[Mr.PD]

Quote:

Originally posted by rickcr42 That is a tough one . I am not comfortable with MY personal freedom being at risk but the trend has been in that direction for some time now. The ID chip incell phones is one that was in the works way before this and the "911 call locator" really does not wash . Seems to this person that anytime the gov can track your location AND know who you are talking to they are being way too intrusive . The ability to monitor your e-mail and online surfing is also an area of concern , as are some of the more intrusive probable cause laws. Or video cameras at many bridges,traffic lights plus most largwe shopping area parking lots. Oh yeah ,banks ,ATM machines,the workplace But still , the "nothing to hide nothing to fear" expression holds some weight. Doesthis make me comfortable HELL NO IT DOES NOT ! Still , there has to be some way to protect the innocent.some wayto apprehend criminals after the fact.Some evidence of the crime in a court of law. Tough job,tough balancing act. Side A-civil liberties and basic freedom.Pursuit of happiness Side B-protect the innocent from criminals ,terrorists.and just bad people,PROTECTING my pursuit of happiness and basic freedom Nothing is perfect

You have just pointed out the reason people go along with tyranny. There are many logical sounding "reasons" to invade our privacy. There is that "nothing to hide" factor that trys to intimidate you into going along with the invasion. None of it holds water. Video cameras, email tracking, cell phone tracking, a trackable address for those in the country. It is all for our own good. So they say. And yes there are benefits.
I could make a list of benefits to killing the kid that lives down the street and speeds his car up and down the street every night, nearly running over the little kids in playing in the neighborhood. You could even do it "for the children". All the safety and benefits does not make it right. There are other ways to deal with the problem.
We are going to lose a lot more freedoms in the war on terror than we ever did for the war on drugs. Both wars are a farce. Neither is winnable, but they both give the populous a warm blanket feeling. So the government will be encouraged to keep them going much to the detrement of us all.

 

[minya]

Quote:

Originally posted by Mr.PD We are going to lose a lot more freedoms in the war on terror than we ever did for the war on drugs. Both wars are a farce. Neither is winnable, but they both give the populous a warm blanket feeling. So the government will be encouraged to keep them going much to the detrement of us all.

Indeed. Very true and very scary. So I'm either going to become a monk or move to Iceland. That should do it.

- Chris

 

[Flasken]

This thread is Fuxored... Ya'll should read this and be done with it:

Quote:

Originally posted by Jeff Guidry After significant reading of Kennedy assassination related material and touring the TSBD and grassy knoll area three times, I have concluded that the shootings most certainly could have been accomplished by a single gunman from the top floor of the building. This does not imply that the gunman could not have had accomplices, or even that Oswald HAD to be one of the shooters. I think that had Oswald stood trial, there was sufficient evidence to prove beyond reasonable doubt that he was indeed guilty of killing the president. There is plenty of evidence linking the Mannlicher-Carcano to Oswald and plenty of evidence indicating that that was the rifle that was used to kill the President and wound Governor Connaly. Plus, Oswald's actions after the shooting are pretty clear evidence that he was very nervous about something. You may interpret this as nervousness about a plot against him, but it is much more plausible to believe that his actions resulted from a pitiful attempt to escape justice. About 9/11......there is NO evidence, even peripherally, that would indicate that the Bush administration or the CIA was aware of imminent danger to the WTC or Pentagon and chose to allow an attack that they suspected to occur to happen. Any notions to the contrary reveal the personal prejudices of the person uttering the notion.

 

[thomas]

I read an interesting article a few weeks ago, which made it to the front page of the local paper-

Some psychologists analyzed hundreds of Bush's speaches and came to the conclusion that he is not an idiot... He's a sociopath. They found that he has terrible problems with speach when talking about domestic issues, families, health care, etc- He fumbles around making a fool of himself, competely unable to express any emotion or empathy.

However, when he's talking about revenge, "Axis of evil", and war, he has absolutely no speach problems, and is extremely confident. The fact that he has no speach problems when discussing these topics shows that he is neither dyslexic nor idiodic, and only seems that way at times because of his inability to feel empathy....

That's probably why his aproval ratings soared after 9/11, as he now appears like a strong war-time leader instead of a fumbling idiot...

I don't i know enough about psychology to agree or disagree with that point of view, but i definately hope that they are wrong....

 

[ai0tron]

SORRY ZOWIE...

