[00940]

Dang>

- For the "buying land" point, I wasn't making a point to the effective right to get a political power relative to the ground ownership. The point was that it is certainly not a way to be recognized as legitim owner in the eyes of the local population.

- Indeed, the UK is quite coward. Far more than France which lead two pretty long wars before going out of its colonies. We must however admit that they were often right to go out of things that couldn't have controlled anyway.

- For the repatriation, I must sadly repeat : what people wants is leaving under the tree they've grown under, not in a country even free. That's the difference between locality and nationality. The first one is often stronger. Pretty interesting to see btw that the first Jews had the opposite position : country matters, not place. It would be interesting to see how it is now.

- Your probably right about the foundation of Israel, but I would state it in another form : the world was too weak to prevent it.

- To destroy the houses is quite a good idea on the paper. But now everybody sees it doesn't work, it is only one more proof that the conflict has deep hate's roots. It just infuriates the neighbor who'll go the local section of the Hamas the next day.

- Wanna know ? I've always had a deep admiration for the Israel state. When I read books about the successive wars, my sympathy goes to the Tsahal troops. There is a kind of greatness in this story. But when I try to get a colder view of the situation, I can only see the other face of the medal.

We need some maps (sorry if they're in french, it should be easy to read anyway) :

Jerusalem

I was speaking of the eastern suburbs. Certainly not in hand before 1969.

Charm-El-Cheik treaty

What to do with the colonies ? There is no palestinian state possible if cut into small parts.

 

[ai0tron]

The Israel belongs to the jews idea is just as crazy as the Germany belongs to the aryans idea. In my honest opinion all jews should just come to America, start a little jewish community out in Minnesota like the mormons did in Utah and watch as the armada of the US navy turns the middle east into a smoking crater. Then you can all go back and reoccupy your ****ING HOLY LAND. I imagine that is the only thing that will *EVER* solve this situation.

 

[ai0tron]

So what about 9/11?

Anyone do some searches of their own?

heres an air force colonel who says bush knew.

http://www.mikehersh.com/article_65.shtml

 

[DanG]

Quote:

Originally posted by 00940 - For the "buying land" point, I wasn't making a point to the effective right to get a political power relative to the ground ownership. The point was that it is certainly not a way to be recognized as legitim owner in the eyes of the local population.

Whether the local population wants to decide that the Jew who paid for his land is not a legitimate owner is something for the local population to decide. But once you've sold your land you've sold it...

Quote:

Originally posted by 00940 - Indeed, the UK is quite coward. Far more than France which lead two pretty long wars before going out of its colonies. We must however admit that they were often right to go out of things that couldn't have controlled anyway.

I don't know whether the UK is cowardly or not. The questionable value of colonies to the United Kingdom was a question since the 19th century, but the leaders of the UK successfully convinced their people that they had value in jingoistic terms (the late 19th century is when jingoism was first used as a word in the English language to mock Britain's nationalistic chauvenism). After WW2 Britain had clearly lost its ability to maintain colonies or to keep its image as a superpower or empire, just like France and all the other European nations (aside from the USSR). They couldn't really control their colonies as they barely had the resources to rebuild their own countries. It was America's Marshall Plan that restored Europe. I don't see how Britain had any power (or right for that matter) to decide what was best for the Middle East.

Quote:

Originally posted by 00940 For the repatriation, I must sadly repeat : what people wants is leaving under the tree they've grown under, not in a country even free. That's the difference between locality and nationality. The first one is often stronger. Pretty interesting to see btw that the first Jews had the opposite position : country matters, not place. It would be interesting to see how it is now.

People want prosperity and familiarity. The Palestinians didn't seem to have a chance at prosperity, but Arab leaders from abroad and among their own people (like Arafat) promised them that they could have their old homes back the way they were by killing all the Jews. People want what they believe they can get -- I think locality and nationality are irrelevant terms here since Palestinians have been asking for both continuously and interchangeably.

Quote:

Originally posted by 00940 Your probably right about the foundation of Israel, but I would state it in another form : the world was too weak to prevent it.

Let me rephrase my point -- the Jews defended themselves and their interests from Arab aggression and thus carved out their state according to the lines at the end of the War of Independence in 1948, not according to the lines painted by the faraway UN General Assembly. They then tripled the size of their country after another war and established lines that were easier to defend, even going in and installing modern plumbing and electricity and roads in dominantly Arab sections of Jerusalem and other parts of the newly captured territories. Unlike in many other points in history, Jews showed they could defend themselves and take the actions necessary to survive.

