[kunalraiker]

Quote:

Indeed, we need something in between these two sizes...
 

What about a kitchen chopping board,or a wooden plank.

 

[lgm1]

If at first you don't succeed, try, try again.

 
Do owners of the Audio-gd DAC-19 (PCM1704uk) believe it is a worthwhile upgrade over the Marantz SR-8002 DAC (Cirrus Logic CS4382A) for both headphone and 2 channel listening?  Is it common to use an external dac for 2 channel listening for those with similar setups?
 
Do you think the C2 is a solid/worthwhile upgrade over the Marantz headphone out and/or does the synergy between the DAC-19 and C2 via ACSS make it an easy decision to forgo the Marantz headphone out altogether?
 
If my questions belong in a separate thread, please let me know.  I will buy this DAC+AMP combination if it offers a tangible improvement, especially for headphone listening (Sennheiser HD 600 + Denon D2000 or D5000 coming soon).
 
 
 

 

[kunalraiker]

I got a reply from Kingwa on the vibration isolation.
 
You can place the C2 over the DAC19, or place the DAC19 over the C2.
There is no problems.
Kingwa

 

[Olias of Sunhillow]

Quote:

I got a reply from Kingwa on the vibration isolation.
 
You can place the C2 over the DAC19, or place the DAC19 over the C2.
There is no problems.
Kingwa

Which explains why I couldn't find it on his website.

 

 

[slim.a]

Quote:

Slim.a
 
That was a very well thought out, measured and completely honest response, frankly with all the disclaimers and IMHO's you sprinkle throughout anything you comment on I'm a little mystified by the negative responses.  The last impression I get from your excellent reviews is a feeling like your way is the only way, in fact you take great pains to qualify your beliefs as strictly your own but I do subscribe to what you are saying in general because I've spent a lot of time doing the exact same things. The funny thing is, I didn't read it about most of these tweaks elsewhere (30 years ago there were precious few resources for such things let alone decent cables) I just starting experimenting with no foreign preconceived viewpoints (or as you call it an open mind). I think the industry itself (accessories that make wild claims) are mostly to blame here what with the sheer variety of what I would call, way over the line claims/devices as being the largest source of healthy skepticism these days...but that doesn't mean you lump all tweaks in with the dubious ones, that is as silly (IMO) as it is to dismiss all tweaks as quackery or go the opposite direction and claim all as gospel. The truth generally lies in the middle with a lot of this stuff, common sense and science will help with some of them, your ears for the rest (I rely mainly on experience, experiments and long term testing,) Short term evaluation is not reliable enough I have found (especially so with some of the mods I've been perusing the last 2 years).....but there really is no substitute for trying something in house (no substitute for that at all).  I urge others to experiment as much as their hearts desire (within their skill set with any and all ideas, especially the ones you formulate on your own) it's an utterly rewarding, sometimes tragic (we all have our expensive failures) but ultimately illuminating pursuit. Again this is just my opinion folks. Vibration control however, is crucial and based solidly in physics...how this one gets labeled snaky is truly astonishing even if you have nothing but a HS knowledge of physics. Go figure. 

 
I suppose it's human nature of a sort to want tear a strip off ideas that don't jibe with the so called mainstream (what exactly is such a thing, the mainstream, in audio or music for that matter ?).
 
Your comment about the AD OPA's vs the Earth HDAM reminded me of the lengthy and exhaustive experiments Penchum,Sennsay and I went through using various size film caps directly across the + and - pins of the HDAM itself. A tweak recommended by Burson BTW. Some of that speed can be regained by adding a 1uf PIO across the 4 and 8 pins of the HDAM as closely as you can get the cap to them. I know Kingwa uses the box caps tied to ground but I found (as Pench and Sennsay did) that coonecting directly across the 4 & 8 pins with the box caps snipped off works better. It's a subtle but useful mod. It also boosts dynamics a smidgen. Of course the quality of cap doesn't play a crucial role in this application but a cheap high quality film cap will be effective.
 
Give it a try with either a Russian PIO or a Vishay/Roderstein MKP1837 (1uf is best).
 
Peete.