I never said I agreed one way or the other really. It just doesn't seem all that unreasonable to me to suppose that when someone has the guts to KILL the president, then someone has the guts to kill a few hundred people, maybe a few thousand. And when military leaders used to sending THOUSANDS of troops to their death are allowed to control the CIA etc. it seems to me that sacrificing a few thousand in NY might not be so difficult for them. There is a LOT of compelling evidence in that link I posted. A LOT. Hey, maybe its all untrue, I DONT KNOW. But its damn compelling. The point remains that SOME people, NOT ME, thought of this. I just came across it in my research regarding the kennedy assassination. And any normal human could see IMO that the "MAGIC BULLET" theory is complete BS. And it has been demonstrated MANY MANY times that NO HUMAN BEING can have that kind of accuracy on a moving target at such a large distance. THE KENNEDY ASSASSINATION ASIDE. I remain ambiguous about what happened on 9/11.

You know one question I always asked was why were there so few people there??? You see, I used to be fascinated with skyscrapers. So I read about them all the time throughout my childhood. One thing that amazed me about WTC is that the total population of the 2 towers at its peak is somewhere around 150,000 people. I was personally shocked when the death toll was as LOW as it was. At the time that I realized that I was NOT thinking oh conspiracy blah blah, I never suspected our government for an INSTANT. NEVER. It wasn't until later that I read some compelling evidence that my position on the issue began to change.

Me personally, I put nothing past human beings. All through history great leaders of great countries have gone MAD.

There is an old saying that goes "Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely."

There has never been a greater nation, a more powerful nation than this one, America, in the HISTORY of human kind. I think some of you are much to innocent. We live in a great nation, but, people like Hitler, Stalin, Genghis Khan, Mussolini, are not just HISTORY... you name the time and I'll name the ruthless leader.

I hate it when peoples KNEE JERK REACTION is to deny awareness.

AKA FLASKEN.

 

[ai0tron]

http://www.bighula.com/ftw/free/ww3/...wontstand.html

Chek out this link if you havent. its pretty much what spurred me to do this poll.

 

[00940]

Quote:

Originally posted by ai0tron And it has been demonstrated MANY MANY times that NO HUMAN BEING can have that kind of accuracy on a moving target at such a large distance. THE KENNEDY ASSASSINATION ASIDE. I remain ambiguous about what happened on 9/11.

You're sure ?

During my short stay at the Officers school in Belgium, we had a demo of the abilities of the commando snipers. I read a bit about the Kennedy's assassination, distance and so on, it would have been a piece of cake for these guys.

 

[DanG]

Quote:

Originally posted by minya It's interesting, though, that many people scorn Muslims for their extremist religious tendencies, yet fail to notice we have many groups just as extreme (and dangerous) as they living right here in our country. Not to mention one of them is our Attorney General.

Yep, we'd better watch out for those extremist Methodists. I'm sure they could topple some buildings with their boring clothes and prudish values!

 

[ai0tron]

Oh you saw them in belgium huh? I guess being belgians I should be impressed somehow. If oswald was going to shoot kennedy from the book depository he should have done so before the motorcade turned. He could have shot him right in the face before the motorcade turned. Instead he waits for it to turn and start driving away from the book depository. WHY? Because there was a gunman on the knoll also. The number one piece of evidence pointing OBVIOUSLY to the FACT that the fatal wound to kennedys head was NOT shot from the book depository is one that any human can see for themselves in the famous video of the killing. The head shot blew his head BACK, pieces of his skull and brain flew BACK onto the BACK of the vehicle which jackie kennedy proceeded to climb out of her chair to try and retrieve off the BACK of the vehicle. The book depository being BEHIND the vehicle makes the head shot from that location KIND OF IMPOSSIBLE. YOU UNDERSTAND PHYSICS RIGHT? Remember Newtons laws of motion??

Now about the shots. Over 350 feet, travelling away from him at a speed of 11.2 mph (at the slowest point). 3 shots in less than 9 seconds.

"Lone gunman theories all theorize that one gunman scored two hits out of three shots in 6 to 9 seconds while firing at a moving target from 60 feet up using a Mannlicher-Carcano bolt-action rifle--ON THE FIRST AND ONLY ATTEMPT. In 1967 CBS News conducted a fairly realistic simulation involving eleven expert riflemen firing at a moving target sled from a 60-foot tower using a Carcano rifle (but not the alleged murder weapon itself). NOT ONE of those expert riflemen scored two hits on his first attempt, and seven of them failed to do so on ANY attempt, even though they fired under easier conditions than those in which Oswald would have fired and even though they were allowed to fire nine practice rounds prior to the test. "


Even the warren commission couldnt prove it:

