[plonter]

I have a question regarding bass response in headphones.
so right now i am listening to a certain cd (what album is not relevant) through my headroom rig (see sig) and my beloved denon D5000 headphones.
this cd have some very subtle and delicate deep bass notes in certain tracks.  those bass notes hit very gently and only for half a second each time, but i can hear them fine with the help of the bass heavy denon D5000.  (it feels like they almost hit my body)
 
I am pretty sure that i would not catch/hear these bass notes with another headphones  which is not bass heavy ,because these notes are too subtle too notice.  without the denons i would probably never have noticed those notes.   
 
now...i am assuming that those notes was played in the recording in order to be heard by the listener.    and i know that the D5000 can't be called a neutral or balanced headphone in anyway..but what does it say about other headphones like HD650/600, that are considered as more balanced,if i can't hear these bass notes with them?   how can they be considered as "balanced"? 
 
I would also like to know if there are any headphones that can truly show the deepest bass notes and still be neutral and not over emphasized in bass.  the HD800 maybe?

 

[techenvy]

you are on the right track with open design for lower frequency, but you will sacrifice punch because of the open design, i have very little experience with open cans, but if i were considering an open can it would be the t1 or the lcd2. but many prefer hd800.
 
also i think your denon have bass hump around 65-70 hz judging from the headroom graph
 
for rock music i usually eq the low end from 55-110 hz, then i keep it mostly flat unless its super bright
 
unfortunately  their graphs aren't more accurate, otherwise we could narrow down the bass hump or spike. so i would not say that 70 hz is accurate,   i would imagine  some of the open designs and ortho's register lower.  it all depends on what kind of music you listen to, with what phone to get the benefit . and of course your preference.
 

 

[maverickronin]

Most peoples idea of neutrality would seem to be wrong then wouldn't it?

 

[SP Wild]

Quote:

Most peoples idea of neutrality would seem to be wrong then wouldn't it?

That's how it appears to me.

 

[Ashirgo]

You can try to think of it in the following way: is the music produced nowadays supposed to sound pleasant and funny, or boring/uninvolving? Then, try to find the most musical/fun sounding system and be happy with it

Neutrality is needed for mixing/production, and even there it is referred to as "translatability"; if a mix translates well (sounds good with a wide array of speakers/headphones), it probably means that the monitoring equipment had the right balance. Do you need that balance at home, given that the producer expected the music to be played on a non-neutral system and compensated for that?

 

[matthewh133]

Exactly right. It is not important to have a neutral sound unless you are in mixing/production. What's important is how it sounds to your ears!

 

[Graphicism]

Quote:

I have a question regarding bass response in headphones.
so right now i am listening to a certain cd (what album is not relevant) through my headroom rig (see sig) and my beloved denon D5000 headphones.
this cd have some very subtle and delicate deep bass notes in certain tracks.  those bass notes hit very gently and only for half a second each time, but i can hear them fine with the help of the bass heavy denon D5000.  (it feels like they almost hit my body)
 
I am pretty sure that i would not catch/hear these bass notes with another headphones  which is not bass heavy ,because these notes are too subtle too notice.  without the denons i would probably never have noticed those notes.   
 
...

 

 
It's hard to comment without hearing the music in question. Instantly I question are the bass notes supposed to hit for half a second each time or is this a longer bass note that is crossing from mid bass to sub bass and the Denons being what they are screwing this up? In other words could this be a 3 second bass note that starts high and goes deeper be sounding like 2 separate bass notes as it makes a less than smooth transition into sub bass?
 
If on the other hand it's just a deep bass note that hits for half a second I'm sure you can hear it on any headphone, even a bass-light one. When you listen too and more importantly get used to a warm bassy headphone you kind of get used to the sound produced as neutral, so if after listening to the Denons for days you don another pair of less-bassy headphones to listen to this bass note you may very well miss it.
 
You also mention only noticing the bass note because of the Denons; one of the reasons I sold my D2000s was because it took away the musical presentation and presented me with a bassy beat. No longer was I listening to music in the way I used too, the fat bass took over, stood out above the music and for me personally spoiled everything save for some D&B.
 
If you're a bass head and care little about music then yeah you're going to love the Denons and the hard body hitting bass they spew up.

 

[SP Wild]

I shall celebrate the day treble heads are made to hang their heads in shame as bassheads are made to in this time.  Treble heads that care little about music will love some of the ear damaging treble that some cans crap out.

 

[Uncle Erik]

I shall celebrate the day treble heads are made to hang their heads in shame as bassheads are made to in this time.  Treble heads that care little about music will love some of the ear damaging treble that some cans crap out.

What?

Those of us who love mids and highs also love bass. Good bass, that is.

The problem is that a lot of headphones add bass where there isn't bass on the recording. It drives me crazy when a tuba, bassoon or kettle drum doesn't sound like a tuba, bassoon or kettle drum.

Do you want a glass of real orange juice or are you happy with Tang?

If you're happy with artificially bass-enhanced headphones, rejoice! Most of the stuff on the market boosts the bass to make them sound "good" to the mass market. Your side won. But there are still a few headphones that try to make bass sound like it does when you go to a classical or jazz concert. Those are the ones that interest me.

