Review: Spiral Ear SE 5-way Reference - A new level of resolution? (Review posted 5/15/12)
Aug 14, 2017 at 4:31 AM Post #2,446 of 2,566
Hello there...

I may be open to allow for some impressions other than myself but let's see what Grzegorz has to say about my ear impressions when it gets to him.

Untill then, what i sent to him has been stuck in transit for a WHOLE 2 WEEKS and it's only being delivered to SE as im typing this out so hopefully i don't jinx it.

Till then, my fingers are crossed .

Here's hoping that Master G gets the impressions in good shape and that he approves
 
Aug 14, 2017 at 4:33 AM Post #2,447 of 2,566
Hello there...

I may be open to allow for some impressions other than myself but let's see what Grzegorz has to say about my ear impressions when it gets to him.

Untill then, what i sent to him has been stuck in transit for a WHOLE 2 WEEKS and it's only being delivered to SE as im typing this out so hopefully i don't jinx it.

Till then, my fingers are crossed .

Here's hoping that Master G gets the impressions in good shape and that he approves

Oh, are you getting a pair right now? That's great! Please let me know how it goes and PM me if you're willing to go through with the meet-up idea. I'd very much appreciate it. Thanks!
 
Aug 14, 2017 at 5:59 AM Post #2,448 of 2,566
Hey guys!

As most of you probably know, the SE5U is on it's way to attaining another #1 spot in an IEM shoot-out, this time being @flinkenick's Ranking The Stars. Because of this, interest in the SE5U has skyrocketed, especially among my friends and I here in South-East Asia. Since there are no demo units of the SE5U at all and the only people who have heard them are you guys (owners), I'd like to know if anyone here lives in the SEA region and is willing to arrange sort-of a meet-up or demo tour of some sort. My friends and I are mainly located in Singapore (personally, I live in Jakarta, Indonesia, but I visit Singapore very frequently), and it'd be really cool if all of us could get somewhat of an idea of what this mysterious IEM sounds like, and maybe provide impressions (with disclaimers of course that our auditions were with force-fit units and therefore should be taken with a huge pile of salt *ahem* @Mimouille *ahem*) to those who are just as curious as we are. Now, I know that it'll be rather difficult trusting a bunch of strangers with a CIEM that you've purchased with your hard-earned money, but we are very open to discussion of how this meet-up/demo tour will be handled. I really appreciate any help I can get, cheers!

EDIT: I just received word from Calvin of Music Sanctuary, one of the biggest CIEM stores in the world, that he's willing to support the meet-up/tour should it come to fruition. I haven't really gone into specifics with him yet, but I'm guessing this means shipping, all auditioning/testing, and care of the product will be monitored and handled by MS. Thanks!

Regards,
Daniel
It has a classic audiophile tuning that might be too warm and dark for someone plus no sparkle up top.
 
Aug 14, 2017 at 6:26 AM Post #2,449 of 2,566
It has a classic audiophile tuning that might be too warm and dark for someone plus no sparkle up top.

That's really the problem, though. These words have little meaning when not put in context. I find reviews most useful when put against a reference, may it be real life, other IEMs, etc. This is why I enjoy Nic's shootout, because all 17 IEMs are reviewed by one person, and therefore Nic is the constant.

We ran into this problem in the Ranking the Stars thread where perfect midrange placement for you is a bit recessed to me. Midrange placement is also dependent, sometimes, on the listening volumes we use. In light of there being too many variables, and because I believe blind buys are ultra risky, an audition is the most ideal thing to have, even if it's in a non-ideal scenario such as a force-fit.

For example, it seems you've received your SE5U already based on your comments, so how would you compare it to an IEM that I'm very familiar with, such as the Aether? That would be much more helpful. Thanks!
 
Aug 14, 2017 at 6:41 AM Post #2,450 of 2,566
Oh, are you getting a pair right now? That's great! Please let me know how it goes and PM me if you're willing to go through with the meet-up idea. I'd very much appreciate it. Thanks!
Yes I did Daniel and honestly I am very very contented with my set-up right now and the SE5U is a luxury (I count myself very blessed).

Whether I like it's signature or not i guess it wasn't a factor I even considered. Honestly, it's just about me throwing caution into the wind and just wanna move on without ever thinking about this unicorn .

