The Watercooler -- Impressions, philosophical discussion and general banter. Index on first page. All welcome.

[Mehran]

The Sony Sport walkman above was my first passport to portable audio bliss back in the 90s. Walkmans had been around for some time at this point but the one above was a revelation in how good it sounded and how robust it was-- I took it to the gym, on walks, out and about...everywhere...and it never let me down.

A number of years later in university I ate ramen for a month so I could afford the sleek "auto reverse" model below that sounded even better than the yellow one above. This one was my bread and butter for years...basically until mp3 players became a thing.



The most interesting aspect of things then and things now, not considering advances in tech etc. is that back in the walkman hey-dey the player was given all the attention and the transducers themselves were almost afterthought, or at least not obviously the result of any serious r & d, and just bundled in the box wrapped in cheap plastic. These days there is a common sentiment that the transducers are the most important factor and that sources are much less important, with some even saying they don't make much of a difference at all. Like so many things I feel the answer is somewhere in the middle. I have been at this for a few years now and I've finally honed in on a setup that fits my tastes almost perfectly. It occurred to me recently that, say, if I was forced by circumstance to sell off all my gear one piece at a time the Shanling M8 would be the last thing to go. I found this puzzling in light of the prevailing notion that transducers are the most important factor. I'm settling on the opinion that while yes the transducers are the most important factor in your chain, the source is the hardest thing to get just right. So while there are a number of IEMs out there that give me roughly the same degree of satisfaction I can't think of any source I've heard-- and I've heard a few-- that ropes me in with its seductive musicality as the M8 does. It elevates every IEM I've heard to another level...somehow zoning in to the best strengths of each and making them shine. Z1R's bass digs deeper, Andro sounds clearer, more spacious and more refined, Elysium sounds more natural etc. etc. Whatever Shanling brings out in the future I hope it expands on the legacy and sound of the M8.

I hope I'm not buying at the wrong time, I hear there's gonna be an announcement soon. About a new Shanling product I mean.

 

[Rockwell75]

I hope I'm not buying at the wrong time, I hear there's gonna be an announcement soon.

I just found out about that yesterday-- from info and marketing so far it seems more likely to be a mid point between the m8 and m30...perhaps on the order of the Cayin C9. Beyond that there's no certainty that the ESS chips they're using now will capture the magic of the M8. Either way the M8 seems likely to maintain its value and niche.

 

[Mehran]

I just found out about that yesterday-- from info and marketing so far it seems more likely to be a mid point between the m8 and m30...perhaps on the order of the Cayin C9. Beyond that there's no certainty that the ESS chips they're using now will capture the magic of the M8. Either way the M8 seems likely to maintain its value and niche.

I hope so .The rate at which these companies bring out new models and revisions is a bit unsettling though.

 

[Rockwell75]

I hope so .The rate at which these companies bring out new models and revisions is a bit unsettling though.

It's the way modern markets work unfortunately-- and it must be extra complicated in a hobby with so many smaller, niche outfits. I think the thing to remember is that most changes model to model are very slight and if you're selective (and disciplined, lol) enough you won't feel the need to hear each new iteration.

 

[Rockwell75]

Sunday morning playlist...

 

[Tchoupitoulas]

there is a common sentiment that the transducers are the most important factor and that sources are much less important, with some even saying they don't make much of a difference at all. Like so many things I feel the answer is somewhere in the middle.

My sense is that there's a shifting scale, one that varies according to the quality of the transducers. Setting aside issues of source matching when it comes to things like power or output impedance, I've found that with entry-level IEMs, the source doesn't much matter; with better IEMs, poor sources begin to hold back the overall performance, and with high-end IEMs, the source becomes critical to adding the most meaningful upgrade to the overall sound quality.

To make this more concrete, my sources are an old iPod (5th gen), iPhone 7, MacBook Air=>Qobuz=>Lotoo Paw S1, and a Sony NW-ZX2 (a totl DAP 5 years ago). I'm playing Apple lossless or FLAC files when not using the S1.

