[gimmeheadroom]

I certainly don't want to cause any trouble, I like this crowd!

I've said it once and I'll say it again... I'm too much of a casual at this stage in my hobby to know how voltage, impedance, etc. affect my experience. It's something I'll grasp with experience and time.

Oh I didn't mean that at all I meant if you are happy with your gear it's a bad time to start experimenting! That can lead to a severe loss of money!

In my experience, which is very limited, the Sennheisers start to sound good with amps that swing 12V - 15V and scale hugely as the amp gets better and more powerful. It's empirical experience but I found it interesting for example that the Meier Corda Jazz-ff swings 15V and drives the HD 600 very well and that the new ifi Zen Can is also rated at 15V. I run my Sennheisers balanced out of a V280 which swings like 60V. When you have enough voltage, the sound fills out and there is a sense of space and fullness and that the music from bass to high treble is really what it should be. With amps that don't have enough power, or not enough of the right kind of power, they can sound lifeless and thin even though they get loud enough. I have noticed significant differences in sound quality with these out of around 10 different amps and sources and I concluded what I concluded.

I think a lot of people are happy with Sennheisers out of their RME or other dacamp and I'm not saying they're wrong. I do not see many of them if any saying they compared the sound from the RME to the sound of a GSX-mini, Bryston, Violectric, Feliks etc. driven by the RME and didn't find it hugely better and more coherent.

By the way, a cheap amp that does a really good job with the 600/650/6XX is the Valhalla 2 with good tubes.

 

[gimmeheadroom]

May I ask that if it counts even for HD800S, in your opinion ?

Thanks

I can't remember if I spent much time with my 800s (not S) out of the RME. I have a dedicated Sennheiser setup which is a Brooklyn driving a V280 balanced all the way. Sometimes I run the 600s off a Valhalla 2 and it sounds great, but the 800 reveals too much midrange slop and blur with the stock tubes so I don't use it.

I think it's a mistake to buy Sennheisers and run them directly out of most dacamps. There are exceptions of course but 90% or more dacamps will not give you what the Sennheisers are capable of.

If you're happy with what you're hearing nobody can tell you you're wrong. But we can suggest trying a better amp so you have a basis for comparison and don't sell yourself short by listening to your headphones out of less amp than they can benefit from.

 

[gimmeheadroom]

I don't put too much importance into amp differences these days personally but I have a Phonitor e, a Corda Classic FF and a Corda Jazz FF. All of these manage 15+V. The differences increases depending on listening volume for me. Considering the nearly 500Ohm of a HD650 in the bass 12-15V is a reasonable number if you listen to 80-90db. I'm more at 70-80db, this is quite fine for the RME. Listening louder reduces slam and soundstage and increases fatigue if you don't have the headroom, which should be 40db to be on the safe side.

I'm talking about how the sound improves when the amp can supply enough power, fast enough. I'm not talking about steady-state volume.

 

[Bompah]

Oh I didn't mean that at all I meant if you are happy with your gear it's a bad time to start experimenting! That can lead to a severe loss of money!

Amen!

 

[Lolito]

Oh I didn't mean that at all I meant if you are happy with your gear it's a bad time to start experimenting! That can lead to a severe loss of money!

In my experience, which is very limited, the Sennheisers start to sound good with amps that swing 12V - 15V and scale hugely as the amp gets better and more powerful. It's empirical experience but I found it interesting for example that the Meier Corda Jazz-ff swings 15V and drives the HD 600 very well and that the new ifi Zen Can is also rated at 15V. I run my Sennheisers balanced out of a V280 which swings like 60V. When you have enough voltage, the sound fills out and there is a sense of space and fullness and that the music from bass to high treble is really what it should be. With amps that don't have enough power, or not enough of the right kind of power, they can sound lifeless and thin even though they get loud enough. I have noticed significant differences in sound quality with these out of around 10 different amps and sources and I concluded what I concluded.

I think a lot of people are happy with Sennheisers out of their RME or other dacamp and I'm not saying they're wrong. I do not see many of them if any saying they compared the sound from the RME to the sound of a GSX-mini, Bryston, Violectric, Feliks etc. driven by the RME and didn't find it hugely better and more coherent.

By the way, a cheap amp that does a really good job with the 600/650/6XX is the Valhalla 2 with good tubes.