Also, I do not think much about force fitting someone else's ciem to get any impression. At the end of the day , in all honesty (and I'm not trying to brag) , the money can be earned back.

I just want this SE5U monkey off my back . I hope this makes sense . :beerchug:
 
Aug 14, 2017 at 6:48 AM Post #2,451 of 2,566
That's really the problem, though. These words have little meaning when not put in context. I find reviews most useful when put against a reference, may it be real life, other IEMs, etc. This is why I enjoy Nic's shootout, because all 17 IEMs are reviewed by one person, and therefore Nic is the constant.

We ran into this problem in the Ranking the Stars thread where perfect midrange placement for you is a bit recessed to me. Midrange placement is also dependent, sometimes, on the listening volumes we use. In light of there being too many variables, and because I believe blind buys are ultra risky, an audition is the most ideal thing to have, even if it's in a non-ideal scenario such as a force-fit.

For example, it seems you've received your SE5U already based on your comments, so how would you compare it to an IEM that I'm very familiar with, such as the Aether? That would be much more helpful. Thanks!
When I read the 17 IEM test (from Nic), I would add that it is not the kind of music style you are listening to ... so Nic said he was testing the IEMs on pop, rock and EDM music, and I'm listening to classical, vocal and jazz music.
There may be significant differences from this ... I think ...
 
Aug 14, 2017 at 7:50 AM Post #2,452 of 2,566
Yes I did Daniel and honestly I am very very contented with my set-up right now and the SE5U is a luxury (I count myself very blessed).

Whether I like it's signature or not i guess it wasn't a factor I even considered. Honestly, it's just about me throwing caution into the wind and just wanna move on without ever thinking about this unicorn .

Also, I do not think much about force fitting someone else's ciem to get any impression. At the end of the day , in all honesty (and I'm not trying to brag) , the money can be earned back.

I just want this SE5U monkey off my back . I hope this makes sense . :beerchug:

I understand this very much, trust me. I too am in your shoes and considering whether or not the splurge on an SE5U is worth quenching my curiosity at the risk of me completely hating it :D Anyways, keep me posted if you're still interested in the meet-up. Thanks :)

When I read the 17 IEM test (from Nic), I would add that it is not the kind of music style you are listening to ... so Nic said he was testing the IEMs on pop, rock and EDM music, and I'm listening to classical, vocal and jazz music.
There may be significant differences from this ... I think ...

Well, musical preference isn't a variable when I'm reading Nic's reviews. This is because:

1) Nic usually describes an IEM's properties as they are. For example, a mid-bass that's north of neutral would be north of neutral whether in rap music or country; it would just have different effects. An excited upper-midrange will remain the same whether in classical music or pop music; in the former, it would boost clarity, imaging, impart a brighter-than-natural tone, etc. and cause sibilance on vocals in the latter.

2) I buy IEMs based on their signatures, not how they react to different kinds of music. I can pretty much extrapolate how the signature they carry reacts to the music I listen to based on experience, and so when reading Nic's reviews, all I have to do is use an IEM I'm familiar with as a base line, understand his definitons of neutral, warm, etc. and see how the IEM I'm interested in differs from the base line.

I hope this makes sense, it took me quite a while to put all of this into somewhat comprehensible words :D
 
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Aug 14, 2017 at 9:53 AM Post #2,453 of 2,566
IME, rock, EDM, pop, or some modern electronic music is difficult due to the recording qualities in general. When people say that their equipment is trasparent, so some music shows it's ugly side is bunch of useless bull, since quality recordings output good quality generally. Audiophile recordings are meant to sound good in general, and they typically use them as demos to impress.

For example, the nasty 6k peak that HD800 had, people tried to rationize by saying the headphones are transparent.

Also, headphone makers can tune to make things sound smooth, but not transparent.

It's rather difficult to tune something that makes anything sound transparent and good. There's something magical about an iem that can do that.
 
Aug 14, 2017 at 12:02 PM Post #2,454 of 2,566
This is why I enjoy Nic's shootout, because all 17 IEMs are reviewed by one person, and therefore Nic is the constant.
Well, if he doesn't have multiple personalities that is
524405.300.jpg


Kevin has 23, Nic probably only 17 and I think 12 of them like Rick Astley :ksc75smile:

Looking forward to his SE5U review and more impressions by other members over here in the near future.
 
