[RedBull]

Quote:

Originally Posted by feifan /img/forum/go_quote.gif Canman, I really like the m902 with the GS1K (via optical and computer as source), and the HD650 isn't far behind. But for whatever reason, I can't get the HD800 to synergize with the Grace. I haven't spent much time testing this combo so take my impression with a grain of salt. The next time I do, I'll definitely set the volume even lower to see if that makes a difference. I'm anxious to hear your impressions and looking forward to your take, preliminary or otherwise.

feifan, could you share what is missing or what's 'wrong' with the synergy between HD800 and the m902? ie. not so dynamic, recess mids, muffled or something? considering m902 is one of my wish list 'cool' stuff. Thanks.

Just want to get my idea right about your preference of sound. So you like GS1K signature more than HD650? From then I can set my ruler right, if you say just nice then maybe it's too much for me and if you say not sparkling enough then it might be just 'right' for me

I notice my volume level is far lower than yours. Usually I play only around 9 o'clock, or less (more often at 8.30), (ok, sometimes 10 o'clock, if I want to get more thrill, but usually only for 1-2 songs) with Solo -> HD650, and Solo is not one of the most powerful amp discussed in this thread. Is that right?

 

[John Willett]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Canman /img/forum/go_quote.gif My plan is to use the m902 with the HD800.

This is what I'm using - Grace m902B with the HD 800 - no complaints - very happy and don't plan to change.

 

[Skylab]

Quote:

Originally Posted by holland /img/forum/go_quote.gif All headphones (and speakers) do this. It's natural for sound waves reaching the ear. This is why Skylab has calibrated his review to a specific volume setting, and how he calibrated to that specific level. This is why it is very important to note it.

THANK YOU, Holland, for helping me to to make that very important point.

Very small changes in volume have very substantial impacts on how humans perceive sound. This is described by the Fletcher-Munson curve, which depicts the manner in which human hearing changes its sensitivity to certain frequencies as volume increases or decreases.

One cannot have ANY meaningful comparison of anything without matching levels. That does not mean one cannot comment on the sound of something. But comparing any two audio setups of any kind, without level matching, is not really all that valid, as far as a comparison goes.

It is interesting to note, however, that in general, what one would experience at lower volumes is less bass and LESS treble, not more. One of the reasons I use 80dbA, and not a lower figure, is so that bass should be fully developed, while maintaining a safe listening level.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ctemkin /img/forum/go_quote.gif I see this as largely corroborating what Skylab found. I have a high end source, and a number of headfiers have reported that my amp is a good fit with the HD 800, and so I think that what I heard represents good overall synergy with the HD 800. Anyone considering the HD 800 should be aware that its presentation of bass and treble might not be to his or her liking. That said, I differ from Skylab in that I think the HD 800 is fully worth its $1,400 price, and it is now what I reach for first. But I will still grab the UEs when I want greater bass presence; nothing I am ashamed of there.

Thank you for your comments, ctemkin. It's nice to continue to have more datapoints like this, that contain enough detail to be helpful to readers, as yours does.

K3oxkjo, I enjoyed your review as well (in your own thread), and Fiefan, it was nice to see you spend almost as much time actually commenting on the HD800 in your mini-review post as you originally did commenting on my review methodology

Thanks for sharing your thoughts on the HD800's sound.

 

[Beagle]

Quote:

Originally Posted by feifan /img/forum/go_quote.gif Deep, punchy, defined, accurate -- but not in your face or up front unless the arrangement calls for the emphasis. Uncle Erik explains this beautifully in his post. We have "The Great HD800 Divide" because some (majority?) prefer their bass consistently up front and others (minority?) prefer a wider dynamic range with bass moving back and forth, soft and loud, without losing its integrity.

Sounds good. With a "spacious" headphone, I prefer the bass to be in the basement, so to speak, as a foundation and not sharing occupancy in the living room with the midrange. Just a nice thing for the rest of the spectrum to sit on. A bass-head I'm not. I like it to show up only when called for, not a bass note on everything.

Quote:

Originally Posted by feifan /img/forum/go_quote.gif The K701 doesn't have the dynamic range of the HD800, but its neutrality is excellent. On another note, of the amps I own, at a decent level, I'm getting the most bass emphasis and definition in the K701 from the Shanling PH100. Great for rock..

I have the Shanling too. How does the HD800 sound through it? Enough gain and power?