I want my jazz and classical to sound like they do when I go see a live performance. I don't want my plucked bass sprinkled with artificial bass flavoring.

 

[SP Wild]

 
Quote:

What?

Those of us who love mids and highs also love bass. Good bass, that is.

The problem is that a lot of headphones add bass where there isn't bass on the recording. It drives me crazy when a tuba, bassoon or kettle drum doesn't sound like a tuba, bassoon or kettle drum.

Do you want a glass of real orange juice or are you happy with Tang?

If you're happy with artificially bass-enhanced headphones, rejoice! Most of the stuff on the market boosts the bass to make them sound "good" to the mass market. Your side won. But there are still a few headphones that try to make bass sound like it does when you go to a classical or jazz concert. Those are the ones that interest me.

I want my jazz and classical to sound like they do when I go see a live performance. I don't want my plucked bass sprinkled with artificial bass flavoring.

Why oh why did you respond to my treble head remark?  You are always stating that the HD650 is a very nice can....therefore I cannot view you as a treble head.
 
My theory as to why mass consumers prefer bass is simple.  Bass outside of the context of a detailed understanding of musical instruments...is a very naturally occuring sound that "normal" people can relate to in general...it's built into our evolution to respect the awesome power of bass (explosions, eruptions, earthquakes, tidal waves - most natural disasters).  It occurs everyday in traffic...trucks, buses, subways - subbass is there in abundance.
 
Of course most "normal" people aren't educated in how real instruments sound, they have no idea how too much bass can seriously damage the tonality of some instruments...they've never even heard real instruments as a reference point to start with....but they've all heard bass and knows how it sounds.
 
But to me...a headphone that has too much treble and too little bass drastically skews the tonality of a lot of instruments also....perhaps not as obviously as too much bass, but to me, just as annoying - and equally as fatiguing to me as too much bass - yet all too often we call this the "transparent"...I beg to differ.
 
I mean what for go in the extreme opposite direction of common folks - is it to place oneself on a pedestal and feel better that one is somehow more culturally sophisticated than the common peasantry...when the truth is far less glamorous?
 
True neutral is 20hz - 20khz + - 0db.  This means at 20hz it must not lack the energy at 20Khz at a given reference signal - if the bass at 20HZ isn't within 1 db - scientifically/truthfully it cannot be neutral.

 

[plonter]

Quote:

 

 
It's hard to comment without hearing the music in question. Instantly I question are the bass notes supposed to hit for half a second each time or is this a longer bass note that is crossing from mid bass to sub bass and the Denons being what they are screwing this up? In other words could this be a 3 second bass note that starts high and goes deeper be sounding like 2 separate bass notes as it makes a less than smooth transition into sub bass?
 
If on the other hand it's just a deep bass note that hits for half a second I'm sure you can hear it on any headphone, even a bass-light one. When you listen too and more importantly get used to a warm bassy headphone you kind of get used to the sound produced as neutral, so if after listening to the Denons for days you don another pair of less-bassy headphones to listen to this bass note you may very well miss it.
 
You also mention only noticing the bass note because of the Denons; one of the reasons I sold my D2000s was because it took away the musical presentation and presented me with a bassy beat. No longer was I listening to music in the way I used too, the fat bass took over, stood out above the music and for me personally spoiled everything save for some D&B.
 
If you're a bass head and care little about music then yeah you're going to love the Denons and the hard body hitting bass they spew up.

 Idefinitely agree that the denon bass is too much and bleed into the mids...which are already reccessed.      maybe it was an exaggeration to say that those bass notes are only half a second..maybe it is a second,but my point stays the same.
so you are saying that every high end,well balanced audiophile headphone should let me hear those notes?     this is exactly my question.
 
I remember head fiers' comment about the HD600/650 bass comparison with the denons.  some really deep bass notes (let's say around 30-40 hrz) were not listenable through the senns, while even the cheap audio technica M50 were playing them without effort.  what's the deal here?  does it mean that the hd600 are not well balanced?
 
too all who comment about neutrality vs. colour sound, this is not the point of this thread (sorry for those who wanted to discuss this specific issue)
I had enough of those threads by now.      I am simply trying to understand what headphones which considered as balanced or neutral will play the deepest bass notes and if the ones that aren't capable of playing those notes can be called "balanced" or "neutral" in any way...the way i see it they can't. 

 

[Graphicism]

Quote:

My theory as to why mass consumers prefer bass is simple.  Bass outside of the context of a detailed understanding of musical instruments...is a very naturally occuring sound that "normal" people can relate to in general...it's built into our evolution to respect the awesome power of bass (explosions, eruptions, earthquakes, tidal waves - most natural disasters).  It occurs everyday in traffic...trucks, buses, subways - subbass is there in abundance.
 
Of course most "normal" people aren't educated in how real instruments sound, they have no idea how too much bass can seriously damage the tonality of some instruments...they've never even heard real instruments as a reference point to start with....but they've all heard bass and knows how it sounds.