Quote:

Originally posted by 00940 To destroy the houses is quite a good idea on the paper. But now everybody sees it doesn't work, it is only one more proof that the conflict has deep hate's roots. It just infuriates the neighbor who'll go the local section of the Hamas the next day.

It's not quite as simple as that. Many people claim that Sharon's tactics have not worked. Yet suicide bombings and general attacks on Israel have plummeted in the past few months, probably due to the IDF's active role in disarming and arresting terrorists, as well as punishing those responsible for crimes.

Quote:

Originally posted by 00940 What to do with the colonies ? There is no palestinian state possible if cut into small parts.

My French is good enough that I can read the maps provided (hell, if I can read through Flaubert's boring works I can read anything in French

).

Anyway, the question you pose is a valid one and very difficult at that. It would be very difficult (and questionable) to evict all the Jewish settlers as was done in the Sinai Peninsula when it was given to the Egyptians in exchange for peace. With Egypt it worked, but with the Palestinians it seems unlikely to work as even peace talks are "protested" by the terrorists with additional attempts at murder.

 

[00940]

Quote:

Originally posted by ai0tron The Israel belongs to the jews idea is just as crazy as the Germany belongs to the aryans idea. In my honest opinion all jews should just come to America, start a little jewish community out in Minnesota like the mormons did in Utah and watch as the armada of the US navy turns the middle east into a smoking crater. Then you can all go back and reoccupy your ****ING HOLY LAND. I imagine that is the only thing that will *EVER* solve this situation.

Do you still have other stupid ideas like this ? You could perhaps send them to the UN and make a lot of money out of those.

Ok let's speak to serious guys now.

Dang >

- My expression legitimate owner was quite inadequate. (I must admit my English is far to be perfect or even good. Certainly worse than your French if you can read Flaubert. Par ailleurs, pourquoi diable Flaubert ? Il est de loin le plus fade auteur du XIXème.) I'll try to explain it in another way. The idea was that by buying land you go into an already organized society. You shouldn't expect to buy the cultural background of the ground. It allows you to become a part of the local political society. The Jewish return wasn't made in this spirit. I agree of course on the fact that the reaction of the Arabs didn't do anything positive towards a peaceful coexistence.

- Israel's birth I was speaking about is not so accurate. For me history was written in the Balfour speech of 1917. The marshall plan isn't relevant here. Indeed UK was weak but they were in charge. Weak or not they had to make choices.

- About locality and nationality. First, I'm not sure that "familiarity and prosperity" are the prime desire of exilees (no matter if you could consider it was in part voluntary). I've some Palestinian friends (Christian ones) as well as some Jews. Speaking with them I can insure you that the sense of locality is stronger than the national identity. In the other hand, the endless conflict has created a Palestinian national identity. Yes, you're right, what want now the activists from moderate to extreme is a national state. The ground has acquired a symbolic meaning. I would be curious to see if the situation in the Jewish side has evolved in the other way.

- I don't think the destruction of houses is efficient. By saying that, I don't say the Sharon's strategy doesn't give results. Indeed the work of Tsahal, of the Mossad and so on is outstanding. But I'm affraid of the mid-term consequences of this strategy. The economic deprivation of the Palestinian territory and the constant pressure put on the civilians only increase the desesperation of the population. As long as the Palestinians are enclaved a solution isn't reachable. Don't think I'm an idealist. During one of my political sciences seminar, the professor (pretty idealist and completly pro-palestinian) called me a "cynical-realist". If you open now the boundaries, we could only expect a wave of violence and a new wave of repression.

- Last point about the colonies; an interesting prospective is to give them a comparative look with the situation in Algery at the end of the decolonization war and see what the Evian agreement gave. Quite scarrying.

 

[fyrfytrhoges]

aiotron, your rhetoric has become so weak and stupid that you have actually MADE YOURSELF irrelevant, and not to be taken seriously at all, you are obviously a flame baiter and you have become the first person that I will actually use the ignore feature on this forum for. congratulations on a fine job, you actually make all my points for me, as to why I TRY not to respond or even read political debate on forums like this. from now on I will obey my own rules.