 

[feifan]

Quote:

Originally Posted by RedBull /img/forum/go_quote.gif feifan, could you share what is missing or what's 'wrong' with the synergy between HD800 and the m902? ie. not so dynamic, recess mids, muffled or something? considering m902 is one of my wish list 'cool' stuff. Thanks.

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Willett /img/forum/go_quote.gif This is what I'm using - Grace m902B with the HD 800 - no complaints - very happy and don't plan to change.

RedBull and John: I'm not sure what the difference is between the m902 and m902B, but I have the former. With the GS1K, it's musically very close to perfection. It's also great with the HD650 and K701. Right now, I have the HD800 lined up with the m902 (computer as source, USB), and when I take it down to 65.5 (vol), the mids and highs aren't as bright. (With the GS1K, I normally listen at 69-72.) But the overall effect is anemic, e.g., Marta Gomez's “Lucia” (Entre Cada Palabra, 2005, Chesky Records Inc), which sounds warm, dynamic, and musical with the HRD+HD800, is thin with the m902. (I get the same kind of wash out with CCR's "Have You Ever Seen the Rain," which I usually use to test for rock.) After about a half hour at the lower volume, fatigue is beginning to set in. John, some details on your setup for the m902B+HD800?

Quote:

Originally Posted by RedBull /img/forum/go_quote.gif Just want to get my idea right about your preference of sound. So you like GS1K signature more than HD650? From then I can set my ruler right, if you say just nice then maybe it's too much for me and if you say not sparkling enough then it might be just 'right' for me

With the m902, yes, I prefer the GS1K over the HD650. The difference for me is musicality.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RedBull /img/forum/go_quote.gif I notice my volume level is far lower than yours. Usually I play only around 9 o'clock, or less (more often at 8.30), (ok, sometimes 10 o'clock, if I want to get more thrill, but usually only for 1-2 songs) with Solo -> HD650, and Solo is not one of the most powerful amp discussed in this thread. Is that right?

Assuming we're talking about the HeadRoom Desktop -- sorry, I should've made it clear that I have the gain at medium. I'm at around 9 o'clock, too, with the gain at high. At medium, I have much more control over the volume.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skylab /img/forum/go_quote.gif Fiefan, it was nice to see you spend almost as much time actually commenting on the HD800 in your mini-review post as you originally did commenting on my review methodology Thanks for sharing your thoughts on the HD800's sound.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beagle /img/forum/go_quote.gif I have the Shanling too. How does the HD800 sound through it? Enough gain and power?

The HD800 is actually a lot easier to drive than the K701, HD650, and GS1K. With the HD800, the PH100 volume is set to 2.0-2.5. (With the other cans, between 2.5 and 3.0.) Teamed with the SVDAC06 DAC (computer as source, USB), the SQ is very good. If I hadn't heard the HD800 with the HRD, I'd say the synergy with the Shanling is excellent.

 

[HotRod]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hirsch /img/forum/go_quote.gif Wanna bet?? The first amp that I tried the HD800 with was a modified Earmax Pro. The results was no bass. Zero. Headphone rolled off sharply at around 100 Hz. Now, does that mean the headphone had no bass? Well, no. It came back nicely, even in the same amp, by using 6GM8's instead of 6DJ8's (don't try this at home folks, my amp was modded heavily to do this kind of thing, yours wasn't). Dare I add that just about any other headphone I use, particularly R10 and Denon AH-D5000 sound much better, including the low end, with the 6DJ8's? Might it be an impedance issue? Hmmm...EMP with HD-600 seems to work just fine...

Hi Hirsch, I am currently using unmodified EMP with D7GD7 Tubes with Audio Analogue Maestro CD player and HD600 and am thinking of upgrading to HD800 but am concerned with you comments on bass with your modified unit. Have you any additional comments on this, I am really quite keen to upgrade to the other attributes of the HD800 as mentioned by many on this and other threads, and whilst being no basshead I would not be able to live with no bass at all .

 

[schugh]

Can someone point me to some resource or explain to me how to calibrate/match volumes? Especially when you have headphones with different impedences?
I have an X-CAN v3 and also the DAC1 USB and the Headroom Desktop Portable.
I tried a few days ago to compare the HD800 with my other phones (GS1000, D5000, HD650, RS1, sold the K701). I should probably match the levels when comparing.

