Schiit Eitr impression and USB-SPDIF converters discussion

Mar 15, 2018 at 5:46 AM Post #631 of 1,112
... The issue with Eitr is similar to any other separate USB/SPDIF converter. You have double digital cabling. Asynchronous Isochronous USB transfer (UAC1 or UAC2) is lossy, it's hungry for a quality USB cable...

Hi ! could you elaborate the statement in bold ? do you mean that both asynchronous and isochronous USB transfers are lossy ? from what i understand today with the vast majority of usb dacs the usb transfer is asynchronous with some kind of signal buffering and precision clocking realized inside the dac. Again from what i also understand if the usb input stage of the dac is well designed and built the quality of the usb cable is much less impacting on sound. Of course i mean decent usb cable up to specs.
 
Mar 15, 2018 at 6:40 AM Post #633 of 1,112
Hi ! could you elaborate the statement in bold ? do you mean that both asynchronous and isochronous USB transfers are lossy ? from what i understand today with the vast majority of usb dacs the usb transfer is asynchronous with some kind of signal buffering and precision clocking realized inside the dac. Again from what i also understand if the usb input stage of the dac is well designed and built the quality of the usb cable is much less impacting on sound. Of course i mean decent usb cable up to specs.

What you need to know first, it's asynchronous isochronous being used in UAC1 and UAC2 (USB Audio Class 1.0 and 2.0) standard specifications. There's more than one USB asynchronous mode within USB data tranfer protocols specification, Isochronous is one of them. Isochronous is not the same as Synchronous USB.

Within UAC1 and UAC2 specifications, there's no implementation of packet resend. There's CRC included, but even if CRC fails no resend is being done, data is just forwarded to DAC.
Packet resend is normally being done in USB asynchronous bulk mode which is standardly used to transfer data - resend is being done whenever needed while uniformity of data stream through time domain is not important. Purpose of USB asynchronous isochronous is not necessarily to provide bit perfect data transfer. And so UAC1 and UAC2 are not made as for a perfect data transfer. Whoever said it's bit perfect, it's just a lie.

Though UAC1 and UAC2 are most common, there are other USB implementations. For example M2Tech used bulk mode asynchronous on their eariler implementations - a true bit perfect implementation, which requires regeneration/reclocking. Hegel's designer consider Synchronous USB is better with proper reclocking. Etc. However the advantage of UAC1 and UAC2 is compatibility with standard UAC1/2 drivers. All other implementations require proprietary drivers to work, which makes it complicated in majority of environments.

Anyway, when you have a lossy protocol like UAC1/UAC2, then quality of USB cable does make difference. But it's not all. No DAC is completely digital device, it's a digital and analogue hybrid. Any noise passed, collected or induced within digital cable is harmful for analog circuits, so the ability of digital cable to defend from noise makes a difference - and USB standards provide only certain standard in this respect, which is not meant for a bit perfect transport without using resend.
 
Mar 15, 2018 at 6:47 AM Post #634 of 1,112
Thank you very much indeed for the kind and very helpful advice. I was clearly trivializing the all issue. It is so much more complex that i thought.
Actually i am quite lost now. This usb thing is a nightmare. I will focus on sound and try to get some soundstage. Usually soundstage is a very challenging thing to get with digital. And strong bass too.
 
Mar 15, 2018 at 7:18 AM Post #635 of 1,112
Thank you very much indeed for the kind and very helpful advice. I was clearly trivializing the all issue. It is so much more complex that i thought.
Actually i am quite lost now. This usb thing is a nightmare. I will focus on sound and try to get some soundstage. Usually soundstage is a very challenging thing to get with digital. And strong bass too.

Absolutely, just focus on sound.
If you want a good, tight and deep bass, Cardas Clear USB was proven to me to be really good. It's a copper cable, but thin silver plated cables don't outperform it. A really good value for money and I can only recommend it. In my system it works well with Eitr.
Supra USB is on the other hand good value for money on the cheaper side, IMO. Plenty of juice in sound, but less smooth highs, compared to solid, pricier USBs.
When comparing to plain USB cables, practically any audiophile grade cable I tried made a difference in delivering a sound with significantly less noise. The rest was specific.
 