My my EchoBox Finder X1 IEMs, which I use for working out, sound more or less the same with all sources. My Massdrop Plus IEMs sound marginally better with the S1 and the ZX2 than the other two sources, although I don't think I'd like to take a blind test in support of that claim. My Andromeda 2020 sounds similar out of the iPod and iPhone 7, appreciably better out of the S1 -- there's less treble grain than with the iPhone -- and even better yet out of the ZX2, especially with bass slam and macrodynamics and, to a lesser extent, resolution. When I auditioned the Empire Ears Odin on a loaner tour, the S1 was clearly inferior to the ZX2, especially when it came to resolution. This got me to thinking: how much better could the Odin have been if I'd had a totl DAP to test it with? I'd bet the Ely needs something of the calibre of the M8 to sound its best.

Beyond portable use, it gets too hot here in NYC during the summer for over-ear headphones, so I turn to IEMs for at-home listening; I'm now wondering if it might be worth investing in a desktop setup. The THX 789 amp gets a lot of praise for its use with IEMs -- as it has a low gain setting, apparently, that's well-suited to them, even sensitive Campfire Audio ones -- and I've seen people use those RME gear, like the ADI-2 Pro BE for IEMs as well.

Do any of you guys use desktop DACs and amps or all-in-ones for your IEMs?

 

[Rockwell75]

My sense is that there's a shifting scale, one that varies according to the quality of the transducers. Setting aside issues of source matching when it comes to things like power or output impedance, I've found that with entry-level IEMs, the source doesn't much matter; with better IEMs, poor sources begin to hold back the overall performance, and with high-end IEMs, the source becomes critical to adding the most meaningful upgrade to the overall sound quality.

Great points.

My my EchoBox Finder X1 IEMs, which I use for working out, sound more or less the same with all sources. My Massdrop Plus IEMs sound marginally better with the S1 and the ZX2 than the other two sources, although I don't think I'd like to take a blind test in support of that claim. My Andromeda 2020 sounds similar out of the iPod and iPhone 7, appreciably better out of the S1 -- there's less treble grain than with the iPhone -- and even better yet out of the ZX2, especially with bass slam and macrodynamics and, to a lesser extent, resolution. When I auditioned the Empire Ears Odin on a loaner tour, the S1 was clearly inferior to the ZX2, especially when it came to resolution. This got me to thinking: how much better could the Odin have been if I'd had a totl DAP to test it with? I'd bet the Ely needs something of the calibre of the M8 to sound its best.

While I agree that through the M8 the Elysium sounds its best (and pretty much every other IEM I've auditioned through it that I've used with multiple sources)...but it doesn't need something like the M8 to sound great...it just needs a good deal of power. I fell in love with Elysium and purchased it having just heard it through my n6ii...once I got the M8 that was a whole new level. I know you're not a fan but the Dorado 2020 also synergizes very well with the M8, though to be fair it's the only source I've really heard it through.

Beyond portable use, it gets too hot here in NYC during the summer for over-ear headphones, so I turn to IEMs for at-home listening; I'm now wondering if it might be worth investing in a desktop setup. The THX 789 amp gets a lot of praise for its use with IEMs -- as it has a low gain setting, apparently, that's well-suited to them, even sensitive Campfire Audio ones -- and I've seen people use those RME gear, like the ADI-2 Pro BE for IEMs as well.

Do any of you guys use desktop DACs and amps or all-in-ones for your IEMs?

I've been reading up about the Cayin C9 lately...that seems to be a great option for a desktop setup that also seems to elevate most IEMs to a different level of sound.

 

[Nalin]

I just found out about that yesterday-- from info and marketing so far it seems more likely to be a mid point between the m8 and m30...perhaps on the order of the Cayin C9. Beyond that there's no certainty that the ESS chips they're using now will capture the magic of the M8. Either way the M8 seems likely to maintain its value and niche.

I like if they can exclude all UI and related electronics and just plain focus on DAC + AMP part, something like Cayin C9 but with a DAC. Like what iFi does with their line but flagship grade, I hope I am not asking for too much here.

 

[Rockwell75]

Some LX vs. Solaris SE impressions from about a year ago when I owned both:


The LX and Solaris put forth very different sound signatures-- and personally I find them very complementary. With the LX the whole signature is defined by the bass-- it's large, it's powerful and it's everywhere. Thankfully it's also very resolving and detailed so that the rest of the sound isn't drowned out in the bass. Nonetheless the bass is present and it dominates. Consequently the mids, particularly vocals, while sufficiently bodied and robust, are pushed back a bit behind the bass...but this is true in any V-shaped monitor. The result, I find, is that the sound is a bit "closed in"...I wouldn't go so far as to say congested, as one of the great things about LX is that it somehow avoids this despite all the bass...it's why I would call it the ultimate "basshead audiophile" IEM. Nonetheless, due to the robust low end on the LX it can be said to be lacking a bit of air.

