[Whaleshark12]

  Yeah it was surprising to me after owning them and seeing much praise for them by respected reviewers that there were very few owners. They never caught on anywhere and I wonder how many unsold units they are floating around. Or how many were produced to begin with. 

I'm pretty curious with the total unit that is produced.. Last time Amazon JP have new set for sale. Around 50k Yen. Now there is only used, 35k Yen. Starting to become a vintage item i guess?

 

[TheDreamthinker]

  I'm pretty curious with the total unit that is produced.. Last time Amazon JP have new set for sale. Around 50k Yen. Now there is only used, 35k Yen. Starting to become a vintage item i guess?

 If i were to collect iems (no, really collect for the sake of it), I would probably start with AT products.
Their eye for design and the woods and metals used always looked so elegant and delicate, while being sturdy...

 

[recarcar]

  I'm pretty curious with the total unit that is produced.. Last time Amazon JP have new set for sale. Around 50k Yen. Now there is only used, 35k Yen. Starting to become a vintage item i guess?

 In IEM years it seems like the CK100Pro is 1000 years old, haha. 

   If i were to collect iems (no, really collect for the sake of it), I would probably start with AT products.
Their eye for design and the woods and metals used always looked so elegant and delicate, while being sturdy...

I really find their products to be really wonderful looking a lot of the time. I may be in the minority but I really love the looks of the 100Pro. Although sometimes looks can be deceiving in terms of build quality, the build on the 100Pro, in the hand at least, feels like a top tier product. I am looking at the Kaede II right now next to the 100Pro and the Kaede looks unquestionably flimsy in comparison. By all accounts the build is fine but the CK100Pro is one of the few "top tier" phones I've had or auditioned that actually looks and feels like it will hold up for quite a while. 

 

[Whaleshark12]

   If i were to collect iems (no, really collect for the sake of it), I would probably start with AT products.
Their eye for design and the woods and metals used always looked so elegant and delicate, while being sturdy...

Well, I would only consider the CK100PRO worth collecting. CKR series, the cable is not as sturdy as the  CK100PRO. It tangles. I do agree some of their product looks pretty good and use exotic material in constructing it. I have the impression of ATH tends to like to be the opposite of other manufacturer. Like MMCX is reverse, IM series Pin is reverse. Just my opinion.
 

   In IEM years it seems like the CK100Pro is 1000 years old, haha. 
I really find their products to be really wonderful looking a lot of the time. I may be in the minority but I really love the looks of the 100Pro. Although sometimes looks can be deceiving in terms of build quality, the build on the 100Pro, in the hand at least, feels like a top tier product. I am looking at the Kaede II right now next to the 100Pro and the Kaede looks unquestionably flimsy in comparison. By all accounts the build is fine but the CK100Pro is one of the few "top tier" phones I've had or auditioned that actually looks and feels like it will hold up for quite a while. 

More like having a futuristic look IMO

 .

+1, I do find the CK100PRO looks really cool. Especially the laser engraved L and R indicator. Looks premium. This is my first TOTL IEM though. (not sure about the JVC FX850 and CKR10,does that consider?) 

 

[TheDreamthinker]

 
I really find their products to be really wonderful looking a lot of the time. I may be in the minority but I really love the looks of the 100Pro. Although sometimes looks can be deceiving in terms of build quality, the build on the 100Pro, in the hand at least, feels like a top tier product. I am looking at the Kaede II right now next to the 100Pro and the Kaede looks unquestionably flimsy in comparison. By all accounts the build is fine but the CK100Pro is one of the few "top tier" phones I've had or auditioned that actually looks and feels like it will hold up for quite a while. 

Let's not start with Ocharaku products. They sound nice but are questionably designed. 
They really have that 'sound only' approach to their construction. Even looking at their packaging - only a tea box.
To their defense, a company which puts the term '茶' (cha=tea) into their name really want to be something special.
 

  Well, I would only consider the CK100PRO worth collecting. CKR series, the cable is not as sturdy as the  CK100PRO. It tangles. I do agree some of their product looks pretty good and use exotic material in constructing it. I have the impression of ATH tends to like to be the opposite of other manufacturer. Like MMCX is reverse, IM series Pin is reverse. Just my opinion.