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Mar 15, 2018 at 7:46 AM Post #636 of 1,112
What you need to know first, it's asynchronous isochronous being used in UAC1 and UAC2 (USB Audio Class 1.0 and 2.0) standard specifications. There's more than one USB asynchronous mode within USB data tranfer protocols specification, Isochronous is one of them. Isochronous is not the same as Synchronous USB.

Within UAC1 and UAC2 specifications, there's no implementation of packet resend. There's CRC included, but even if CRC fails no resend is being done, data is just forwarded to DAC.
Packet resend is normally being done in USB asynchronous bulk mode which is standardly used to transfer data - resend is being done whenever needed while uniformity of data stream through time domain is not important. Purpose of USB asynchronous isochronous is not necessarily to provide bit perfect data transfer. And so UAC1 and UAC2 are not made as for a perfect data transfer. Whoever said it's bit perfect, it's just a lie.

Though UAC1 and UAC2 are most common, there are other USB implementations. For example M2Tech used bulk mode asynchronous on their eariler implementations - a true bit perfect implementation, which requires regeneration/reclocking. Hegel's designer consider Synchronous USB is better with proper reclocking. Etc. However the advantage of UAC1 and UAC2 is compatibility with standard UAC1/2 drivers. All other implementations require proprietary drivers to work, which makes it complicated in majority of environments.

Anyway, when you have a lossy protocol like UAC1/UAC2, then quality of USB cable does make difference. But it's not all. No DAC is completely digital device, it's a digital and analogue hybrid. Any noise passed, collected or induced within digital cable is harmful for analog circuits, so the ability of digital cable to defend from noise makes a difference - and USB standards provide only certain standard in this respect, which is not meant for a bit perfect transport without using resend.

Some drivers have error detection/retry added. Do we know if this is the case for Eitr?
 
Mar 15, 2018 at 8:15 AM Post #637 of 1,112
Absolutely, just focus on sound.
If you want a good, tight and deep bass, Cardas Clear USB was proven to me to be really good. It's a copper cable, but thin silver plated cables don't outperform it. A really good value for money and I can only recommend it. In my system it works well with Eitr.
Supra USB is on the other hand good value for money on the cheaper side, IMO. Plenty of juice in sound, but less smooth highs, compared to solid, pricier USBs.
When comparing to plain USB cables, practically any audiophile grade cable I tried made a difference in delivering a sound with significantly less noise. The rest was specific.

Thanks again for the precious advice. Still i feel that the performance of a very well designed and built usb to spdif converter should not vary remarkably using different combinations (USB and coaxials/AES) of cables of decent quality. Then i have also the feeling that in general balanced connections both digital and analog are intrinsically more resilient to noise and interferences. For this i prefer AES cables.
I also understand that to make an excellent DDC is not a trivial task at all. Thanks again.
 
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Mar 15, 2018 at 9:03 AM Post #638 of 1,112
Some drivers have error detection/retry added. Do we know if this is the case for Eitr?

AFAIK Eitr uses generic UAC2 drivers. But the device itself can do a good job on galvanic isolation and filtering the incoming noise. So device can be more or less sensitive to USB cables. In honesty, I didn't test fully how sensitive Eitr is to USB cable used. I might do that in future, out of curiosity.

Thanks again for the precious advice. Still i feel that the performance of a very well designed and built usb to spdif converter should not vary remarkably using different combinations (USB and coaxials/AES) of cables of decent quality. Then i have also the feeling that in general balanced connections both digital and analog are intrinsically more resilient to noise and interferences. For this i prefer AES cables.
I also understand that to make an excellent DDC is not a trivial task at all. Thanks again.

TBH I didn't play much with USB cables and Eitr, I've been using AQ Coffee and Cardas USB from before and both work well on various DAC's, same is with the Eitr. But I didn't compare them on Eitr to a generic USB cable yet.