I was originally going to sell the HD650 and the D5000 and keep the Grados. But now I am starting to think I may sell my GS1000 as it and the HD800 are my two expensive headphones and I can't afford to keep both. But first I should make sure I do a proper comparison between the two so I make the correct decision.

At the moment, I am appreciating the GS1000 more since I got the HD800. For some reason before, I always thought the GS1000 was sometimes not so good. But now when I switch from the HD800 to the GS1000, my usual reaction is "hey, this sounds really good, better then I expected". I am enjoying the HD800 with my XCAN v3, but am currently not sure about the value due to the high price. I am in Canada so the price is higher. I never thought I would pay more for a headphone then the GS1000. How times change.

The only concern I have as a few have noticed, is that the HD800, at least in my combination really only works at higher volumes. It sounds somewhat lifeless at lower volumes when listening to for example "Material - Hallucination Engine". It just worries my if this will harm my hearing, which is not perfect in the first place.

Anyway, If someone could supply an answer to my question, I would appreciate it.

Thanks,

-- Sanjay

 

[raccoon]

Quote:

Originally Posted by kool bubba ice /img/forum/go_quote.gif I have the Yamaha 1800.. It drives the HD800 well?

Yeah I have no issue with it. I have my laptop connected to it via optical cable. The receiver is set to -50dB and that is plenty loud for me. It sounds great in pure direct mode - no hiss at any volume level.

 

[ctemkin]

Quote:

Originally Posted by IPodPJ /img/forum/go_quote.gif Are you using them single ended or balanced with the Apache?

Single-ended, but I have plans to get a balanced cable.

 

[feifan]

RedBull and John: I'm testing the m902 and HD800 synergy right now via optical instead of USB, and the difference is significant. I normally use optical in the m902+GS1K setup. I switched to USB for the trials for reasons that escape me now. Via optical (toslink), the dynamics and overall SQ are excellent. After about 40 minutes, no fatigue.

 

[xenithon]

Hey feifan. Interesting info/impression regarding optical vs. USB. I recall that a similar result was reported on by Stereophile in their review of the Grace, in particular Wes Phillips' impressions. He also had initial hesitation as to the DAC's performance and followed the suggestion to "Ditch the USB connection".

 

[LAMark]

Quote:

Originally Posted by feifan /img/forum/go_quote.gif Right now, I have the HD800 lined up with the m902 (computer as source, USB), and when I take it down to 65.5 (vol), the mids and highs aren't as bright.

Feifan,

Do you have a CDP source to test your setup? Or a DAC to front-end the m902? As I recall from a Stereophile review (Atkinson perhaps?) some consider using the USB input as a weakness for the M902. The DAC in the m902 has also received some criticism so even using the optical digital input may not be optimal. I have my m902 fed from a good CD player connected via the single-ended inputs and in this configuraiton my HD800 rivals the best headphones I've heard and easily bests my HD650 (which sounded fine to me before the HD800).

Mark.

 

[feifan]

Quote:

Originally Posted by schugh /img/forum/go_quote.gif Can someone point me to some resource or explain to me how to calibrate/match volumes? Especially when you have headphones with different impedences? I have an X-CAN v3 and also the DAC1 USB and the Headroom Desktop Portable. I tried a few days ago to compare the HD800 with my other phones (GS1000, D5000, HD650, RS1, sold the K701). I should probably match the levels when comparing.

Hey, Sanjay. You might also want to vary the levels for different cans. From my experience, the HD800 works best at a lower level than, say, the GS1K, K701, and HD650. I have an older model HRD-portable amp. I've never heard the X-CAN v3 and DAC1 USB. I haven't tested the HD800 with the HRDP. (It's hooked up to the TV set.) You might want to experiment with the DAC1's various digital outputs. Assuming that it has optical, coaxial, and USB, you may find significantly different results in a comparison. I'm not sure how similar the DAC1 and m902 are, but I found that optical made a huge difference compared to USB.

Quote:

Originally Posted by schugh /img/forum/go_quote.gif I was originally going to sell the HD650 and the D5000 and keep the Grados. But now I am starting to think I may sell my GS1000 as it and the HD800 are my two expensive headphones and I can't afford to keep both. But first I should make sure I do a proper comparison between the two so I make the correct decision.

A "proper comparison" is crucial. In the last couple hours, I've done a complete flipflop re the m902 synergy with the HD800 and GS1K. I hadn't matched the input, using USB with one and optical with the other. With the optical, the HD800 is dynamically superior to the GS1K.