Yes man, but those amps you mention, they all cost a fortune, and the hd6XX are 200$ headphones. I would certainly use a gsx mini or violectric IF YOU PAY FOR IT AND SEND IT TO MY ADDRESS, but otherwise, for those thousands of euros I really can do many more things than buy a 2000$ headphone amp.

 

[Lolito]

Downsizing went very good (not for the wallet I guess)

That is a lovely photo, what a great combo you have!! new black joutenheim looks really elegant, modern, minimal, sophisticated. BUT, that is not a regular joutenheim... that is the R, not the 2... my bad... I noticed later no single ended jack connection.

 

[wantan]

I'm talking about how the sound improves when the amp can supply enough power, fast enough. I'm not talking about steady-state volume.

I'm not aware of a technical concept for this but I assume we're talking about the same thing actually, I just call it headroom. Forum postings can easily be misunderstood so please be aware I don't oppose your opinion.

If you listen to the RME - Corda Jazz FF - HD600 chain what output power setting would you use for the RME and which gain for the amp (for modern music with dynamic range about 8-10). I'm just curious because I have the same setup available.

 

[Slim1970]

I'm not aware of a technical concept for this but I assume we're talking about the same thing actually, I just call it headroom. Forum postings can easily be misunderstood so please be aware I don't oppose your opinion.

If you listen to the RME - Corda Jazz FF - HD600 chain what output power setting would you use for the RME and which gain for the amp (for modern music with dynamic range about 8-10). I'm just curious because I have the same setup available.

Set it up for auto ref. That way the RME will adjust itself and always give you the best and most output power as you adjust the volume wheel. It will also prevent you from clipping or overpowering your headphones as as well.

 

[gimmeheadroom]

Yes man, but those amps you mention, they all cost a fortune, and the hd6XX are 200$ headphones. I would certainly use a gsx mini or violectric IF YOU PAY FOR IT AND SEND IT TO MY ADDRESS, but otherwise, for those thousands of euros I really can do many more things than buy a 2000$ headphone amp.

That comparison is meaningless. Would you feel better spending 100 euros on an amp for a 1700 euro pair of headphones?

The point was not how much a good amp costs but rather how good the 600/650/6XX are that they scale with better and better amps.

The HD 600 may cost 360 euros but in many ways it is difficult to beat for 1500 euros. How much a headphone costs does not really correlate very well to how it sounds. These are one of the best examples.

Like I said, a good cheap amp is a Valhalla 2. Even better if you spend some money and upgrade the tubes.

 

[gimmeheadroom]

I'm not aware of a technical concept for this but I assume we're talking about the same thing actually, I just call it headroom. Forum postings can easily be misunderstood so please be aware I don't oppose your opinion.

If you listen to the RME - Corda Jazz FF - HD600 chain what output power setting would you use for the RME and which gain for the amp (for modern music with dynamic range about 8-10). I'm just curious because I have the same setup available.

I don't think what you're talking about is headroom, strictly speaking but I could be wrong. I think of headroom as static. In other words, once you reach your desired listening level, how much more is left out of that amp? My point was more about dynamic power delivery capability. And I think it makes a difference even at normal listening levels.

Whenever I use an external amp, I drive the source at 100% (0 dB). To me this is the correct and only safe way to do it. For one thing, amps are rated when fully driven. If you control output level at the source, you are underdriving your amp and it will not perform as well as it would when fully driven. For another thing, there is always the risk you'll blow up your gear or destroy your hearing if you control output level at the source and keep the amp at full output. You can easily forget or change the output device and bad things could happen.

My dacamps are set up in line out mode. When a pair of headphones is not plugged in, they go to 0 dB out. When I plug in a pair of headphones, they remember the last volume level I used.

I don't necessarily suggest the Corda Jazz-ff as ideal to run off the RME. Rather, it was an example of a amp that I feel does very well with the HD 600s and amazingly well with LCD-2C by the way. But as good as the RME is, if you have hard to drive headphones the dac deserves a really good amp.

 

[captblaze]

Like I said, a good cheap amp is a Valhalla 2. Even better if you spend some money and upgrade the tubes.