S/PDIF is another story. Sound from QED digital coax of 1 m and self made Supra Trico cables of various length is quite different. QED with overblown but not best defined bass and rolled off (though natural sounding) treble sounds inferior. Also, sound through 40 cm Supra with vdH RCA connectors (screwing contact only, no soldering or crimping) or with Neutrik cheap connectors (gold plated brass) is again different, with Neutrik RCA cable sounding with bit more rolled off treble. Also length makes a difference in sound. I was comparing few days ago and I must admit I possibly like the best how 20 cm vdH connectors Supra Trico sounded even better than 40 cm with the same RCA connectors, though the difference was thinnest here, sound was pretty similar. I tried also 80 cm Supra coax with vdH connectors and again 20 cm one sounded better, having a better 'directness' in sound.

How different it is to you, how big the difference is, how important it is. it's up to a personal subjective evaluation, however one thing is true: until you try it it's speculation, only when you do try to compare it you can decide for yourself if it's audible or not to you, significant or not. But in the end, you decide for yourself.

You mention decent quality. Well when it comes to S/PDIF coax, some audiophile coax cable with single noise shielding use it naturally for the negative signal as well, having no other option. What do you think, does this compromise quality?

I received a recommendation for certain non-expensive Belkin cable (said to have outperformed many audiophile digital cables) and moderately expensive Puresonic gold plated RCA connectors (low on mass, copper used instead of brass). Connecters are ordered (thought on back order at web shop so it might take bit longer to receive them) and I'll solder it and test it gladly when ingredients arrive. Until then I must take some further tests on finding the best length. Whether it's better or not than current coax I use, I'm yet to hear, but looking forward to test it. I'm not certain of Supra's value as a digital coax. All I know is at least it uses double shielding, so you don't have to use its outer shield for signal.

AES/EBU is better than S/PDIF, independent clock signal will introduce less jitter, and connectors are also a better fit for digital audio and can meet specification impedance, unlike RCA.connectors. When this is an option, of course. It's pity (but typical) that worse options are used as a standard :) anyway, perhaps because of this various digital RCA coaxes offer audible differences in sound related to cable, connectors and lenght. I wouln't wonder if there is less difference with AES/EBU.
 
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Mar 15, 2018 at 9:55 AM Post #639 of 1,112
AFAIK Eitr uses generic UAC2 drivers. But the device itself can do a good job on galvanic isolation and filtering the incoming noise. So device can be more or less sensitive to USB cables. In honesty, I didn't test fully how sensitive Eitr is to USB cable used. I might do that in future, out of curiosity.

... rest deleted...

I recall that it uses the C Media driver, i.e. not the built-in Windows one that MSFT OEMed from Thesycon.

I don't know much about the C Media driver.

I have not experienced any issues though... except for power line sensitivity. (e.g. flicking on a CFL bulb will cause a drop out most of the time for me.)
 
Mar 15, 2018 at 10:19 AM Post #640 of 1,112
I recall that it uses the C Media driver, i.e. not the built-in Windows one that MSFT OEMed from Thesycon.

I don't know much about the C Media driver.

I have not experienced any issues though... except for power line sensitivity. (e.g. flicking on a CFL bulb will cause a drop out most of the time for me.)

Quote from Schiit web:

Schiit said:
For Windows, start by simply plugging in the DAC via USB and see if it finds and installs drivers. Most newer Windows versions already have drivers for our stuff.
You do not need drivers for Mac or for Linux distros that support UAC2.

Nothing from quote suggests Eitr/Gen 5 uses anything additional aside of UAC2. If those were better drivers and if Gen5 used a resend mode as well, I'd expect a certain recommendation from Schiit related to their driver.
Speaking of Windows, that reminds me I have to do a comparison of Daphile vs Windows Foobar2000 on Eitr. It's possible Eitr reclocks (inconsistent) win USB data stream much better than MyDac directly, for example.
 
