[flaquito]

PSA - John Darko has posted his YouTube review:
Wunderbar! RME's ADI-2 DAC FS is *the* DAC to beat at €1K:
Have to wait to watch it myself

 

[Slaphead]

I don't get why to add such a functionality..

OK, I tend to find quite a few youtube/dailymotion etc videos of interest to me where the left and right channels are out of phase - don't ask me why. You can listen to them, but it's uncomfortable. Switching to mono does less than help as it makes the audio inaudible (the LR channels are effectively cancelling each other out). So, being able to switch polarity on one or the other channel is an absolute godsend.

 

[CaptainFantastic]

PSA - John Darko has posted his YouTube review:
Wunderbar! RME's ADI-2 DAC FS is *the* DAC to beat at €1K:
Have to wait to watch it myself

There are a few mistakes in this video, for example stating that it pairs exceptionally well with the HD-650. It has been stated here numerous times that the HD-650 is NOT a good match with the relatively flat presentation of the RME DAC.

Also, did he really admit to ordering from Thomann with the clear intention to test it (so more than just see if it's good enough for him, but rather to get his use out of it, make money with the review) and then return it? I personally find that unethical and frankly disgusting. When we order brand new things and pay for them we have to wonder if the merchant is honest enough to always sell returned items as B-Stock. Thomann has a lot of B stock headphones, but I note that it has no RME B-stock units for sale. I am not questioning Thomann per se, I've had good experiences with them except for the trash way they packaged an item once (and failed to apologize, they said "well, is it broken?"), but I felt disgusted enough by the practice to type this. There.

But yeah, life is grand. The ADI-2 is amazing.

 

[technobear]

There are a few mistakes in this video, for example stating that it pairs exceptionally well with the HD-650. It has been stated here numerous times that the HD-650 is NOT a good match with the relatively flat presentation of the RME DAC.

Rubbish! One person only has stated this. The fact that he has stated it a thousand times doesn't make it true (and it isn't).

 

[gimmeheadroom]

There are a few mistakes in this video, for example stating that it pairs exceptionally well with the HD-650. It has been stated here numerous times that the HD-650 is NOT a good match with the relatively flat presentation of the RME DAC.

Also, did he really admit to ordering from Thomann with the clear intention to test it (so more than just see if it's good enough for him, but rather to get his use out of it, make money with the review) and then return it? I personally find that unethical and frankly disgusting. When we order brand new things and pay for them we have to wonder if the merchant is honest enough to always sell returned items as B-Stock. Thomann has a lot of B stock headphones, but I note that it has no RME B-stock units for sale. I am not questioning Thomann per se, I've had good experiences with them except for the trash way they packaged an item once (and failed to apologize, they said "well, is it broken?"), but I felt disgusted enough by the practice to type this. There.

But yeah, life is grand. The ADI-2 is amazing.

I agree. It is a superb DAC with so many amazing features but it does not drive the HD 600s (and by extension the 650s) well. It probably doesn't swing enough voltage.

Rubbish! One person only has stated this. The fact that he has stated it a thousand times doesn't make it true (and it isn't).

It's easy to prove. Listen to a pair of 600/650 out of the RME and then listen to them out of an appropriate amp driven by the RME. It's not because of the RME's sonic qualities. It's because the RME doesn't have enough amp.

That this should surprise anybody is what's surprising. Very few dacamps can drive 300 ohm dynamics well.

 

[whistlebug23]

Fish outta water here (obviously), but I quite like the sound of my HD600 through the ADI-2. I think there's a little to be desired, but I'm content. At the risk of being obtuse/abrasive, am I to think that I need to get the ADI-2 and a dedicated amp? Sounds like a JDS Atom stack would be more than sufficient, no?

 

[gimmeheadroom]

Fish outta water here (obviously), but I quite like the sound of my HD600 through the ADI-2. I think there's a little to be desired, but I'm content. At the risk of being obtuse/abrasive, am I to think that I need to get the ADI-2 and a dedicated amp? Sounds like a JDS Atom stack would be more than sufficient, no?

I think you can be quite happy with something you think is fine as long as you don't go looking for trouble

Unless something is terribly wrong, the only way you know there is more to go is by comparison. It is known about the HD 600 that they scale tremendously. They sound better and better as you listen to them out of better and better (and more powerful) amps. If you're fine with how your gear sounds consider yourself fortunate and you're done. If not, there is very likely a lot more listening pleasure available with the RME driving a better amp. Tube OTL amps are a particularly good match for most high impedance dynamics including these Sennheisers. And it seems to be one of the main reasons is that they supply enough voltage.

 

[technobear]

I agree. It is a superb DAC with so many amazing features but it does not drive the HD 600s (and by extension the 650s) well. It probably doesn't swing enough voltage.

It's easy to prove. Listen to a pair of 600/650 out of the RME and then listen to them out of an appropriate amp driven by the RME. It's not because of the RME's sonic qualities. It's because the RME doesn't have enough amp.

That this should surprise anybody is what's surprising. Very few dacamps can drive 300 ohm dynamics well.

As usual you seem to be assuming that all 300 ohm headphones are the same (not true). The HD600 and HD650 are rather inefficient compared to newer designs. That much is true. However the ADI-2 DAC has no trouble swinging enough voltage for the 600 ohm T1. The latter is a more efficient design and sounds glorious out of the ADI-2 DAC.

