[rickcr42]

well to be consistant I have to disagree

I do not feel Bush is the idiot that he is made out to be by those with an axe to grind , just like Ronald Reagan was not a fool , nor Bush Sr. a whimp or HIS vice president a retard. (Nixon I will leave out)


See a trend here ?

And even if you do not beleive he has the mental skills to "micromanage" every detail of the daily running of the government most have to agree the cabinet and other positions of power are filled with professionals that know how to do thier job.
The general delegates to his officers and down the chain of command it goes .

back on topic :

Several have mentioned that there was some vague information of possible terrorist acts on an uncertain date to possibly do with the airlines.

BOY ! NOW THERE IS SOMETHING TO ACT ON !!!!!

Guess the pres should hve shut down the airlines for weeks or maybe put troops in the airports andstrip searched all passengers.
I am sure that would have warmed the hearts of the citizens of the United States.

Without direct intel , a snitch , there is no way to KNOW how/what/where or even IF.

The suppossed five possible terrorists that slipped across the border just before new years eve proves that.
It was a false alarm ! But what to do ?

These terrorist organisations are a tough nut to crack . Infiltration is damn near impossible , they all know each others families for generations so a stranger will not gain access to the ineer sanctum.
Bribery does not work with "true beleivers .

And the terrorists themselves often do not know what is going on !
A good percentage of the human garbage that performed the hijackings on 9-11 had NO IDEA that they were on a suicide mission until it was too late to turn back.

so how do you deal with people like that ?
Notice the ones in control have notbeen out there blowing themselves up , much easier to persuede the weak minded or those with nothing that all of thier problems are our fault and they are doing GODS WORK if they MURDER the enemies of Islam .

Maybe it is time for ole Bin Laden and his lieutenents to do some of GODS WORK and go blow themselves up

but then , they would also have to be "true beleivers" andwe know that can't be possible if they are still living and breathing

 

[kelly]

For a conspiracy to work, all parties involved must share a common motivation, have capability, and be able to cooperate. Our government has demonstrated repeatedly that if they never have common motivation, cooperation nor capability. You'd have an easier time convincing me Ted Turner and Bill Gates plotted this thing than our disorganized mess of a government.

A better question might be: Are some government agencies taking advantage of September 11 by enacting policy that they would be able to enact under no other circumstance? Then you could get my support.

 

[rickcr42]

Quote:

A better question might be: Are some government agencies taking advantage of September 11 by enacting policy that they would be able to enact under no other circumstance? Then you could get my support.

That is a tough one . I am not comfortable with MY personal freedom being at risk but the trend has been in that direction for some time now.

The ID chip incell phones is one that was in the works way before this and the "911 call locator" really does not wash .
Seems to this person that anytime the gov can track your location AND know who you are talking to they are being way too intrusive .

The ability to monitor your e-mail and online surfing is also an area of concern , as are some of the more intrusive probable cause laws.

Or video cameras at many bridges,traffic lights plus most largwe shopping area parking lots.
Oh yeah ,banks ,ATM machines,the workplace

But still , the "nothing to hide nothing to fear" expression holds some weight.
Doesthis make me comfortable

HELL NO IT DOES NOT !

Still , there has to be some way to protect the innocent.some wayto apprehend criminals after the fact.Some evidence of the crime in a court of law.

Tough job,tough balancing act.

Side A-civil liberties and basic freedom.Pursuit of happiness
Side B-protect the innocent from criminals ,terrorists.and just bad people,PROTECTING my pursuit of happiness and basic freedom

Nothing is perfect

 

[zowie]

Quote:

Originally posted by ai0tron zowie, sit down, here have a sucker... good boy... ok.. now I believe that not believing in a possibility is stupid if you don't have all the facts. In other words, denying that something could happen simply because you think the perpetrators couldn't do it. I'm not saying suspect everything, I'm saying keep your eyes open. Was that so hard little zowie, no, no it wasnt, congratulations little zowie you just learned something... whats that?? You have to use the potty, ok go ahead, jest yell if you need help... yep, there you go... good luck.