I've had good results with matched Bugle Boys (have some Gold Lions in queue waiting purchase) for input tubes and some Russian output tubes. This combo does an adequate job of opening up 300 ohm cans

 

[elisiX]

For me i've found the following with my RME when paired with my HD800S;

HD800S out of RME alone, often the music is too sharp and can be uncomfortable sounding at times across a wide range of music, especially when poorly recorded
HD800S out of RME/V281, much better with significantly fewer occasions that I detected harshness in tracks - V281 brought body to the sound
HD800S out of RME/V281 with Moon Black Dragon headphone cable, zero occasions that I find music to sound harsh - BD cable did exactly what it said it would

From Moon;
'It is extremely smooth sounding with great low end and wonderful voicing. It is not a laid-back, lush, or dark sounding cable. It smooths out the top end, making it a little less analytical and a little more natural-sounding. It also adds bottom end weight to the lower frequencies and provides a fuller sound and wider soundstage.'

This is exactly how i'd describe this cable for the HD800S.

I'm also a fan of this cable for the Utopia, though I think it has a greater positive impact on the HD800S.

 

[GumbyDammit223]

Fish outta water here (obviously), but I quite like the sound of my HD600 through the ADI-2. I think there's a little to be desired, but I'm content. At the risk of being obtuse/abrasive, am I to think that I need to get the ADI-2 and a dedicated amp? Sounds like a JDS Atom stack would be more than sufficient, no?

Might I suggest you consider the Schiit Valhalla 2 if you're looking for a different amp to feed your HD600's? I have one and my HD650's and HD700's sound great with it.

 

[GumbyDammit223]

I don't put too much importance into amp differences these days personally but I have a Phonitor e, a Corda Classic FF and a Corda Jazz FF. All of these manage 15+V. The differences increases depending on listening volume for me. Considering the nearly 500Ohm of a HD650 in the bass 12-15V is a reasonable number if you listen to 80-90db. I'm more at 70-80db, this is quite fine for the RME. Listening louder reduces slam and soundstage and increases fatigue if you don't have the headroom, which should be 40db to be on the safe side.

Maybe I'm comparing apples to oranges here, but I started out in the headphone game a few years ago with a Schiit Bifrost, Valhalla 2, and a pair of Sennheiser HD700's. Sounded great for almost everything I listen to, but not everything. I then purchased a pair of HD650's which still worked well but clamped too tightly onto my fat head, so they're not what I use for most listening. I then took the plunge earlier this year and purchased a pair of Dan Clark Ether 2's. They sounded like crap with the V2 but sounded fine with my big 5.1 Denon receiver. That's when I purchased a Phonitor x. Amazing difference in performance in the E2's! It was money well spent. What I'm trying to say is that before I spent another large chunk of cash, I poured over amplifier specs in terms of output impedance, power into x ohm headphones, etc and by the numbers, the V2 should've been sufficient. It was woefully lacking the drive needed for the E2's. The numbers can't tell you the whole story. You need either first-hand experience with the objects in question to determine how well they work together, or the opinion of someone you trust who has that first-hand experience.

With regard to listening levels, you're right it absolutely does matter. Playing a mediocre amp at low listening levels will not push it out of its comfort zone and should sound decent. You just can't push it hard. That was my theory when I tried listening to Loreena McKennitt's The Mummer's Dance. Even at very modest listening levels, the bass was just so muddy and sloppy with the E2's connected to the V2 that I thought there was a problem with the headphones. Plugging the E2's into the Phonitor, everything was tight and punchy.

My 2¢.

 

[CaptainFantastic]

That comparison is meaningless. Would you feel better spending 100 euros on an amp for a 1700 euro pair of headphones?

And to add... I've seen the following point made several times this year by people in this hobby, including some high-flying reviewers: "Since it takes an expensive amp for the HD 600 to reach its full potential and the HD 600 is 'only' a $300 headphone, it's not worth it, who would foolishly spend $1000 on a amp. Why not get a $300 headphone that reaches its full potential with a cheap or $500 amp?" ...the argument goes.

First of all, the HD 600 sounds good on cheaper amps too, and it certainly sounds great on the way above entry-level offering of the RME ADI-2. It's just that it sounds even better on the right amp, either solid state with the right attributes or an OTL tube amp. But secondly, just because the HD 600 sells for $300 doesn't mean that the people who enjoy it are using it because they can't afford a more expensive headphone. For me, and I am sure for others, there is no substitute for the HD 600. I had a very expensive Audeze and sold it, good as it was. I have the Aeolus and I enjoy it, but as an alternative, not a substitute. So yes, I will damn well pair the HD 600 with what I think is the best amp I can afford.