[H20Fidelity]

I can understand your side of the story completely, with your magical graphs that seem to answer everything, but the truth is (and this happens in almost every thread a graph is brought up) there's area's the charts can't tell you. I hear the difference, you can't and seem more persistent than me to prove me wrong, In all honestly I'm not that interested. so we'll just leave it at that. However, I would appreciate a little more consideration when tearing down someones opinion in the future.

 

[scuttle]

Quote:

I can understand your side of the story completely, with your magical graphs that seem to answer everything

 
That would be science, actually...

 
, but the truth is (and this happens in almost every thread a graph is brought up) there's area's the charts can't tell you. I hear the difference

 
A careful and intelligent person could only say that you THINK you hear the difference - at least until you pass a blind test. But people like you never, ever, do:
 

 
https://encyclopediadramatica.se/Audiophile
 
[size=12.666666984558105px]If you're in the business of selling high end audio then it becomes very important to discover to what extent the golden ears are or are not full of it. Bob Carver did a little hands on research at a mid '70s trade show to shed some light on these suspicions. He displayed an impressive system openly. I don't recall the model number but it had the separate tube amps for the right and left channel. It had the oxygen free gold wire to interconnect the type of components that ultra audiophiles have wet dreams about: hand crafted capacitors and resistors and transistors matched to six 9s precision in gain and so on and so forth. In any case the system displayed was in the $30k range at the time. The speakers were no less expensive and no doubt exquisitely hand matched to the amps. But here is where the joke comes in. The speakers were connected to a $200 dollar range bookshelf stereo hidden behind a curtain. Carver injected pink noise into the ultra stereo and displayed the result on a spectrum analyzer. He then set the bookshelf system to a moderate volume and EQed it with the same pink noise as input until it matched the spectrum of the ultra stereo. As long as the controls on the bookshelf were not tampered with, it's sound was good approximation of the ultra stereo at the same moderate volume. He told the audience that he had a top secret experimental system behind the curtain and wanted to field test it to ensure he was on the right track. With some audiophile grade vinyl classical as the input he switched between the ultra stereo (which they COULD see and were familiar with) and the "top secret" bookshelf system behind the curtain. Lo and behold! The bookshelf system had far better "aural spaciality.........." I've known salesmen who have done this same thing several times with the same result. I suppose this goes a long way toward explaining the audiophile aversion to double blinded A/B listening tests. Those A/B switches must introduce some truly horrible "multiphasic inhibited frequency shifts" into the signal.[/size]

 
When a graph says one thing, and a self-selected group of "audiophiles" says another, bet on the graph.

 

[carsten2501]

Deleted

 

[truckdriver]

Quote:

 
If you were unbiased on this matter you would have bet on your own ears.
 

Exactly.
 
The Clip+ is only $35. It a good value for the money. I don't regret buying it. The Clip+ is affordable and is no mystery. Everyone with one can tell what others may consider to be “high quality sound”. That may indeed be its best use. Just sayin'....

 

[JakeJack_2008]

Quote:

I am not the only one who hears this scuttle, I don't know how it all works but there's clearly less clarity in rockbox, very easy to pick in vocals. Whether it be a different flat EQ or not, even someone I don't know very well mentioned it to me the other day here, they picked it out on their own and they've only been into the hobby a few months. Why don't you instead of trying to shoot people down all the time see things from both sides of the fence. I see you around the forums often with your bias statements, keep them to yourself please. I cannot help it if you guys can't hear these things, but to suggest I would just post in this thread and make up a meaningless story, or put down my opinion is uncalled for. I do believe some people really can't hear the difference, they simply cannot which makes their opinions feel valid to them as does mine. Why we see people calling the Clip+ an "audio work of genius" lol Come 'on it's a $30 player that measures flat, has a congested soundstage and sounds like an FM radio.

Thanks.

 
I like this:
 
 
Quote:

Why we see people calling the Clip+ an "audio work of genius" lol Come 'on it's a $30 player that measures flat, has a congested soundstage and sounds like an FM radio.

 
 
Well, I've got very little experience with the Sansa Clip+. Not even Rockboxed yet.
Perhaps it  is an "audio work of genius" at the $30 price level or perhaps it's not? - I've got no experience.
Perhaps it beats, in terms of sound quality, any portable audio player - with 4 GB memory -  say,  in the $30 - $80 price range. - I don't know.
Regardless of whatever, I do like my 4GB Sansa Clip+. To me, at $30 it's worth every penny!
 
 
Nevertheles, at the same time, I am already thinking about gradual  upgrade to something around $100:  Cowon ?,  Colorfly ?, Sony ?, etc.
Ultimately I'll buy  something around $200, perhaps HM-601, Rocoo -P, or ???
 