Quote:

Originally Posted by schugh /img/forum/go_quote.gif At the moment, I am appreciating the GS1000 more since I got the HD800. For some reason before, I always thought the GS1000 was sometimes not so good. But now when I switch from the HD800 to the GS1000, my usual reaction is "hey, this sounds really good, better then I expected". I am enjoying the HD800 with my XCAN v3, but am currently not sure about the value due to the high price. I am in Canada so the price is higher. I never thought I would pay more for a headphone then the GS1000. How times change. The only concern I have as a few have noticed, is that the HD800, at least in my combination really only works at higher volumes. It sounds somewhat lifeless at lower volumes when listening to for example "Material - Hallucination Engine". It just worries my if this will harm my hearing, which is not perfect in the first place. Anyway, If someone could supply an answer to my question, I would appreciate it. Thanks, -- Sanjay

If the dynamics are excellent even at the softest levels, then keep the volume lower than for the GS1K and HD650. If the SQ is still "lifeless," then try a different digital input (USB, opitcal, coaxial).

 

[John Willett]

Quote:

Originally Posted by feifan /img/forum/go_quote.gif RedBull and John: I'm not sure what the difference is between the m902 and m902B, but I have the former. With the GS1K, it's musically very close to perfection. It's also great with the HD650 and K701. Right now, I have the HD800 lined up with the m902 (computer as source, USB), and when I take it down to 65.5 (vol), the mids and highs aren't as bright. (With the GS1K, I normally listen at 69-72.) But the overall effect is anemic, e.g., Marta Gomez's “Lucia” (Entre Cada Palabra, 2005, Chesky Records Inc), which sounds warm, dynamic, and musical with the HRD+HD800, is thin with the m902. (I get the same kind of wash out with CCR's "Have You Ever Seen the Rain," which I usually use to test for rock.) After about a half hour at the lower volume, fatigue is beginning to set in. John, some details on your setup for the m902B+HD800?

OK - the difference between the m902 and m902B is that the "B" version has balanced line outs on TRS jacks instead of unbalanced on phono (cinch) connectors - it's a modification done by Grace - I had my m902 modified to the "B" version.

It *may* be possible to drive balanced headphones from the balanced line outs - but I have not checked this yet.

I find the m902 an unusual beastie in that you tend to have the volume control very high to get a reasonable volume - this is normal for the 902 and a level of 65 I find extremely low - I tend to drive mine in the late 80s / early 90s if I don't have the boost on.

I have never used my 902 via USB as that is limited to 16 bit and 44.1 or 48kHz - I tend to use mine on the optical input or on the XLR AES3 input, normally at 24 bit / 96kHz.

If listening to CD quality off the PC, I have a Cakewalk UA-1G (I used to have an M-Audio Transit but it does not like Vista) and I use that to convert USB to optical. I understand that a Mac optical out is fine to go direct.

I have had the m902 for a couple of years now and use it as my main monitor controller while recording (switching between my headphones <HD 650 until now> and monitors <K+H O110D> on recording sessions) and my initial listening sessions with the HD 800 were all with my original masters as I knew how they sounded in the room with my own ears.



On a slightly different note ..................

I will say that I appreciate Skylab's excellent review - he has done it very professionally; but it is personal as he sees it, as he has stated several times - if you read the review together with Uncle Erik's excellent post I think there is a very balanced view.

It's a shame that people who disagree with Skylab tend to knock rather that posting their own personal review.

Although I can't post my own feelings of the headphones, I will say that in any headphones and loudspeakers I look for reality - something that is going to reproduce the original as close to what it really is as possible. With this, if it is well recorded, I really *can* get lost in the music and will live with the fact that I know that this set-up will highlight bad microphone technique and recording faults - because when it is right it is magic.

 

[Beagle]

Quote:

Originally Posted by feifan /img/forum/go_quote.gif The HD800 is actually a lot easier to drive than the K701, HD650, and GS1K. With the HD800, the PH100 volume is set to 2.0-2.5. (With the other cans, between 2.5 and 3.0.) Teamed with the SVDAC06 DAC (computer as source, USB), the SQ is very good. If I hadn't heard the HD800 with the HRD, I'd say the synergy with the Shanling is excellent.

Thank you!

Ecchh, I'm a gettin' itchy now..