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Aug 14, 2017 at 12:05 PM Post #2,455 of 2,566
Well, if he doesn't have multiple personalities that is
524405.300.jpg


Kevin has 23, Nic probably only 17 and I think 12 of them like Rick Astley :ksc75smile:

Looking forward to his SE5U review and more impressions by other members over here in the near future.

Best movie Shyamalan's done in years. Hoping he doesn't screw it up with Unbreakable 2 though :wink: Agreed, I'm beginning to think Nic's obsession with Astley is something more... deep-seeded. Regardless, whatever personality ends up reviewing the SE5U, I'll definitely be on the lookout.
 
Aug 14, 2017 at 12:13 PM Post #2,456 of 2,566
Agreed, I'm beginning to think Nic's obsession with Astley is something more... deep-seeded.
That's just a mild case of reviewer meltdown or, to give the full medical term for this condition, "Astleyitis". :D
 
Aug 15, 2017 at 2:09 AM Post #2,457 of 2,566
I understand this very much, trust me. I too am in your shoes and considering whether or not the splurge on an SE5U is worth quenching my curiosity at the risk of me completely hating it :D Anyways, keep me posted if you're still interested in the meet-up. Thanks :)



Well, musical preference isn't a variable when I'm reading Nic's reviews. This is because:

1) Nic usually describes an IEM's properties as they are. For example, a mid-bass that's north of neutral would be north of neutral whether in rap music or country; it would just have different effects. An excited upper-midrange will remain the same whether in classical music or pop music; in the former, it would boost clarity, imaging, impart a brighter-than-natural tone, etc. and cause sibilance on vocals in the latter.

2) I buy IEMs based on their signatures, not how they react to different kinds of music. I can pretty much extrapolate how the signature they carry reacts to the music I listen to based on experience, and so when reading Nic's reviews, all I have to do is use an IEM I'm familiar with as a base line, understand his definitons of neutral, warm, etc. and see how the IEM I'm interested in differs from the base line.

I hope this makes sense, it took me quite a while to put all of this into somewhat comprehensible words :D

I think differently ...
In general, pop and EDM music are produced electronically. They are not natural sounds. Natural sounds can be said at a chamber recording on a chamber music concert. (Just one example). Here are the frequencies of the primary and the resulting (resonance frequencies, reflected sounds ... etc) of acoustic instruments. It's complicated, I do not get into it in detail.
However, all elements of electronic music are all artificial. Artificial sense of space, frequencies, notes. Here, the overharmonics (I do not know the exact expression maybee overtone) are not created by space, but the machine creates certain sound effects that we perceive as space.

These two things are not equal and they do not sound the same ... this is my opinion.

Sorry for my english...
 
Aug 15, 2017 at 3:02 AM Post #2,458 of 2,566
I think differently ...
In general, pop and EDM music are produced electronically. They are not natural sounds. Natural sounds can be said at a chamber recording on a chamber music concert. (Just one example). Here are the frequencies of the primary and the resulting (resonance frequencies, reflected sounds ... etc) of acoustic instruments. It's complicated, I do not get into it in detail.
However, all elements of electronic music are all artificial. Artificial sense of space, frequencies, notes. Here, the overharmonics (I do not know the exact expression maybee overtone) are not created by space, but the machine creates certain sound effects that we perceive as space.

These two things are not equal and they do not sound the same ... this is my opinion.

Sorry for my english...

Uhh... I think we're misunderstanding each other here. I totally agree with what you're saying, and my reply to you was never about how all music is the same or about generalising aspects of music in general. What I'm saying is, when you're listening to an IEM, it will always impart its signature onto the music you're listening to. Now, because all music is different (like you said, synthetic instruments vs. real instruments, simulated studio environment vs. actual acoustic chambers, etc.) the reaction between the music and the IEM's signature will always be different.

For example, if I'm listening to rap music with 808 beats and a thumping bass line, an IEM with a heftier and more impactful low-end would accentuate this, making the track very fun to listen to; a positive effect IMO. On the other hand, if I use the same bassy IEM to listen to a jazz recording, suddenly the upright bass is at the forefront of the mix and the vocals are not as audible, or the tonality of the vocals become more chesty and coloured, or the piano suddenly sounds darker; a mixed or negative effect IMO.