Hi Peete,
 
I highly value your opinion (given your modding and listening experience), and I am glad you understood that I wasn't trying to say.
 
The sad thing about "tweaks" is that there are a lot of overpriced stuff out there, and it also require careful listening for fine tuning. There are some things that work out there and there other things that don't. It is sometimes very difficult to predict what will work in one's specific system because the interaction between different components, cables and accessories are complex.
Those so called tweaks are in fact built in the very high end segment (Goldmund, Esoteric, Ayre...). If you take Goldmund for example, they build all their electronics according to some principles including the "mechanical grounding". Other don't explicitely mention it but when you look at Ayre top mono amps, you can see that it has been carved on a 75-lb billet of aluminum.
Of course, one could argue that it is only for cosmetics reasons, but it seems that many of the good sounding products share similar characteristics (heavy and non resonant enclosures, overbuilt power supplies...).
Instead of ditching my equipment and buying bigger ones, I prefer to work with what I have. But that is just a personal opinion.
 
Your remark regarding "mainstream" in audio is also what I have been asking myself. Some people believe that speakers/headphones are the only major thing that matters in audio. Their explaining is that most blind test have concluded that is impossible to tell apart a $200 amp from a $12,000 (when working withing their power parameters).
Other people draw the mainstream beliefs line to DACs and Amps. Other people draw the line at interconnects, power cables...
Everyone has a different audio history. Because of their different experiences people form an opinion on what is possible to hear and what is definitely not possible to hear, about what makes a big change and what makes a small one.
Personally, the main thing that I have learned so far is to try to listen without a preconceived viewpoint (as you say it). Also, if something doesn't work for me, it doesn't mean necessarily it won't work for others.
At the end of the day, the most important thing is the musical satisfaction we get from our music. Whether it is with $10 earbud or with a $100K+ speaker system, being drawn to the music is what counts, or at least it is what I believe. In my opinion a good system is a system that don't call attention to itself but rather to the music.
 
Regarding the Earth vs AD797, it is interesting that other people have noted the same difference. It is weird that Kingwa didn't apply the mod you are suggesting. However, the other thing that I noticed is that the AD797 becomes more fatiguing to listen to (at high volumes) than the Earth.
I have also to admit that while I have been listening lately to the RCA input, it was mainly to evaluate/compare RCA interconnects.
On long term listening, I am going to let ACSS for neutral listening sessions and RCA for a "colored" opamp like the Moon. Going back and forth between ACSS and RCA using the same cables and "neutral" opamps, it just seems to me the RCA has a boosted contrast ratio which kills some of the fine low level details. It is very subtle, but I personally prefer the slightly more relaxed representation of the ACSS even if it doesn't seem as dynamic as the RCA sometimes.
Thanks for the info on the caps though, I will try that mod at some point.

 

[slim.a]

Quote:

I have read wnough information about vibration control by most of you,even slim.a mentioned that it is about 50% contributor,compared to other accessory tweaks.
 
I would be getting my DAC 19 DSP soon and was planning to stack it under the C-2,feels like it would be a wrong idea,any suggestions members.
 
I have a wooden drawer,not very big therefore cannot stack the two side by side,I could place some material between the two audio gd cases.

Hi Kunalraiker,
 
The 50% ratio I mentioned was for all power related accessories and vibration control devices. It is obviously a rough estimate and doesn't translate to all systems.
One example would be if you have a dedicated line and little equipment that generate noise in close proximity (computers...), you wouldn't need to concentrate as much on power filters and power cords.
The same can be said for vibration control. If by "accident" you happen to be sitting your equipment on a platform that is non resonant and that absorbs vibration, some of the job is already being done for you naturally.

Also, concerning the vibration control, if you look at the pictures of my system, you will see that there are multiple "layers". I am using a special audio rack with spiked feet. The components are sitting on top of maple platforms on boxes filled with sand. The boxes are decouble from the rack by an acrylic shelf and some decoupling dots bought at herbie's audio lab. The DAC, for example is using Yamamoto ebony footers and has 2 herbie's audiolab stabilizers on top. It might seem complicated but it costs far less than the $5K I would have had to pay for audiophile brands racks and vibration accessories. The individual effect of each piece being can be considered as subtle. However, the cumulated effect is huge to my ears. The increase in musicality and low level details were the biggest.