"The WC's own rifle tests were equally revealing: The commission hired three Master-rated riflemen to attempt to duplicate Oswald's alleged shooting feat. The three Master-rated shooters who participated in that test fired 18 rounds while using the scope and three rounds while using the iron sights. They used the alleged murder weapon, the Mannlicher-Carcano that was traced to Lee Harvey Oswald. They missed the head and neck area of the target board silhouettes 18 out of 18 times when they used the scope, and two out of three times when they used the iron sights. In other words, they missed the head and neck area of the silhouettes 20 out of 21 times. Several of their misses were far apart on the boards. Some of their shots missed the silhouettes entirely. It's revealing that they shot so poorly even though they were allowed to take as long as they wanted for the first shot, even though two of them took longer than 6 seconds to fire, even though they were only firing from 30 feet up, and even though they were shooting at stationary--yes, stationary--target boards."

 

[minya]

Quote:

Originally posted by DanG Yep, we'd better watch out for those extremist Methodists. I'm sure they could topple some buildings with their boring clothes and prudish values!

I don't think Islamic terrorists cause terror because they're Muslim. They use that as their vehicle, definitely, claiming it's Allah's will and all, but that just provides easy justification.

Colombia is a country that has been scythed in two by civil war and a crippling underground drug economy, and is now suffering from a plague of terrorism that has nothing to do with religion.

America itself has had its acts of terrorism. Systematic genocide of the native population in the name of God and Manifest Destiny; the riots and strikes and battles of the industrial corporations (workers terrorizing employers and employers terrorizing workers). Not to mention white intimidation and disenfranchisement of the black population, and later black terrorism and violence against whites (in the '60s and '70s).

Thus, I think the threat of the extreme Protestants of America lies within the fact that given the chance, they'd restrict our freedoms as much as the hard-line clerics of Islam have restricted the freedoms of the citizens they preside over. I don't think they're going to blow up our skyscrapers.

 

[plainsong]

Yup. I just brought up that Manifest Destiny example last night in a similar debate...

plainsong - whose mother's side of the family is mostly Choctaw

Quote:

Originally posted by minya I don't think Islamic terrorists cause terror because they're Muslim. They use that as their vehicle, definitely, claiming it's Allah's will and all, but that just provides easy justification. Colombia is a country that has been scythed in two by civil war and a crippling underground drug economy, and is now suffering from a plague of terrorism that has nothing to do with religion. America itself has had its acts of terrorism. Systematic genocide of the native population in the name of God and Manifest Destiny; the riots and strikes and battles of the industrial corporations (workers terrorizing employers and employers terrorizing workers). Not to mention white intimidation and disenfranchisement of the black population, and later black terrorism and violence against whites (in the '60s and '70s). Thus, I think the threat of the extreme Protestants of America lies within the fact that given the chance, they'd restrict our freedoms as much as the hard-line clerics of Islam have restricted the freedoms of the citizens they preside over. I don't think they're going to blow up our skyscrapers.

 

[00940]

ai0tron > begins boring. Look this http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/home.htm and bury all the book you bought for 50 cents waiting for your train.

Edit : I forgot : stop dreaming of a world of conspiracy and plots. The only goal of these conspiracies is to feed writers and journalists with too few cells in their brain to try to understand the complexity of the politic.

 

[elipsis]

Quote:

Originally posted by rickcr42 the only "blame" lies with the human garbage that would do such a thing . Not with people that before 9-11 could not even ina nightmare ever dream this could happen . Finger pointing has never been a solution

I really am not going to get into this thread, but it's ironic that you say the people who perpetrate terrorism are simply "human garbage", then in the same breath state that finger pointing is never a solution.

Finger pointing is just another term for gross oversimplification, which is exactly what you have just done.

 

[ai0tron]

I really dont think that article refutes much. And I have in fact already read that page thoroughly. Thanks though. There are people on both sides of the fence that is to always be expected.

I think your problem is you put to much faith in the system.

Anyone here heard of Cynthia Mckinnley?

Yeah, she got blasted out of office after she suggested that bush and co knew about 9/11 and acted as they did for the possible gain of wealth through an investment company. Supposedly there have also been some other senators who came forward and said the same thing.

 

[fyrfytrhoges]

aiotron, maybe this is telling on how you might have SOME your facts just a little off, maybe you should pay more attention to detail and less on large drawn out arguements that have been made for many years without any PROOF, her name is Cynthia McKinney, not McKinnley. And she wasn't thrown out of office, or as you would put it "blasted" out, she was VOTED out, and deservedly so, she was cuckoo, and so is her old man. That was one for the good guys if I've ever seen it.