READ THIS: Serious flaws in ipod classic

[ozz]

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigshot /img/forum/go_quote.gif The definition of "decibel" is the amount of difference that one can discern using test tones. So .1 would be 1/10th of audible. Compare using music instead of test tones and the threshold of discernability goes up to about 3dB. Too often, numbers get thrown around with absolutely no regard for their meaning. Equipment is often rated as being +/-3dB of flat from 20Hz to 20kHz. If the variance is as low as .1dB, that's pretty doggone good frequency response. This doesn't even take into account the fact that many people can't hear 19kHz and there is no musical instrument (aside from synths) that operates anywhere near that range. It's amazing that this has generated so many posts. I would think most people would look at those numbers and laugh and move on. See ya Steve

makes you wonder if the thread would have been different if figures and
charts had not been introduced as earlier posters liked the sound.

 

[mrarroyo]

I definetly think to much is being made out of nothing. Just the act of walking from your office to the cafeteria will prevent you from hearing a 0.1 or a 0.2 dB difference. Much worse if you are sitting in a train or in a bus going home.

I would like to see (hear) what this is all about but I truly do not get it.

 

[mirumu]

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigshot /img/forum/go_quote.gif The definition of "decibel" is the amount of difference that one can discern using test tones. So .1 would be 1/10th of audible. Compare using music instead of test tones and the threshold of discernability goes up to about 3dB. Too often, numbers get thrown around with absolutely no regard for their meaning. Equipment is often rated as being +/-3dB of flat from 20Hz to 20kHz. If the variance is as low as .1dB, that's pretty doggone good frequency response. This doesn't even take into account the fact that many people can't hear 19kHz and there is no musical instrument (aside from synths) that operates anywhere near that range. It's amazing that this has generated so many posts. I would think most people would look at those numbers and laugh and move on.

If we were just talking about a 0.1db boost at 19Khz I'd agree but while 19Khz is the peak, these graphs are not linear either and the treble boost seems to start about 10Khz which almost anyone can hear. Personally I can't hear it and I wonder if people accusing the 6G of having noticeably boosted treble are just simply comparing against the 5.5G which rolled off the treble instead (about 1db down instead of 0.1db up). Certainly 1.1db would be audible but I'd rather have 0.1db up than 1db down myself. You are incorrect though about only synths being capable producing sound at 19Khz. Many instruments produce harmonics that high and even much higher including trumpets, violins and oboes. Cymbals can even still be putting out sound at 100Khz. If anyone would notice it would be the classical aficionados. You are also ignoring the phase shift in your dismissal of the topic.

I do think the reaction to these graphs is a storm in a teacup. My own interest in it is purely to get a view for how big or small the reported issues actually are. I think we need to do that because it's easy to blow a graph out of proportion. I am rapidly coming to the conclusion that most people using this information to rule out a 6G iPod purchase would never hear any of this. I certainly can't hear them despite quite a lot of focused listening and that's with substantially better and more revealing headphones that the typical IEMs most will be using. If anything this is all just proving to me that the 6G scales reasonably well when used with better gear.

 

[ozz]

if it could be blind tested and picked out 4 out of 5 then there is a difference.

 

[bigshot]

Frequencies above 10kHz are the least important frequencies. The amount of information up there in recorded music is very small. You could roll it all off and the music would still sound good. Imbalances above 10kHz are only going to cause masking in frequencies beyond the range of human hearing. First level harmonics are great to be able to reproduce well, but a .1dB cut or boost isn't going to make a lick of difference.

I'm going to be blunt, ozz. Some people around here are lazy. They want someone else to tell them what good sound is. They don't want to take the time to figure things out for themselves. They'd rather be sheep and follow "conventional wisdom" even if that conventional wisdom is totally bogus. Being an audiophile involves more thinking than that.

See ya
Steve

 

[Prozakk]

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigshot /img/forum/go_quote.gif They don't want to take the time to figure things out for themselves.

Money is the key...not time. M-O-N-E-Y

 

[hockey_magnet]

I just picked up the 80G Classic and i'm pretty impressed - I've used a lot of ipods, full size and nano's from 1G on - I can only go by what my ears tell me - the 6G sounds better than the 5.5, primarily in terms of a "clearer" base sound - using UM2's - It's not that there is more bass, it is just better defined and has a bit more impact. The difference, as has been noted by many is not huge but the 6G does sound very good through HO and line out. It's a shame that some people get put into panick mode by some posts and base their buying decsion on these posts. My advice: If you like the other features of the Classic, buy it from a store where you can return it with no trouble and listen for yourself - if you don't like it, return it. (I got mine at Costco (Canada) - kind of odd that they had a better selection than BestBuy or FutureShop -also $10 cheaper)

Chris

 

[Muziklover]

Classic + AE1 + Jenna Cryo Dock + EPH 500 = Audio Bliss

 

[jonnywolfet]

i am waiting for a demo unit to arrive in a store in london where i can load up some of my own music and have a listen. im pretty sure that i wont be disappointed, which is a shame, because thats more money spent...

