a pain with my current sub, which only has a single LFE input.

Interesting. Your 89dB rated speakers may in fact be somewhat less than their rating, which is fairly typical. I’m thinking as well that Freya tube gain mode could get you the extra gain even through the SE outs if you’re interested...although I would have that verified first. It’s a gain of 5 vs. 7 from the Lyr 2 high gain.

 

[438555]

Interesting. Your 89dB rated speakers may in fact be somewhat less than their rating, which is fairly typical. I’m thinking as well that Freya tube gain mode could get you the extra gain even through the SE outs if you’re interested...although I would have that verified first. It’s a gain of 5 vs. 7 from the Lyr 2 high gain.

Yeah I considered that, as well as using Freya and two Vidars. But I figure at this point, the KLH 900B speakers I got from Best Buy in 1996 are probably the limiting factor here. The 89 dB spec was something found online somewhere, not something I measured, and I don’t have any of the paperwork/manual from when I bought them 20 years ago. So the 89 dB figure could be quite a bit off of reality.

If the 98 dB of the RP280F is reality, I should get quite a bit more top end, even with no gain.

Thanks to everyone for the input! I think I will save up for the klipsch speakers first and then see what to do about the sub after I see how that sounds.

Dana

 

[rlow]

Yeah I considered that, as well as using Freya and two Vidars. But I figure at this point, the KLH 900B speakers I got from Best Buy in 1996 are probably the limiting factor here. The 89 dB spec was something found online somewhere, not something I measured, and I don’t have any of the paperwork/manual from when I bought them 20 years ago. So the 89 dB figure could be quite a bit off of reality.

If the 98 dB of the RP280F is reality, I should get quite a bit more top end, even with no gain.

Thanks to everyone for the input! I think I will save up for the klipsch speakers first and then see what to do about the sub after I see how that sounds.

Dana

You can use 1 Vidar with Freya still and get the extra gain I believe from tube mode.

However, all that said, the Klipsch upgrade should be a significant increase in volume regardless. If your old speakers are actually 10db lower sensitivity than the Klipsh, they should sound twice as loud. Good idea as well to wait before going into a sub. Best of luck, and let us know how things go.

 

[438555]

Interesting. Your 89dB rated speakers may in fact be somewhat less than their rating, which is fairly typical. I’m thinking as well that Freya tube gain mode could get you the extra gain even through the SE outs if you’re interested...although I would have that verified first. It’s a gain of 5 vs. 7 from the Lyr 2 high gain.

One other thing that wasn’t clear to me is whether the Lyr 2 specs on gain are correct on the specs page, or in the manual. The specs say 1 and 7, but the manual says 1.5 and 10. And do those refer equally to the HP out and preouts?
http://www.schiit.com/public/upload/PDF/lyr_2_manual_1_4.pdf

 

[D2Girls]

@Music Alchemist what major upgrades you getting?

 

[Music Alchemist]

@Music Alchemist what major upgrades you getting?

I have all sorts of components planned, but as far as speakers go, I want the Tekton PMD Studio Monitor and Tekton Ulfberht. That was already covered earlier in the thread, though.