Whilst you might wish for more power with the HD650, it is incorrect to say that the ADI-2 DAC can't drive 300 ohm headphones. Impedance is only half of the story.

 

[gimmeheadroom]

As usual you seem to be assuming that all 300 ohm headphones are the same (not true). The HD600 and HD650 are rather inefficient compared to newer designs. That much is true. However the ADI-2 DAC has no trouble swinging enough voltage for the 600 ohm T1. The latter is a more efficient design and sounds glorious out of the ADI-2 DAC.

Whilst you might wish for more power with the HD650, it is incorrect to say that the ADI-2 DAC can't drive 300 ohm headphones. Impedance is only half of the story.

You're wrong that I'm assuming anything and you could have said it in a more gentlemanly manner. I have noticed a significant decline in decorum on this forum lately.

You're right, certainly efficiency has more influence on how hard headphones are to drive than impedance. Still, it is valid to say in general that the RME does not drive high impedance dynamics well.

I don't mean to say that the RME does a bad job with high impedance dynamics in the abstract. I mean to say that when you compare how these headphones sound out of the RME to how they sound out of the RME driving an appropriate amp, you quickly realize there is a lot of room for improvement. It is not even a criticism of the RME. I don't expect a dacamp to be able to drive anything well. I do expect a standalone headamp to do that, so I prefer separates.

 

[flaquito]

Also, did he really admit to ordering from Thomann with the clear intention to test it (so more than just see if it's good enough for him, but rather to get his use out of it, make money with the review) and then return it? I personally find that unethical and frankly disgusting.

I agree. He says he didn’t ask RME directly. But with a YouTube subscriber count of around 150k, RME may well have supported him. Plus quick postage as both John and RME are in Germany. Also in this episode he says he took a punt and bought one. Not such a punt if you intend to return it..

Anyway, aside from this, I must say I really enjoy the laid back approach to his reviews

 

[wantan]

OK, I tend to find quite a few youtube/dailymotion etc videos of interest to me where the left and right channels are out of phase - don't ask me why. You can listen to them, but it's uncomfortable. Switching to mono does less than help as it makes the audio inaudible (the LR channels are effectively cancelling each other out). So, being able to switch polarity on one or the other channel is an absolute godsend.

Could you post a sample or two, I'd love to try this. I find the polarity switch very usefull, too, but have never used the "right - left" option so far.

Tube OTL amps are a particularly good match for most high impedance dynamics including these Sennheisers. And it seems to be one of the main reasons is that they supply enough voltage.

The RME on high power has 10V with 300Ohms if I read the manual correctly. It should be able to power the HD650 to reach 120db, so it has sufficient headroom available even for the most demanding tasks. I hope I don't have these numbers wrong.
It's an interesting discussion, I've disliked the RME headphone output for quite some time but eventually noticed that is sounds fine actually. Its just very clear and clean. So I'm doubtful about an absolute lack of driving ability.
Another factor with headphones could be that higher voltage rails sound better with high impedance headphones.

 

[gimmeheadroom]

Could you post a sample or two, I'd love to try this. I find the polarity switch very usefull, too, but have never used the "right - left" option so far.



The RME on high power has 10V with 300Ohms if I read the manual correctly. It should be able to power the HD650 to reach 120db, so it has sufficient headroom available even for the most demanding tasks. I hope I don't have these numbers wrong.
It's an interesting discussion, I've disliked the RME headphone output for quite some time but eventually noticed that is sounds fine actually. Its just very clear and clean. So I'm doubtful about an absolute lack of driving ability.
Another factor with headphones could be that higher voltage rails sound better with high impedance headphones.

There is no absolute lack. Everything is relative. In my experience you need 15V for the 600 to sound great. Fun starts at 12V.

The Sennheiser 600/650/6XX can sound lifeless without enough of the right kind of power even though they get earsplittingly loud.

What known good amps have you compared the 650 out of RME alone to? Without a basis for comparison there is no discussion.

 

[Duncan_McCloud]

There is no absolute lack. Everything is relative. In my experience you need 15V for the 600 to sound great. Fun starts at 12V.

May I ask that if it counts even for HD800S, in your opinion ?

Thanks

 

[whistlebug23]

I think you can be quite happy with something you think is fine as long as you don't go looking for trouble

I certainly don't want to cause any trouble, I like this crowd!

I've said it once and I'll say it again... I'm too much of a casual at this stage in my hobby to know how voltage, impedance, etc. affect my experience. It's something I'll grasp with experience and time.

 

[wantan]

There is no absolute lack. Everything is relative. In my experience you need 15V for the 600 to sound great. Fun starts at 12V.

The Sennheiser 600/650/6XX can sound lifeless without enough of the right kind of power even though they get earsplittingly loud.

What known good amps have you compared the 650 out of RME alone to? Without a basis for comparison there is no discussion.

I don't put too much importance into amp differences these days personally but I have a Phonitor e, a Corda Classic FF and a Corda Jazz FF. All of these manage 15+V. The differences increases depending on listening volume for me. Considering the nearly 500Ohm of a HD650 in the bass 12-15V is a reasonable number if you listen to 80-90db. I'm more at 70-80db, this is quite fine for the RME. Listening louder reduces slam and soundstage and increases fatigue if you don't have the headroom, which should be 40db to be on the safe side.