The Solaris, on the other hand, is an entirely different beast. Whereas the LX does the "v-shaped club sound " better than anything else I've ever heard, the Solaris gives you a sense of air and space and a holographic stage-- I have not encountered any IEM, and I've tried many, that can replicated the sense of 3-d space and separation of sounds that Solaris creates...it's simply breathtaking. Consequently everything has more space to breath, vocals are more forward, and there is more thickness in the mids overall. The bass is still present and impactful. but it's at the centre of a vast space rather than dominating the mix. With the LX I feel as thouh I'm at the club, on the floor with the bass pulsating around me, with the Solaris I feel as though I'm inhabiting a vast space with detail and sound coming at me from all directions.

What's interesting to me is that with each IEM I can listen to the same track and enjoy it in two different ways. Take for instance Ice Cubes "Amerikkka's Most Wanted" off the album of he same name. It's one of my favorite hip hop tracks and it's driven by a deliciously textured and deep bassline. On the LX this bass is brought to the forefront and it really gets you going, with the lyrics retreating to the background a wee bit. On the Solaris, the same texture and rumble is there in the bass, but it's in the background while Cube's voice is more in the foreground and it feels as though he's rapping right into your ear. The sound on the whole is cleaner & clearer and much more spacious. I enjoy the presentation of each equally, depending on my mood. I love both IEMs and would still consider Solaris my favorite IEM as it ticks all my boxes and is a better "all rounder to me"...but the LX is a fantastic "partner in crime" for the times when I want a more robust, pounding club type sound-- it is peerless in that regard.

 

[Mehran]

I think with the IEMs I have now I got a lot of genres covered . Elysium great for metal, acoustic ,vocals , pop and classical ( expect for big symphonic perhaps ,maybe Solaris does that better or fourte , I don't know). Lx for Rap, Hip Hop and Edm .Solaris a bit of all-rounder but best for Rock ,and Blues. Semper for adding sweetness to music in a way no other can, the Planar driver is unbelievable in the body and sense of realism it brings to vocals and electric guitars, plus the bass is amazing with a 15mm DD. The Mest is best for EDM , but I'm gonna give it to my brother. Not sure where the Fourte stands in all of this but we'll see.

 

[Rockwell75]

I think with the IEMs I have now I got a lot of genres covered . Elysium great for metal, acoustic ,vocals , pop and classical ( expect for big symphonic perhaps ,maybe Solaris does that better or fourte , I don't know). Lx for Rap, Hip Hop and Edm .Solaris a bit of all-rounder but best for Rock ,and Blues. Semper for adding sweetness to music in a way no other can, the Planar driver is unbelievable in the body and sense of realism it brings to vocals and electric guitars, plus the bass is amazing with a 15mm DD. The Mest is best for EDM , but I'm gonna give it to my brother. Not sure where the Fourte stands in all of this but we'll see.

Can't wait for your thoughts on the Fourte. It's easily one of the most divisive IEMs of the last few years. Please post them here if you don't mind

 

[Mehran]

Can't wait for your thoughts on the Fourte. It's easily one of the most divisive IEMs of the last few years. Please post them here if you don't mind

Sure, I'll be happy to.

 

[Rockwell75]

Sure, I'll be happy to.

Love the profile pic btw. I need to followup with one of Johann Sebastian.

 

[Mehran]

Love the profile pic btw. I need to followup with one of Johann Sebastian.

Haha, thanks. I wanted to ask you what tips you are using with the Elysium? I love the sound with regular and short Sedna's but they hurt my ear, the nozzle is way too thick.

 

[Rockwell75]

Haha, thanks. I wanted to ask you what tips you are using with the Elysium? I love the sound with regular and short Sedna's but they hurt my ear, the nozzle is way too thick.

I use Xelastecs-- they give a nice custom-like fit which works very well with Elysium.