 
That made me chuckle. Never noticed this, but it seems to be true.
Probably the word 'artisanal' also means making it more complicated for consumers to replace.
 
I find that all the higher end ATs look really nice, even the non-titanium CK10, which looks somewhat cute when compared to other iems (especially new ones). Looking at those monsters like the Roxanne, Layla.

 

[Whaleshark12]

.
Probably the word 'artisanal' also means making it more complicated for consumers to replace.
 

More like boosting Income of the company, THEY are the sole seller of spare part for their product. Take my comment as a grain of salt. Just my opinion, haha.

 

[TheDreamthinker]

  More like boosting Income of the company, THEY are the sole seller of spare part for their product. Take my comment as a grain of salt. Just my opinion, haha.

You surely are right.
Even getting custom (replacement) cables made for the CK100pro are quite difficult, so i have heard

 

[recarcar]

  Let's not start with Ocharaku products. They sound nice but are questionably designed. 
They really have that 'sound only' approach to their construction. Even looking at their packaging - only a tea box.
To their defense, a company which puts the term '茶' (cha=tea) into their name really want to be something special.
 
 
That made me chuckle. Never noticed this, but it seems to be true.
Probably the word 'artisanal' also means making it more complicated for consumers to replace.
 
I find that all the higher end ATs look really nice, even the non-titanium CK10, which looks somewhat cute when compared to other iems (especially new ones). Looking at those monsters like the Roxanne, Layla.

 
Definitely agree. The housing of the Kaede actually seems really well built and nicely put together. But I've seen more sturdy looking cables on sub $100 IEMs. That being said, the cable is not microphonic at all, non-tangle prone, and very much looks made by hand, which I assume is the aesthetic they are going for. The cable may very well last quite a while with proper care. It just doesn't inspire much confidence when you look at it.
 
But as you said earlier on in this thread, 音茶楽 products aren't really intended for outdoor use. They seem to be trying to produce a full-sized open phone type sound in a much smaller package that you can enjoy at home. And to their credit, I have them next to the Koss ESP950, and comparatively the Kaede's look like they are built like tanks, haha. 

 

[TheDreamthinker]

 
Definitely agree. The housing of the Kaede actually seems really well built and nicely put together. But I've seen more sturdy looking cables on sub $100 IEMs. That being said, the cable is not microphonic at all, non-tangle prone, and very much looks made by hand, which I assume is the aesthetic they are going for. The cable may very well last quite a while with proper care. It just doesn't inspire much confidence when you look at it.
 
But as you said earlier on in this thread, 音茶楽 products aren't really intended for outdoor use. They seem to be trying to produce a full-sized open phone type sound in a much smaller package that you can enjoy at home. And to their credit, I have them next to the Koss ESP950, and comparatively the Kaede's look like they are built like tanks, haha. 

True. Even looking that at that price they do not use removable cables or even strain reliefs for that matter.
 
I found their sound to be one of the nearest i have heard to a full sized open headphone. But the fit I had during the audition created sore spots, so my experience was somewhat hindered. 

 

[recarcar]

  True. Even looking that at that price they do not use removable cables or even strain reliefs for that matter.
 
I found their sound to be one of the nearest i have heard to a full sized open headphone. But the fit I had during the audition created sore spots, so my experience was somewhat hindered. 

I wish the Kaede had more strain relief and a chunkier cable but it could have been a calculated design decision that I am unaware of. For the price though, the cable is a little frail looking.
Suspect build seems to be a bit of a theme though with a lot of higher end products. The is CK100Pro is still my bench mark for build quality at least, and it is now 4 years old. To be fair though, a lot of newer TOTL earphones have improved on this, the Shure 846, Dita (truth & answer) etc. But it still seems to be a mixed bag which is unfortunate as these TOTL porducts are getting more expensive by the minute. 
 
The Kaede bests a lot of aspects of some of the better full sized open phones that I have owned or auditioned. It is really impressive in this way. But like all phones, it has its strengths and weaknesses. I also had soreness initially and had to mess with tips and insertion depth for a couple days. They are really comfortable for me now but I can definitely see their fit being really awkward for some people. I can imagine it being an even more awkward fit than the 100pro for some because you really can't adjust their shallow fit all that much. 