That you've responded with a childish personal attack not only says far more about you than me -- none of it good -- but also the strength of your argument. Words cannot describe how much it stings me to begin my morning by greeting my secretary, flipping through my messages, sitting down in my corner office overlooking midtown, and reviewing such a compelling missive from someone who just became old enough to order a drink last year. It'd be interesting to meet you sometime, to see how willing you'd be to demonstrate that kind of disrespect in person.

For the benefit of anyone following the substance of the sub-discussion, note that 'tron has capitulated from his prior post which said that it's stupid not to believe in something just because you dont have the facts, and now says it's stupid not to believe in the _possibility_ of something without the facts.

 

[CaptBubba]

Quote:

Originally posted by rickcr42 Nothing is perfect

No truer statement has ever been said about our government.

Our government could never get organised enough to do such a thing.

 

[grinch]

Quote:

Originally posted by rickcr42 The ID chip incell phones is one that was in the works way before this and the "911 call locator" really does not wash . Seems to this person that anytime the gov can track your location AND know who you are talking to they are being way too intrusive .

i work for a company that just finished installing all of those gsm systems into at&t wireless cell sites in the new york, connecticut, and new jersey area. it always seemed like a good idea to me, but then i don't care if the government knows i'm sitting at home.

i want to believe that the government knew something about the attacks before they happened, but i'm so far more inclined to think that our government is so filled with utter morons that there is no way they would have known. i mean come on, they couldn't even kill osama bin laden. even if they had some sort of slight information on it, they did the same thing that i would've done at the same time: nothing. i'm sure at least once a week, some yahoo is talking about blowing something up and it's not like the entire rest of the world doesn't HATE us.

come on, even osama didn't know it was going to take both buildings down and cause the bloodbath that it did. they had a better idea/plan than i could ever imagine and look at the damage they caused: phisically, emotionally, economically. it just happened to get executed (almost) perfectly and we were on the bad end. life sucks and people die, so let's all start some fake patriotism and put cheap american flag stickers on our cars they are sunbleached off in three months. this issue is dead, and i this thread is too.

 

[braillediver]

Gotta be the STUPITIST question I ever heard.

You forgot to ask it George H. Bush and Queen Elizabeth are cocaine dealers.

And we didn’t really land on the moon it was all filmed in Hollywood.

And yes George H. Bush flew in the back seat of an SR-71 to Europe to cripple any chance of jimmy carter freeing the American Hostages in Iran.

Oh yeah and the earth is flat, I just looked out the window and it’s flat for as far as I can see so that proves it.

Elvis just asked me it you have any jelly donuts?

I gotta go Jim Morrison is coming over and we’re gonna jam for awhile.


P.S. That's not me on the grassy knoll regardless of what anyone says.

And I didn't have sex with that women either.

 

[rickcr42]

Quote:

i mean come on, they couldn't even kill osama bin laden.

Too bad HE didn't have one of those tracking chips in HIS cell.

and BTW-I am not convinced he is still with the living.

Quote:

but then i don't care if the government knows i'm sitting at home.

i just worry about the potential for harm .If a thing can be done some moron will do it then convince us it is for our own good.
Such as a single computer running full time just gathering intel on phone calls , developing a trend , identifying all your contacts , knowing your patterns.
A baby sitter i don't need,unless she is cute of course

Same thing with a DNA bank for all US citizens.While in theory I can get behind it there is way too much potential for misuse by those that are in a position of power.Planted DNA would be impossibleto beat in court-even though there are "claimed" safeguards.
we all know any system canbe beat if you have the resources

 

[plainsong]

No, I don't think they knew and are covering. I think they honestly didn't know..

but I only think that because they (The government and intelligence community) are too stupid to possibly know anything about what's going on in the rest of the world.

Sorry, yeah it's my home country, and that's how I feel. You could tell me to love it or leave it, except I already left.

 

[rickcr42]

nah , no flames-your opinion is valid

Quote:

but I only think that because they (The government and intelligence community) are too stupid to possibly know anything about what's going on in the rest of the world.

everytime you get a large buracracy you lose efficiency.add in our intelligence agencies have had thier hands tied in recent years, then there are those trying to protect thier own turf................

And as I stated before , infiltrating certain groups is damn near impossible .

Not an easy job

Don't forget , 9-11 was not the first but SECOND attempt to destroy the world trade center . The first attack was from below and when that failed the next attempt was from above.