When I'm reading Nic's reviews, they're written in such a way that they describe the IEM's signature and not how they react to specific genres of music (most of the time at least), and so, because I can use other IEMs I'm familiar with that he's reviewed as a reference, I can infer how the IEM he's reviewing will react to my music. For example, in his Warbler Prelude review, regarding the treble he wrote, "Similar to iems as the Maestro V2 or UE18+, it’s a tuning resulting from dipping the lower treble region in order to benefit the general tone, as well the timbre of the treble itself. Even so, its warmer tone might come across as laidback, especially for listeners accustomed to brighter signatures."

Now, he could've substituted this with something like, "When listening to rock music heavily-laden with cymbals, they don't sound as exciting or energetic as something like the Jomo Samba. When listening to cellos in classical music, you won't necessarily feel the tension of the bow, but the note played will ring through with great body and tone," but that isn't as thorough and descriptive as what he actually wrote. It will leave the reader wondering, "Does that mean its treble is rolled-off? Is it merely attenuated? What part of the treble is attenuated such that it sounds that way?" Nic's reviews are written such that I can imagine what the IEM sounds like compared to other IEMs I have and think, "Oh, so the Prelude would not be as bright as my Zeus-XR, but its mid-bass has more impact, which would make it more suitable for pop music and older recordings than the XR. The XR would also be more transparent when listening to classical, while the beautiful tonality of the Prelude would make it more soulful or emotional," without Nic even having to spell it out.

In conclusion, I 1,000,000,000% agree with you that genres of music are entirely unique to one another and deliver aspects of music in very different ways. As someone who's had to record, mix, and master recordings in several different genres as college projects, part of my grade was to make sure each genre sounded distinct and to not confuse the listener by mastering my Pop project with tons of dynamic range, or compressing the crap out of my Jazz recording, or recording drums for my Rock project with minimalist mic-ing techniques, etc. It's these differences in fact, that make IEMs react differently and seem both good and bad when heard with varying genres of music. However, once you isolate the IEM's signature from the music, you can get a greater sense of whether or not you'd like the IEM based on how similar or different it is from IEMs you've heard in the past, and also estimate how well it would reproduce the music you listen to.

I sincerely hope we're not trailing off into further depths of confusion, and I wish to derail this thread no further, but I pray you see where I'm coming from :)
 
Aug 15, 2017 at 6:09 AM Post #2,459 of 2,566
Uhh... I think we're misunderstanding each other here. I totally agree with what you're saying, and my reply to you was never about how all music is the same or about generalising aspects of music in general. What I'm saying is, when you're listening to an IEM, it will always impart its signature onto the music you're listening to. Now, because all music is different (like you said, synthetic instruments vs. real instruments, simulated studio environment vs. actual acoustic chambers, etc.) the reaction between the music and the IEM's signature will always be different.

For example, if I'm listening to rap music with 808 beats and a thumping bass line, an IEM with a heftier and more impactful low-end would accentuate this, making the track very fun to listen to; a positive effect IMO. On the other hand, if I use the same bassy IEM to listen to a jazz recording, suddenly the upright bass is at the forefront of the mix and the vocals are not as audible, or the tonality of the vocals become more chesty and coloured, or the piano suddenly sounds darker; a mixed or negative effect IMO.

When I'm reading Nic's reviews, they're written in such a way that they describe the IEM's signature and not how they react to specific genres of music (most of the time at least), and so, because I can use other IEMs I'm familiar with that he's reviewed as a reference, I can infer how the IEM he's reviewing will react to my music. For example, in his Warbler Prelude review, regarding the treble he wrote, "Similar to iems as the Maestro V2 or UE18+, it’s a tuning resulting from dipping the lower treble region in order to benefit the general tone, as well the timbre of the treble itself. Even so, its warmer tone might come across as laidback, especially for listeners accustomed to brighter signatures."

Now, he could've substituted this with something like, "When listening to rock music heavily-laden with cymbals, they don't sound as exciting or energetic as something like the Jomo Samba. When listening to cellos in classical music, you won't necessarily feel the tension of the bow, but the note played will ring through with great body and tone," but that isn't as thorough and descriptive as what he actually wrote. It will leave the reader wondering, "Does that mean its treble is rolled-off? Is it merely attenuated? What part of the treble is attenuated such that it sounds that way?" Nic's reviews are written such that I can imagine what the IEM sounds like compared to other IEMs I have and think, "Oh, so the Prelude would not be as bright as my Zeus-XR, but its mid-bass has more impact, which would make it more suitable for pop music and older recordings than the XR. The XR would also be more transparent when listening to classical, while the beautiful tonality of the Prelude would make it more soulful or emotional," without Nic even having to spell it out.