 

[TheDreamthinker]

  I wish the Kaede had more strain relief and a chunkier cable but it could have been a calculated design decision that I am unaware of. For the price though, the cable is a little frail looking.
Suspect build seems to be a bit of a theme though with a lot of higher end products. The is CK100Pro is still my bench mark for build quality at least, and it is now 4 years old. To be fair though, a lot of newer TOTL earphones have improved on this, the Shure 846, Dita (truth & answer) etc. But it still seems to be a mixed bag which is unfortunate as these TOTL porducts are getting more expensive by the minute. 
 
The Kaede bests a lot of aspects of some of the better full sized open phones that I have owned or auditioned. It is really impressive in this way. But like all phones, it has its strengths and weaknesses. I also had soreness initially and had to mess with tips and insertion depth for a couple days. They are really comfortable for me now but I can definitely see their fit being really awkward for some people. I can imagine it being an even more awkward fit than the 100pro for some because you really can't adjust their shallow fit all that much. 

The Kaede is well built but not well designed and no degree of craftsmanship can make up for bad design. Looking at the packaging as well, I highly doubt the Ocharaku IEMs are meant to be used 'a lot'. They are meant to be used on rare occasions in your home library and then put back into the metal tea can it came with.
 
To be honest I lost interest in the CK100pro because:
a) I had a bad fit
b) they were so bright that I literally felt deaf afterward (at moderate-low volume) - first time that happened
c) I experienced very considerable hiss through my system 
 
I also think that one or more of these reasons apply to most consumers, keeping them away from the CK100pro

 

[recarcar]

  The Kaede is well built but not well designed and no degree of craftsmanship can make up for bad design. Looking at the packaging as well, I highly doubt the Ocharaku IEMs are meant to be used 'a lot'. They are meant to be used on rare occasions in your home library and then put back into the metal tea can it came with.
 
To be honest I lost interest in the CK100pro because:
a) I had a bad fit
b) they were so bright that I literally felt deaf afterward (at moderate-low volume) - first time that happened
c) I experienced very considerable hiss through my system 
 
I also think that one or more of these reasons apply to most consumers, keeping them away from the CK100pro

I agree to a certain extent. I don't necessarily think they are poorly designed. I think it takes a little bit of time using a product and getting to know it to really get a good sense of that. One of the first decent phones I got a few years back (Ety HF5) I thought originally was very poorly designed with a really underwhelming looking build and a terrible cable. But I have had them for a while now with no signs of slowing down and it's the one phone I don't treat with great care or use cautiously at all. The cable has turned out to be very sturdy and the build has actually been very durable despite looking very cheap. 
 
I do agree that the Ocharaku IEMs were meant to be used indoors, but the Kaede at least looks sturdy enough to be used quite a bit for these applications. It's very nice wooden tea box/carrying case also indicates that it's not meant to be carried around and used outdoors. However, I got them to with the intention of being a portable full-sized open like phone that I could use at work or at home when I do not want to use my bulkier and non-portable open backs. For that they are working out quite well so far. It will be a test of time, for me at least, to really know if they are poorly designed or not for my applications.
 
 With regard to the CK100Pro, I am really glad I was patient with them. They reminded me again of the lesson the Ety's taught me when I was first getting into the hobby, that in my personal case, exerting some patience with products if they don't work out initially may be worthwhile. That is of course a personal choice and there is a lot to be said for first impressions and why people might disregard a phone on first lesson or longer auditions. The CK100Pro is very polarizing in this sense.
 
Like you, I was not thrilled initially when I first got it because it was very bright, the fit was a bit weird, and it hisses like crazy with some gear. But after a few days (maybe longer) of tip rolling, messing with insertion depth, and trying out different sources, I was rewarded with what is IMO a really wonderful sounding phone. And one that has held up very well to a lot of newer much more expensive gear. But it took some patience and a lot of reading and talking to other users to get there. Now, despite thinking initially like the Etys that they were very poorly designed, think they were very well designed. Despite this, I can absolutely see why someone would not want to do that and get a phone that is more immediately gratifying, and there is definitely nothing wrong with that. It is just that in my personal case, being a little bit patient and waiting to really get to know the phone has often been pretty rewarding. Which is why I am reserving some judgement on the Kaedes until i get to know them a little better. 