I am not saying that people should try what I did. I am just saying that vibration control can have an effect and there are simple things to do like to avoid resonant surfaces (glass, thin metallic shelfs...).
 
Since the dac19dsp and C2 are plastic feet (with some sort of soft absorbing material), there will be no problem stacking them one of top of the other.
 
Quote:

Something like this?
 
...one for C2, one for DAC19...

It looks like a nice acrylic shelf with sorbothane

 
Quote:

Kingwa used to have a specific warning on his site that advised against stacking the DAC19 and C2, but last time I checked I couldn't find it.
 
Anyway, I tried stacking and didn't like the way they went together. It didn't last long enough for me to study the effects of vibration and heat transfer.

The warning Kingwa gave about stacking equipment was for the ones that use aluminum feet (Roc, Ref-5, Phoenix...). The aluminium feet (non resonant) are what some people would call tweaks.
 
 
Funny thing, I was looking at the warning against stacking the equipment on the audio-gd website, and I found out they came up with a new power filter: http://www.audio-gd.com/Pro/amp/Power%20filter/PowerEN.htm... and I just contacted Kingwa to order one.
The filter has 4 groups of ouputs, and here is what it says on the website: "[size=x-small]In fact, owners can try the different output and compare which is best for personal sense , this is had not rules.[/size]"

 

[slim.a]

Quote:

If at first you don't succeed, try, try again.

 
Do owners of the Audio-gd DAC-19 (PCM1704uk) believe it is a worthwhile upgrade over the Marantz SR-8002 DAC (Cirrus Logic CS4382A) for both headphone and 2 channel listening?  Is it common to use an external dac for 2 channel listening for those with similar setups?
 
Do you think the C2 is a solid/worthwhile upgrade over the Marantz headphone out and/or does the synergy between the DAC-19 and C2 via ACSS make it an easy decision to forgo the Marantz headphone out altogether?
 
If my questions belong in a separate thread, please let me know.  I will buy this DAC+AMP combination if it offers a tangible improvement, especially for headphone listening (Sennheiser HD 600 + Denon D2000 or D5000 coming soon).
 
 
 

It seems that nobody has compared the 2 side by side. So the only thing left to us is speculating.
The Marantz is an AV receiver with a lot of things going on inside. The cost (and attention) dedicated to the dac and headamp section will probably be low.
My personal guess is that it wouldn't perform as well against a dedicated source and amp combo.
The question would be: is it worth the $1000+ investment? If you do a lot of headphone listening, the answer would be yes. If you do it occasionally, the answer might be no.

 

[kunalraiker]

Quote:

 
Funny thing, I was looking at the warning against stacking the equipment on the audio-gd website, and I found out they came up with a new power filter: http://www.audio-gd.com/Pro/amp/Power%20filter/PowerEN.htm... and I just contacted Kingwa to order one.
The filter has 4 groups of ouputs, and here is what it says on the website: "[size=x-small]In fact, owners can try the different output and compare which is best for personal sense , this is had not rules.[/size]"

The filter was only for US users,I was under the feeling it wasn't of any use to us,non US members.

 

[slim.a]

Quote:

The filter was only for US users,I was under the feeling it wasn't of any use to us,non US members.

In fact, I wanted to try their power cords for quite some time. Since the filter will be dedicated to my headfi equipment, I am going to order 2 US power cables (dac and amp) to go to the filter and then a Euro/France power cable from the filter to wall outlet.
I really like the idea of having different levels of filtering and the price is ridiculously cheap in comparison with "audiophile" filters.

 

[realmassy]

I was going to order two custom power cables sending the UK plugs to Kingwa, but now I think I'll order the power filter with standard US plugs, and use one quality UK cable to plug the power filter in the wall.

 

[kunalraiker]

Quote:

I was going to order two custom power cables sending the UK plugs to Kingwa, but now I think I'll order the power filter with standard US plugs, and use one quality UK cable to plug the power filter in the wall.