 

[Bob Mahoy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jook /img/forum/go_quote.gif Just in case there was some misunderstanding - I wasn't flaming you, and neither do I see anyone else in the thread doing so. My comments were all targeted at the author of the webpage posted, and I question the way he is presenting things and cross-posting on many forums as if it was fact (he links to them all on his page), when it seems questionable (and he even recognizes the problems in his measurements). I don't blame him so much as think it unwise.

Sorry for the misunderstanding

 

[Skylab]

Spent some additional time listening to the Classic (again, from the line output only). It sounds very good. Does it have a tiny bit more high-end sparkle versus the 5.5G? Maybe. Does it have a seriously compromised frequency response? No. Does it have a tiny bit less dimensionality versus the 5.5G? Maybe. Is it's soundstaging ability totally bogus? No.

I admit that to me, the Classic does sound a little different than the 5.5G, it doesn't seem to me to sound WORSE, just a little different.

And the ability to hold 160GB of lossless files outweighs for me any difference. I am going to try to put the 160GB drive in my 5.5G iMod iPod, because the iMod iPod clearly sounds better than either th5 5.5G stock or the Classic. That is a difference that is very easy to hear and that I think almost everyone would prefer the iMod versus the Classic.

 

[mamboman]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skylab /img/forum/go_quote.gif Spent some additional time listening to the Classic (again, from the line output only). It sounds very good. Does it have a tiny bit more high-end sparkle versus the 5.5G? Maybe. Does it have a seriously compromised frequency response? No. Does it have a tiny bit less dimensionality versus the 5.5G? Maybe. Is it's soundstaging ability totally bogus? No. I admit that to me, the Classic does sound a little different than the 5.5G, it doesn't seem to me to sound WORSE, just a little different. And the ability to hold 160GB of lossless files outweighs for me any difference. I am going to try to put the 160GB drive in my 5.5G iMod iPod, because the iMod iPod clearly sounds better than either th5 5.5G stock or the Classic. That is a difference that is very easy to hear and that I think almost everyone would prefer the iMod versus the Classic.

I fully agree with you, the iMod does sound better than 5.5G stock/Classic. And the Classic dropping support for 3rd part audio managers is also another reason I am tempted to replace the hard disk into my iMod instead.

 

[mrarroyo]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skylab /img/forum/go_quote.gif Spent some additional time listening to the Classic (again, from the line output only). It sounds very good. Does it have a tiny bit more high-end sparkle versus the 5.5G? Maybe. Does it have a seriously compromised frequency response? No. Does it have a tiny bit less dimensionality versus the 5.5G? Maybe. Is it's soundstaging ability totally bogus? No. I admit that to me, the Classic does sound a little different than the 5.5G, it doesn't seem to me to sound WORSE, just a little different. And the ability to hold 160GB of lossless files outweighs for me any difference. I am going to try to put the 160GB drive in my 5.5G iMod iPod, because the iMod iPod clearly sounds better than either th5 5.5G stock or the Classic. That is a difference that is very easy to hear and that I think almost everyone would prefer the iMod versus the Classic.

Is your classic fully burnt in? BTW look forward to you installing the 160gb hd on the 5.5 imod.

 

[nfusion770]

I don't have a 5g anymore, but IIRC the 6g sounds a little different. There does seem to be a treble sparkle. I have spent a little time testing against the 1g shuffle, and I get the feeling the 6g is warmer, but I think the SQ is pretty close. I guess the slight edge or more accurately, preference, may go to the 1g shuffle, but I haven't found it real significant thus far.

Skylab, nice avatar. I bought that poster a few months ago for my listening area- quite apropos.

 

[Todd R]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skylab /img/forum/go_quote.gif Spent some additional time listening to the Classic (again, from the line output only). It sounds very good. Does it have a tiny bit more high-end sparkle versus the 5.5G? Maybe. Does it have a seriously compromised frequency response? No. Does it have a tiny bit less dimensionality versus the 5.5G? Maybe. Is it's soundstaging ability totally bogus? No.

I got my 80 Gig classic yesterday and have been sitting here this morning going back & forth between it and my 5.5 30G Video iPod. Using Ety ER-4 & Shure 530's. Using the headphone out, the Classic has a tiny bit more highs & bass than the 5.5...it's close.
Using the line out into a PIMETA amp, the difference is larger and it's easy to hear the warmer sound of the classic. The 5.5 sounds noticeably thinner.

Not sure if it was worth upgrading just over sound quality, but the added storage capacity is worth it if you were running out (like I was). Besides, my son needed his own iPod so he inherited my old one.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skylab /img/forum/go_quote.gif I am going to try to put the 160GB drive in my 5.5G iMod iPod, because the iMod iPod clearly sounds better than either th5 5.5G stock or the Classic. That is a difference that is very easy to hear and that I think almost everyone would prefer the iMod versus the Classic.

Thought Vinny told us there wasn't much difference?

Kind of a strange thing for a manufacturer to say, but I appreciated his honesty.
When I heard the iMod, I thought it was killer good, so when he said the Classic was real close to it I decided to get one.