 

[TheDreamthinker]

  I agree to a certain extent. I don't necessarily think they are poorly designed. I think it takes a little bit of time using a product and getting to know it to really get a good sense of that. One of the first decent phones I got a few years back (Ety HF5) I thought originally was very poorly designed with a really underwhelming looking build and a terrible cable. But I have had them for a while now with no signs of slowing down and it's the one phone I don't treat with great care or use cautiously at all. The cable has turned out to be very sturdy and the build has actually been very durable despite looking very cheap. 
 
I do agree that the Ocharaku IEMs were meant to be used indoors, but the Kaede at least looks sturdy enough to be used quite a bit for these applications. It's very nice wooden tea box/carrying case also indicates that it's not meant to be carried around and used outdoors. However, I got them to with the intention of being a portable full-sized open like phone that I could use at work or at home when I do not want to use my bulkier and non-portable open backs. For that they are working out quite well so far. It will be a test of time, for me at least, to really know if they are poorly designed or not for my applications.
 
 With regard to the CK100Pro, I am really glad I was patient with them. They reminded me again of the lesson the Ety's taught me when I was first getting into the hobby, that in my personal case, exerting some patience with products if they don't work out initially may be worthwhile. That is of course a personal choice and there is a lot to be said for first impressions and why people might disregard a phone on first lesson or longer auditions. The CK100Pro is very polarizing in this sense.
 
Like you, I was not thrilled initially when I first got it because it was very bright, the fit was a bit weird, and it hisses like crazy with some gear. But after a few days (maybe longer) of tip rolling, messing with insertion depth, and trying out different sources, I was rewarded with what is IMO a really wonderful sounding phone. And one that has held up very well to a lot of newer much more expensive gear. But it took some patience and a lot of reading and talking to other users to get there. Now, despite thinking initially like the Etys that they were very poorly designed, think they were very well designed. Despite this, I can absolutely see why someone would not want to do that and get a phone that is more immediately gratifying, and there is definitely nothing wrong with that. It is just that in my personal case, being a little bit patient and waiting to really get to know the phone has often been pretty rewarding. Which is why I am reserving some judgement on the Kaedes until i get to know them a little better. 

I apologise, I should have been more specific about the phrase 'not well designed'.
To my mind bad design can imply to things:
 
a) fragility (ex.: no strain relief, therefore Y-split breaks)
b) inconvenience for the user (ex.: a lot of microphonics / cable noise)
 
In case of Etymotic Research products (I am using a pair of ER4s while writing this) for example it mainly is b). The ER4s look like sticks, have a strange 45° angle connector and are microphonic as all hell. But they seem to be quite well built, as some specimins are still in service after more than 10 years.
 
I think when looking at the Kaede it is readily apparent that they designed the sound before anything else. They hardly have any strain relief to speak of, are very microphonic, have non removable / thin cables and (at least for me) a strange sized nozzle which creates sore points inside my ears.
Now although this doesn't mean that the Kaede (or other Ocharaku IEMs) won't last long, this does mean that from an engineering perspective they are more prone to daily (ab)use than other more use-designed IEMs (Shure, InEar, etc.).

 

[recarcar]

No need to apologise! There was no offense taken I definitely also take those things into account when evaluating the design of a product also. I just don't know yet if they are actually as fragile as they look. The HF5 also look really fragile and their strain reliefs look really suspect, but have held up to all kinds of wear and tear. So for all intents and purposes they have been actually quite durable despite seemingly being really frail. That is why I mentioned them in comparison to the Kaede and its build quality. The 100pro is one of the few IEMs I have seen where nothing about it looks fragile or suspect. The cable on the HF5 is just as microphonic as that of the ER4PT that I use sometimes but I just wear them over the ears.
 
The Kaede's cable is not really all that microphonic to me and much, much better than either of the Ety phones in this regard. But I do definitely agree that Ocharaku took a sound first approach while also wanting to keep a handmade/unique look. This might have been the impetus for the decision about the cables. The cabinet is undoubtedly  a sound first design as it awkward looking and although comfortable for my ears, could easily cause many ears problems. And to all your points, I will absolutely not be going to the gyms with these haha 

 

[urtv]

  You surely are right.
Even getting custom (replacement) cables made for the CK100pro are quite difficult, so i have heard

 
I think only null-audio makes cables for it