 
Right now,  I am enjoying the little bugger Sansa Clip+.

 

[scuttle]

Originally Posted by carsten2501 

 
If you were unbiased on this matter you would have bet on your own ears.

 
Actually, that would be about the definition of biased (or at least the exemplar) - so I can understand why went back and deleted this.

 

[scuttle]

Quote:

 
I like this:
 
 
 
 
Well, I've got very little experience with the Sansa Clip+. Not even Rockboxed yet.
Perhaps it  is an "audio work of genius" at the $30 price level or perhaps it's not? - I've got no experience.
Perhaps it beats, in terms of sound quality, any portable audio player - with 4 GB memory -  say,  in the $30 - $80 price range. - I don't know.
Regardless of whatever, I do like my 4GB Sansa Clip+. To me, at $30 it's worth every penny!
 
 
Nevertheles, at the same time, I am already thinking about gradual  upgrade to something around $100:  Cowon ?,  Colorfly ?, Sony ?, etc.
Ultimately I'll buy  something around $200, perhaps HM-601, Rocoo -P, or ???
 
 
Right now,  I am enjoying the little bugger Sansa Clip+.

 
Yeah, well:
 
- I have about the best Cowon model: except in its ability to aggressively hack the sound using BBE, it is not distinguishable from the Clip
 
- I know sane people at anythingbutipod who tested the HM601 and have  Cowons and Clips - and whose response was pretty much to laugh at the fact that anyone was willing to buy a 601 for $800
 
The bottom line is
 
- All good amps sound the same
 
- The Clip's amp is low noise, has an excellent frequency response, and enough power to drive any reasonable portable phone without (confusing term) clipping
 
- The DAC is provably good enough to be considered faultless within the limits of human hearing
 
And really, should the fact that an $30 DAP has the same sq as an $800 one surprised anybody, given that a $200 receiver blind tests as being as good as $30,000 of FOTM separates? Transducers otoh do count - which is you see sane people with Sax Earspeakers hooked up via their weird adaptors to $100 tripath amps.

 

[H20Fidelity]

I like this:




Well, I've got very little experience with the Sansa Clip+. Not even Rockboxed yet.
Perhaps it  is an "audio work of genius" at the $30 price level or perhaps it's not? - I've got no experience.
Perhaps it beats, in terms of sound quality, any portable audio player - with 4 GB memory -  say,  in the $30 - $80 price range. - I don't know.
Regardless of whatever, I do like my 4GB Sansa Clip+. To me, at $30 it's worth every penny!


Nevertheles, at the same time, I am already thinking about gradual  upgrade to something around $100:  Cowon ?,  Colorfly ?, Sony ?, etc.
Ultimately I'll buy  something around $200, perhaps HM-601, Rocoo -P, or ???


Right now,  I am enjoying the little bugger Sansa Clip+.

In all honesty, the Clip+ is great for the money, there's nothing in that price range ($30-$50) that comes close, it measures well and in some ways I agree with scuttle, I used a Clip+ when I started out in this hobby for many months. I was coming from an old iPod and really happy, even the thought of having custom EQ had set me free at the time, but the problem is with this hobby you're always lusting for more, I believe if the addiction hadn't set in I could of happily stopped there, truth is everything has limits and my ears are open enough to see those limitations. It lacks detail, soundstage and especially instrument separation, also.. there's not much of a black space behind the music. it does however have high amounts of clarity which Is one thing I believe people listen for / or notice straight away when A/Bing two players.

And to me since moving on it does remind me of listening to an FM radio, because I have heard other gear I enjoy more. You can check my profile inventory to see I have tried enough sources to realize Clips+ limitations, that includes Sansa, Cowon, Ipod, Colorfly Hifiman, Sony, Creative, in different models, but that shouldn't stop you from enjoying your player, it's more people are lead to believe the Clip+ is MUCH more than it actually is and comments like this are just insane, they take it to far blowing the Clip+ into something it's really not besides the good measurements.

And it's threads like this where members like scuttle push their biased opinions so hard you end up with nOObs thinking things like this.

Okay ... thank you for your deatailed summery.
In other words the fiio have the same amp as my zip...  

I still dont understand why people use amp with eabuds  when i dont need it with a headphones..
But i understand what you are saying and i will play with the eq..

lOl  i did noticed that some people buy headphones for $500  and believe they can hear the difference while they sound exactly the same as a cheap headphones. 
as i said i will learn to master the EQ.      and repost with the differences .

thank you all for your help and support.


p.s. i have found a new original fuze which will cost me $120  and i think to buy it..
i do realize he will sound the same as my zip -  but...  