Evolution? I don't think bass is naturally sounding at all, certainly not in the grand scale of human evolution. Music is a byproduct of other adaptations, perhaps our sensitivity to speech; a harmonically rich sound that the brain has to analyze into it's frequency components in order to understand speech. Perhaps a byproduct of emotional calls that go way back in primate evolutionary history; sighs, moans, laughs, crys and so on. Possibly a byproduct of motor control; keeping your bodily actions at a constant optimal rhythm. Maybe what music does is combine bits and pieces of all these other parts of the brain, packs them into a super normal stimulus, something that actually presses our buttons harder than anything in the natural environment would and we enjoy it.
 
In order to analyze speech the brain has to have certain mechanisms for taking frequencies and analyzing harmonics. These same brain mechanisms can't help but being super normally stimulated, bass is only a very small part of it. I can't tell you to learn to enjoy the music however given time, age perhaps, you will.

 

[Graphicism]

Quote:

 Idefinitely agree that the denon bass is too much and bleed into the mids...which are already reccessed.      maybe it was an exaggeration to say that those bass notes are only half a second..maybe it is a second,but my point stays the same.
so you are saying that every high end,well balanced audiophile headphone should let me hear those notes?     this is exactly my question.
 
I remember head fiers' comment about the HD600/650 bass comparison with the denons.  some really deep bass notes (let's say around 30-40 hrz) were not listenable through the senns, while even the cheap audio technica M50 were playing them without effort.  what's the deal here?  does it mean that the hd600 are not well balanced?
 
...

 

Well then we both agree on the Denons bass and recessed mids, this was enough for me to let them go. I'm also not too fond of the HD600s, they are a little on the boring side however if pressed to choose between the two I would go with Sennheisers. Alongside the Denons I've tried the bass rich Ultrasone HFI-780s; they do present the music slightly differently and likewise this is something you have to become accustomed too, excellent for electronica but the tone is not good enough for other genres. I personally found my sweet spot in the Sony Z6, I won't go into detail as they aren't readily available but think Sony SA5000 with greater impact.
 
You know when I first came to head-fi I was looking for bass heavy headphones for my electronica addition, I have since broadened my music appreciation into classical, jazz, acoustic and so on. It's no longer about the beat but the instrument, I have gone as far as to turn my sub woofer way down low and appreciate music.

 

[Uncle Erik]

No, it has nothing to do with feeling superior to others. There's been a change in how consumers listen to music. 100 years ago, home entertainment centers used to be pianos and pump organs. A lot of people had strings and wind instruments, too, and played them at home. Going out, there would be pianos and sometimes acoustic bands in restaurants and bars, and so on.

Today, people mostly listen to electronically produced music that's been massaged by producers and played on gear that's designed to increase the bass. People are used to that sound and that's what they like. If you spend some time around acoustic music, the bass-heavy equipment doesn't sound right.

The same thing, apparently, is going on with the MP3 sound:

http://www.switched.com/2009/03/10/survey-shows-youngsters-prefer-the-tinny-sound-of-mp3s/

(includes gratuitous shot of infant listening to a K-501)

People have gotten so used to the sound of compressed music that they're starting to enjoy it. It's the same reason why a lot of food has sugar added to it today. You didn't used to get a lot of sugar (or HFCS) in ketchup and other things, but it's been added because people expect it and have come to think that sweetened food is "normal."

So I don't think it's elitism. If someone grew up in a house where piano was played daily or was in a school band, there's a good chance they'd prefer something that sounds like what they're used to hearing.

 

[plonter]

Quote:

 

Well then we both agree on the Denons bass and recessed mids, this was enough for me to let them go. I'm also not too fond of the HD600s, they are a little on the boring side however if pressed to choose between the two I would go with Sennheisers. Alongside the Denons I've tried the bass rich Ultrasone HFI-780s; they do present the music slightly differently and likewise this is something you have to become accustomed too, excellent for electronica but the tone is not good enough for other genres. I personally found my sweet spot in the Sony Z6, I won't go into detail as they aren't readily available but think Sony SA5000 with greater impact.
 
You know when I first came to head-fi I was looking for bass heavy headphones for my electronica addition, I have since broadened my music appreciation into classical, jazz, acoustic and so on. It's no longer about the beat but the instrument, I have gone as far as to turn my sub woofer way down low and appreciate music.

I hear ya... but you guys are not giving me a straight answer to my question i'm afraid.    i am too by the way,prefer more neutral sound lately and i am enjoying my ety's hf5 very much.  in fact, i think that they are currently my best sounding headphones in terms of balanced sound.
 
anyway..what i was trying to say/ask is this:    why are some high level audiophile headphones (like the hd650/600) can't produce some deep bass notes?    this is absurd if you are asking me.     imo every high level audiophile can's should be capable of reproducing all the frequencies hearable by our human ears (and maybe beyond).    and those who can't,shouldn't be called audiophile cans.    
 
can you guys please give some examples from your experience about different headphones' bass response?    did you ever encounter a headphone that  was incapable of revealing some very deep bass notes?