Mar 15, 2018 at 10:31 AM Post #641 of 1,112
AFAIK Eitr uses generic UAC2 drivers. But the device itself can do a good job on galvanic isolation and filtering the incoming noise.
So device can be more or less sensitive to USB cables. In honesty, I didn't test fully how sensitive Eitr is to USB cable used. I might do that in future, out of curiosity....

thanks a lot again for the very helpful advice.
I do no want to derail this very interesting thread but i would say that for decent i intend something that fullfil the requirements of the standard used. Said very trivially as Always
In general i like when a cable designed for the purpose is used. Like for instance in the case of probe cables for oscilloscopes. So i much prefer a bnc with the correct impedance than a rca for spdif signal transfer duty.
I have the feeling that starting with a RCA cable not intended for digital is not a sane start.
I like bnc so much more and i do not understand why they do not use it more commonly. They can be very very cheap both male connectors and panel terminations. They have also a locking mechanism. A much better solution than a RCA designed for analog applications.
My guess is that pro audio is a good reference for standards. In the end the recordings are made with pro equipment. I have nothing against pro audio and my best dac is an Apogee Rosetta 200 that maybe it is not the best out there but sounds quite nice. It has also some sort of internal reclocking but i am not an expert. Actually i have also a Gustard X20 packerd away ... never used. Brand new. They speak well of this one. I hope to be able to listen to it asap.
 
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Mar 15, 2018 at 10:46 AM Post #642 of 1,112
Quote from Schiit web:



Nothing from quote suggests Eitr/Gen 5 uses anything additional aside of UAC2. If those were better drivers and if Gen5 used a resend mode as well, I'd expect a certain recommendation from Schiit related to their driver.
Speaking of Windows, that reminds me I have to do a comparison of Daphile vs Windows Foobar2000 on Eitr. It's possible Eitr reclocks (inconsistent) win USB data stream much better than MyDac directly, for example.

I think we are talking past each other. I just double checked:

upload_2018-3-15_10-44-16.png


This is NOT the standard Windows driver from MSFT. The Schiit web site is correct, bec the C Media driver is shipped with Windows (as are many drivers). The web site only says you do not need to install something optional. It does not say that EITR uses the standard USB 2.0 UAC driver from Microsoft.
 
Mar 15, 2018 at 10:54 AM Post #644 of 1,112
I'm thinking about switching from the Eitr to the Singxer F1, because the C-media asio driver keeps glitching with VB Asiobridge. I really don't want to because I really like the sound of the Eitr, but the glitches drive me mad (buffer 50ms)......
 
Mar 15, 2018 at 11:02 AM Post #645 of 1,112
thanks a lot again for the very helpful advice.
I do no want to derail this very interesting thread but i would say that for decent i intend something that fullfil the requirements of the standard used. Said very trivially as Always
In general i like when a cable designed for the purpose is used. Like for instance in the case of probe cables for oscilloscopes. So i much prefer a bnc than a rca for spdif transfer with correct impedance. I have the feeling that starting with a RCA cable not intended for digital is not a sane start.
I like bnc so much more and i do not understand why they do not use it more commonly. They can be very very cheap both male connectors and panel terminations. They have also a locking mechanism and the contact appears very well done. A much better solution than RCA.
My guess is that pro audio is a good reference for standards. In the end the recordings are made with pro equipment. I have nothing against pro audio and my best dac is an Apogee Rosetta 200 that maybe it is not the best out there but sounds quite nice. It has also some sort of internal reclocking but i am not an expert. Actually i have also a Gustard X20 packerd away ... never used. Brand new. They speak well of this one. I hope to be able to listen to it asap.

Yes BNC is again better than RCA because of impedance matching. But its high mass is no luck. It would be interesting to compare best possible BNC connectors with the best possible (low mass, gold/silver/rhodium plated pure copper) RCA connectors.

Eitr might have offered more connection options. Why not AES/EBU support and BNC included? But they chose the simplest/cheapest approach.
 

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