That seems like a nice idea.
I will wait until he has something for Australia,I feel quality Australia power cable to buy externally will be very expensive.

 

[Currawong]

I just noticed the power filter as well.  I wonder if my comments about the positive effects the Juice Box Jr had on the Ref 3 and Ref 1 especially prompted him to make his own.  I was pondering the cost of building my own unit, since the parts are cheap, but he has done it cheaper than what it would even cost me to build (buying the parts locally)!  Anyway, I have ordered one with 4x 50 Ohm sockets instead of the DC filters as I've never had transformer vibration issues.  What strikes me is the forethought of having two different levels of filtering, which deals with components that can end up sounding a bit dull if used with a power filter.

 

[haloxt]

I'm going to purchase the power filter and compare it to furman ac-215 which I like very much and is about the same going price (~$125 new, ~$75 used, main reason I have 3 ). Furman is highly regarded for studio power conditioners, and I've looked inside the ac-215, it's very well-built and furman believes in all the same stuff serious audiophiles do (vibration, wire gauge, leaving equipment on for improved performance, etc), much of the circuitry is surge protection stuff that try not to limit the current, but the filtering is done linearly across a wide spectrum of frequencies, at least 40dB between 10khz-100khz, >80dB between 100khz-1ghz. Will give the audio-gd conditioner at least a week of continuous use before comparing and without seeing under the hood of the audio-gd power conditioner I get the feeling it will have stiff competition from the ac-215 unless all the surge protection circuitry of the ac-215 is that bad for sound quality.

 

[pategen]

Quote:

If at first you don't succeed, try, try again.

 
Do owners of the Audio-gd DAC-19 (PCM1704uk) believe it is a worthwhile upgrade over the Marantz SR-8002 DAC (Cirrus Logic CS4382A) for both headphone and 2 channel listening?  Is it common to use an external dac for 2 channel listening for those with similar setups?
 
Do you think the C2 is a solid/worthwhile upgrade over the Marantz headphone out and/or does the synergy between the DAC-19 and C2 via ACSS make it an easy decision to forgo the Marantz headphone out altogether?
 
If my questions belong in a separate thread, please let me know.  I will buy this DAC+AMP combination if it offers a tangible improvement, especially for headphone listening (Sennheiser HD 600 + Denon D2000 or D5000 coming soon).
 
 
 

 
I haven't tried the SR8002, but I know a thing or two about it. The most important thing to notice is the headphone out, which has an output impedance of 400 ohms or so. With the HD600, this will result in a very noticeable bass boost. The Denons would not have this quantity problem because of their very flat impedance curve, but the bass quality could still suffer. I have a Marantz stereo amp myself (PM-15S1) which has a similar headphone output with a high output impedance. I do not and will not listen to my AKGs using it, since my phones have the same kind of variations in their impedance curve as the HD600. The result is a clearly audible frequency balance problem.
 
The DAC in the SR8002 might be enough for casual headphone listening, but the amp IMHO is not. You would get a big improvement just getting a dedicated headphone amp and using the SR8002 as a DAC, but if you want to be set for a potentially very long time, it's easy for me to recommed the DAC19/C2 combo. You have some very good headphones that according to the comments on this forum have good synergy with the Audio-gds, so I would go for it and be done for a while.
 

 

[BigMango]

 
Quote:

You have some very good headphones that according to the comments on this forum have good synergy with the Audio-gds, so I would go for it and be done for a while.
 

If the question is about "being done for a while", with headphones like the HD600, why would you chose the C2 at all when for 70$ more you have the Roc which is a fully balanced amp?
 
I have the Roc (with the ref5 and the HD650), but even with non-balanced sources the soundstage improvements are huge when the HD650 are powered in balanced mode (the roc transforms SE signals into balanced - powering the Sens as they were meant to be).
 
IMO, if you can't afford a balanced Dac I would at least take the Roc. With these kinds of headphones even with the Dac19 as a source (or any other SE source) it will definitely give you more pleasure (it did for me). And if you don't plan to balance your HD600 yet, you can still use them on the roc's SE output. At least, for that mere 70 bucks you will be ready for your future upgrade path.