In conclusion, I 1,000,000,000% agree with you that genres of music are entirely unique to one another and deliver aspects of music in very different ways. As someone who's had to record, mix, and master recordings in several different genres as college projects, part of my grade was to make sure each genre sounded distinct and to not confuse the listener by mastering my Pop project with tons of dynamic range, or compressing the crap out of my Jazz recording, or recording drums for my Rock project with minimalist mic-ing techniques, etc. It's these differences in fact, that make IEMs react differently and seem both good and bad when heard with varying genres of music. However, once you isolate the IEM's signature from the music, you can get a greater sense of whether or not you'd like the IEM based on how similar or different it is from IEMs you've heard in the past, and also estimate how well it would reproduce the music you listen to.

I sincerely hope we're not trailing off into further depths of confusion, and I wish to derail this thread no further, but I pray you see where I'm coming from :)


I understand perfectly what you write, which is obviously the creation of an inertial frame of reference.

But I say that there is no standard, master in artificial music (perfect sound reproduction) since the sound is created artificially, it is not related to the world around us. Therefore, everybody else has a good reproduction in this case.
If, on the other hand (in an optimal case), you are listening to a live audio record, then there is an etalon, standard (which is closer to or reaches the live recording).
In the latter case, there is a majority consensus, while the subjective inner world of each one creates the appropriate standard for it.

This polemy is dishonest, similar to the known question of materialism vs idealism:
Whether existence determines consciousness or vice versa. (for example Marx vs Hegel)

Sorry for my english...but I'm an idealist:slight_smile:
 
Aug 15, 2017 at 6:30 AM Post #2,460 of 2,566
I understand perfectly what you write, which is obviously the creation of an inertial frame of reference.

But I say that there is no standard, master in artificial music (perfect sound reproduction) since the sound is created artificially, it is not related to the world around us. Therefore, everybody else has a good reproduction in this case.
If, on the other hand (in an optimal case), you are listening to a live audio record, then there is an etalon, standard (which is closer to or reaches the live recording).
In the latter case, there is a majority consensus, while the subjective inner world of each one creates the appropriate standard for it.

This polemy is dishonest, similar to the known question of materialism vs idealism:
Whether existence determines consciousness or vice versa. (for example Marx vs Hegel)

Sorry for my english...but I'm an idealist:slight_smile:

But then, this thinking only applies if ultimate realism is the goal to be achieved here. Although I very much strive for realistic reproductions of sound from my IEMs, I also need them to align to my personal tastes, my personal definitions of realistic/reference/fun, etc., and that is achievable through the precautions I take when reading reviews by someone like Nic, who happens to have similar tastes, definitions of sound, and IEMs as I do, if a direct audition of the IEM is not available to me, e.g. the SE5U. Artificial music, although filled with synthetic instruments, effects, etc., can still become either pleasing to the ear or downright harsh or terribly muddy depending on the IEM you use; it doesn't automatically become irrelevant simply because it can't be compared to real-life instruments and therefore doesn't have an "absolute reference". Using live performances as a reference is also tricky because you have to have attended both the live concert and heard the recording of that concert, and then compare the recording to your memory of the concert, assuming your aural memory is 100% accurate. Another problem is what you're hearing as an audience member in a live concert is sound directly from the instrument plus what is captured through the mics/DI and reproduced through the PA system plus reverberations and frequency response changes caused by the acoustic, while what you hear in the recording is captured directly from the mics/DI and then further mixed and mastered, so differences will definitely be present. You do know that a lot of live concerts are recorded with close-mic-ing of the instrument, and that reverb is more likely to have been added in post, right? So, I believe, in the grand scheme of things, it's more efficient (to both the mind and body) to form your own internal frame of reference as to what sounds "good" to you (whether that means realistic, fun, bright, warm, or, in my case, somewhere in between all of that) and understand what qualities in an IEM can give you that. But, as always, YMMV :wink:
 
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