And even though the culprits were mostly caught they got nothing from them . More 'true beleivers"

There will be more attempts , some may even be successful .
Terrorism is extremely difficult to guard against unlike a conventional war where you KNOW who the enemy is and where he is at.
Again though , even conventional war is scewed when dealing with certain groups . Kinda hard to light their ass up when they hide behind civilians . One side is at a definatedisadvantage when the other uses civilian populations as just another weapon

 

[braillediver]

Let’s get real. There’s something like 35,000 airline departures daily in the USA. How many emails are sent or cell phone/telephone calls made daily in this country. I know computers are very powerful but there is a limit to what can be processed and analyzed.

Another fact would be- if the terrorists were arrested prior to the hijackings the only real crime committed were immigration offenses. All the bleeding heart liberals would have defended the rights of the terrorists since they hadn’t committed any crimes.

An airline employee at Dulles noticed that 2 of the terrorists were friends and talking to each other, she offered to get them seats next to each other. They said “no we have to sit apart”. She thought this was weird but didn’t say anything because she could get reprimanded or the airline sued for profiling individuals, it’s happened before.

The policies for the flight attendants at the time of the hijackings were to go along with the terrorists and not to resist, do as they were told.

So yeah there might be people or organizations to blame.

 

[rickcr42]

the only "blame" lies with the human garbage that would do such a thing . Not with people that before 9-11 could not even ina nightmare ever dream this could happen .

Finger pointing has never been a solution

 

[redshifter]

with all respect for our political differences here, and admitting this poll seems to be aimed at muckraking, sept 11 did help bush2's presidency. remember before sept 11 bush was portrayed in the media as a dumbass, fumbling his lines and mispronouncing and making up words. after 9/11 he went from zero to hero, and the media was falling over itself calling him "statesman like" and "presidential". also, even though it was born out of need, 9/11 allowed a collosial power grab against civil liberties, and because of percieved toughness, a republican congress. never mind the economy, never mind we failed to find bin laden "dead or alive", never mind bush2 is pushing for an unpopular conflict in iraq while caving in to north korea's thinly veiled threats of nuclear war unless they get monetary aid from the us.

no conspiracy theories here, i really don't believe the government is coordinated enough to pull an x-files. besides, conspiracy theories really feed the right-wing idea of government being too powerful mixed in with paranioa. as awful as 9/11 was i'm just pointing out bush2 did benefit.

 

[grinch]

Quote:

Originally posted by rickcr42 i just worry about the potential for harm .If a thing can be done some moron will do it then convince us it is for our own good. Such as a single computer running full time just gathering intel on phone calls , developing a trend , identifying all your contacts , knowing your patterns. A baby sitter i don't need,unless she is cute of course

the possibility for the government to use this ability for evil is very low and slight, but yes, a viable complaint. but how do you disreguard the fact that this system can help millions of people in their situations of emergency? the system is made for 911 operators and emergency services to be able to locate a cell phone user the moment they call. this means that help can be dispatched quicker and more accurately. how can you not see this as a great idea, even if the government has yet another ******** "power" to use against you?

 

[minya]

Quote:

Originally posted by redshifter no conspiracy theories here, i really don't believe the government is coordinated enough to pull an x-files. besides, conspiracy theories really feed the right-wing idea of government being too powerful mixed in with paranioa. as awful as 9/11 was i'm just pointing out bush2 did benefit.

This is pretty much how I feel. I honestly don't think anyone really knew about this beforehand and intentionally let it happen.

I do, however, think that the government made use of 9/11 in every way it could, though, to support itself. Patriot Act... sigh. Total Information Awareness Act... sigh.

It's interesting, though, that many people scorn Muslims for their extremist religious tendencies, yet fail to notice we have many groups just as extreme (and dangerous) as they living right here in our country. Not to mention one of them is our Attorney General. My philosophy in life is that you can do whatever the hell you want - as long as whatever that is does not intrude on the freedom or health of me or anyone else. Sadly, many fringes of religion - from al-Qaeda to the Christian Coalition - think their way is the right way. Will we ever learn? I don't think so.

I think I should become an Orthodox monk. I wonder where the good monasteries are...

- Chris