At the end of the day I don't want anyone to stop enjoying their Clip+ or Sansa product but some people come to Head-Fi looking for great sound quality only to ever touch the border of what's out there, thinking it doesn't get any better. :rolleyes:

 

[carsten2501]

Quote:

 
Actually, that would be about the definition of biased (or at least the exemplar) - so I can understand why went back and deleted this.

You choose to believe measurements over what some people state they hear. Neither covers the whole truth, what is left is listening yourself.

 

[JakeJack_2008]

Quote:

In all honesty, the Clip+ is great for the money, there's nothing in that price range ($30-$50) that comes close, it measures well and in some ways I agree with scuttle, I used a Clip+ when I started out in this hobby for many months. I was coming from an old iPod and really happy, even the thought of having custom EQ had set me free at the time, but the problem is with this hobby you're always lusting for more, I believe if the addiction hadn't set in I could of happily stopped there, truth is everything has limits and my ears are open enough to see those limitations. It lacks detail, soundstage and especially instrument separation, also.. there's not much of a black space behind the music. it does however have high amounts of clarity which Is one thing I believe people listen for / or notice straight away when A/Bing two players.

And to me since moving on it does remind me of listening to an FM radio, because I have heard other gear I enjoy more. You can check my profile inventory to see I have tried enough sources to realize Clips+ limitations, that includes Sansa, Cowon, Ipod, Colorfly Hifiman, Sony, Creative, in different models, but that shouldn't stop you from enjoying your player, it's more people are lead to believe the Clip+ is MUCH more than it actually is and comments like this are just insane, they take it to far blowing the Clip+ into something it's really not besides the good measurements.

And it's threads like this where members like scuttle push their biased opinions so hard you end up with nOObs thinking things like this.

At the end of the day I don't want anyone to stop enjoying their Clip+ or Sansa product but some people come to Head-Fi looking for great sound quality but only touch the border of what's out there thinking it doesn't get any better.

Thanx a lot. Very interesting. I'll check Your profile soon.

 

[wijnands]

I'v had a clip+ since '09 and since then I've progressed in headphones from a simple PMX60 via a PX 100 to Beyer's DT 770pro. Everytime I was amazed at how much more detail there was in my flac files. Driving the DT 770 is a hard task for that little player though but it manages good enough for me. Over the years I've compared it against the various ipods and to my ears only the classic or the 6th generation nano can rival it.
 
Is it the best player out there? Probably not but in it's pricerange it's the best I've ever listned to. Unfortunately mine has been acting up a lot lately. It freezes for no good reason. Started since they moved my bag trough the x-ray machine at the airport several times. I've upgraded firmwares, tried rockbox (which indeed seems to lack just a touch of clarity on opera), formatted it but nothing really helps.
 
So, pretty soon I think I'll have to replace it with something new. Funnily enough clip+ are actually more expensive now than the Zip and since money is tight..

 

[WittyName]

I just bought the Clip+ and also spent some time considering the Clip Zip.  The only reason I would have gone for the Clip Zip is for album art and I don't really care about that.  I wanted a nice little portable FLAC DAP.  Got the Clip+ & a 32GB card for $55.  After tweaking my Rockbox sound settings I finally have it close to exactly the sound I like on my UE 350s.  A bit weak on my Grado SR-80s, but I don't plan on using those with it much.
 
I actually chose the Clip+ for two reasons; didn't care about album art and its reputation.

 

[wijnands]

Well.. the zip is in. Interface is different as noted, not sure how I feel about that yet. The speed increase in database handling is welcome. Both players are running the current version of the official firmware.
 
I've copied my old tracks over and am now listening to a vinyl rip of Diana Krall's "east of the sun" from the Paris album. I like that one as a reference track. My initial impression is that the Clip+ sounds just a touch warmer and the Zip sounds a bit wider (if that makes sense) and ever so slightly punchier on the cymbals. The Zip certainly has to strain a lot less to drive my DT770 pro.

 

[katsalaki]

Good Morning from Greece! i would like to ask which of 2 mp3 players (zip or plus) is compatible with my headphones Aerial7 Phoenix Citron, without the use of adaptor? because i have a serious problem and all my old mp3 players doesn't recognize them at all. Thank you in advance, i am waiting your response.

 

[Retrias]

rockbox them and they both should be fine, I am guessing the headphone have like 3 stripe on the jack because it says it have an inline , the clip + at least can do 3 stripe headphones (tested it with an included samsung buds, and my moms earpods)