[superjawes]

To the vinyl discussion, I can appreciate the technology, but I was raised on convenience, and I love being able to listen to anything I discover immediately. Out with the CDs and in with the completely digital formats! (And Spotify is awesome.)

 

[StanD]

  A lot of people do not like digital attenuation, for reasons of quantization.

 
 

  Well,  I use it all the time, and never heard any sonic impact, as it should, so it's fine in my book 

When you digitally scale the range of the signal to a smaller range of numbers to lessen the volume you will have less steps of resolution for the complete dynamics of the music, hence quantization kicks becomes a factor, not a good thing. You are also, most likely, bringing the loudest attenuated signal closer to the noise floor.
A poteniometer is analog, hence continuous, no steps, no quantization. This is why most people keep their digital volume cranked up all the way and control volume at the amp using a potentiometer or stepped attenuator (resistors).

 

[madwolfa]

 
When you digitally scale the range of the signal to a smaller range of numbers to lessen the volume you will have less steps of resolution for the complete dynamics of the music, hence quantization kicks becomes a factor, not a good thing. You are also, most likely, bringing the loudest attenuated signal closer to the noise floor.

 
But with 24 bit output and Foobar2000's 64 bit internal DSP it's probably a moot.

 

[Rudiger]

The big reason to buy a Bifrost over Modi is upgrade ability. (...)

However...Modi is also WAY cheaper than Bifrost, and it may be the only DAC you ever need. If you want USB and optical, two Modis costs less than a vanilla Bifrost (which does not have USB).
(...)

You could even say that Modi is cheaper than the Bifrost uber or USB upgrade

 

[StanD]

   
But with 24 bit output and Foobar2000's 64 bit internal DSP it's probably a moot.

Nope. If the numbers are scaled such that the loudest is represented by, lets say 8192, that is how many steps of resolution you will have, lower is as you can see even worse. While controlling the volume with an analog potentiometer there is no such quantization (steps of resolution), 
Lets say that the noise level is 1 bit (for illustration) you will also be 8192 steps above the noise level as apposed to 24 bits above. In the case of a potentiometer you scale the noise of the source as well as the signal.

 

[madwolfa]

  Nope. If the numbers are scaled such that the loudest is represented by, lets say 8192, that is how many steps of resolution you will have, lower is as you can see even worse. While controlling the volume with an analog potentiometer there is no such quantization (steps of resolution), 
Lets say that the noise level is 1 bit (for illustration) you will also be 8192 steps above the noise level as apposed to 24 bits above. In the case of a potentiometer you scale the noise of the source as well as the signal.

 

The CD format offers 16 bit which means a dynamic range of 96 dB and distortions which cannot be lower than 0,0016%. A 24 bit signal offers a dynamic range of 144 dB with theoretical minimum distortions at 0,00001%. This is not possible to achieve in real life. The best today AD converters offer dynamic ranges from 120 dB with distortion figures about –110 dB THD. Lots of losses have to be faced during recording, editing, mixing … Digital attenuation is done by shifting the signal from MSB (Most-Significant-Bit) in direction LSB (Least-Significant-Bit). Shifting a complete bit in LSB direction (and replacing it with a 0) means 6 dB attenuation.
 
When a 16 bit CD signal is input to a 24 bit DA converter, this signal may be attenuated by 6 dB x 8 Bit = 48 dB = factor 200:1 WITHOUT changing anything from the original data. We learned from the above that also a real 24 bit signal carries a maximum of 20 “senseful” bits - in practice there are no more than 18 bits. So, also a 24 bit signal may be attenuated by a minimum of 6 dB x 4 Bit = 24 dB = factor 35:1 WITHOUT doing any harm to the original data. And– for our opinion - digital attenuation is the best what can happen to a signal (except not being attenuated). Of course provisions should be made to adapt different working levels in the audio chain.

 
"About digital volume control..."
http://www.lake-people.de/faqs.html

 

[StanD]

   
 
"About digital volume control..."
http://www.lake-people.de/faqs.html

Much of the begining blurb has little bearing on the issue. I haven't the time to do the math right now, but my gut instincts don't like putting a complex signal through a limited range of quantization.

 

[madwolfa]

  Much of the begining blurb has little bearing on the issue. I haven't the time to do the math right now, but my gut instincts don't like putting a complex signal through a limited range of quantization.

 
What we like and don't like has nothing to do with objective reality, you know that better than anyone else. 

 
PS: I don't like it either, hence my digital volume controls are at 100% all the time. But I tend to think that's rather pleasing my OCD.

 

[StanD]

   
What we like and don't like has nothing to do with objective reality, you know that better than anyone else. 

 
PS: I don't like it too, hence my digital volume controls are at 100% all the time. But I tend to think that's rather pleasing my OCD.

Like I said, I don't have the time right now to hit up the objective calculator, grrrh now I'll be bothered --- must forget, must forget.. Apparently, we both suffer from the same OCD.

 

[Rem0o]

  Like I said, I don't have the time right now to hit up the objective calculator, grrrh now I'll be bothered --- must forget, must forget.. Apparently, we both suffer from the same OCD.

Such an handicap, life is soooooo good with digital volume control  

 

[StanD]

  Such an handicap, life is soooooo good with digital volume control  

Wiseguy. 

 

[CJs06]

I got my Schiit SYS and Mani in today. So I had a house warming party and allowed both my digital and analog friends a chance to get to know one another. They'll be spending some quality time together on this table for as long as I see fit

 

[ThurstonX]

I got my Schiit SYS and Mani in today. So I had a house warming party and allowed both my digital and analog friends a chance to get to know one another. They'll be spending some quality time together on this table for as long as I see fit

 
Nice, and thanks for the pic, as we have the same Stacks o' Schiit.  Or will have once my Mani and SYS arrive on Friday.  I appreciate the look ahead so I can plan the placement.
 
Party on 

 

[CJs06]

   
Nice, and thanks for the pic, as we have the same Stacks o' Schiit.  Or will have once my Mani and SYS arrive on Friday.  I appreciate the look ahead so I can plan the placement.
 
Party on 

Party on Garth

 

[ThurstonX]

I got my Schiit SYS and Mani in today. So I had a house warming party and allowed both my digital and analog friends a chance to get to know one another. They'll be spending some quality time together on this table for as long as I see fit

 
Assuming you've got the Mani and Bifrost going into the SYS, then out to the Lyr, did you notice a difference with the SYS in the chain?