ONKYO DP-X1 | Dual Sabre Dacs | Balanced | Sabre BTL Amp | MQA | DSD 256 | Android 5 |

[strooper]

I am still trying to understand the above answer. But I will give you a simple one, YES. you need an amp.

I find myself, with all but the most sensitive headphones, having the volume at max 160 all the time and feel like I want a bit more volume. That means usually you could use an amp. I am not hearing impaired. It sounds okay but I want it louder. I didn't put all this $$$ and time into audio gear to get "okay" sound. I want amazing sound.

The balanced output is a little louder as is PowerAmp vs the stock player, and this is good enough for portable use with IEMs. But with the Senns 6xx and Oppo Pm3s I need an amp.

Are you joking about always having the volume at 160? What gain level? I like loud, but not "standing by a 747 at takeoff" loud.

 

[DecentLevi]

Oh I should edit an above mention that I would never recommend using the DP-X1A as a source for any serious desktop rig... what I meant was that while its' DAC section is fantastic especially for portable use, it's still a few steps behind many of the standalone DACs costing hundreds or especially thousands of dollars; OTOH I have also had the amazing (and unexpected) experience of using the DP-X1A as a data-only source. I say 'unexpected' because until a rep an an audio dealer told me to just connect this DAP to their in-house DAC via micro USB male to USB-B male, I had no idea this configuration was possible... tried the DP-X1A with both the Chord Hugo 2 and a larger (unknown) DAC, and for both the external DACs this device was recognized immediately giving me an option on the DP-X1A screen to begin what was a bit-perfect, unprocessed data stream to these DACs, providing a truly perfect stream as a source for an experience I will not soon forget. So in fact this DAP can be used as a very good source to a DAC in data-only mode for a desktop rig bypassing the internal DAC, and sounds fantastic for on the go and even quite good with external amps via analogue output, although it's internal DAC is not quite purposed for a top desktop rig, IMO.

This is the configuration to use it as a music source for an external DAC.

 

[cj3209]

Are you joking about always having the volume at 160? What gain level? I like loud, but not "standing by a 747 at takeoff" loud.

Oh I should edit an above mention that I would never recommend using the DP-X1A as a source for any serious desktop rig... what I meant was that while its' DAC section is fantastic especially for portable use, it's still a few steps behind many of the standalone DACs costing hundreds or especially thousands of dollars; OTOH I have also had the amazing (and unexpected) experience of using the DP-X1A as a data-only source. I say 'unexpected' because until a rep an an audio dealer told me to just connect this DAP to their in-house DAC via micro USB male to USB-B male, I had no idea this configuration was possible... tried the DP-X1A with both the Chord Hugo 2 and a larger (unknown) DAC, and for both the external DACs this device was recognized immediately giving me an option on the DP-X1A screen to begin what was a bit-perfect, non-encoded data stream to these DACs, providing a truly perfect stream as a source for an experience I will not soon forget. So in fact this DAP can be used as a very good source to a DAC in data-only mode for a desktop rig bypassing the internal DAC, and sounds fantastic for on the go and even quite good with external amps via analogue output, although it's internal DAC is not quite purposed for a top desktop rig, IMO.

This is the configuration to use it as a music source for an external DAC.

The other alternative as I haven't seen that kind of cable above is to use a widely available OTG-Micro USB cable adapter such as this one (cheap too):

https://www.amazon.com/CableCreatio...r=8-1-spons&keywords=otg+micro+usb+cable&th=1

Then use a regular USB cable to connect to a desktop rig. This is what I do when I want to listen to my Ether C-Flows and my desktop amp.

Cheers,

 

[Surf Monkey]

Oh I should edit an above mention that I would never recommend using the DP-X1A as a source for any serious desktop rig... what I meant was that while its' DAC section is fantastic especially for portable use, it's still a few steps behind many of the standalone DACs costing hundreds or especially thousands of dollars; OTOH I have also had the amazing (and unexpected) experience of using the DP-X1A as a data-only source. I say 'unexpected' because until a rep an an audio dealer told me to just connect this DAP to their in-house DAC via micro USB male to USB-B male, I had no idea this configuration was possible... tried the DP-X1A with both the Chord Hugo 2 and a larger (unknown) DAC, and for both the external DACs this device was recognized immediately giving me an option on the DP-X1A screen to begin what was a bit-perfect, unprocessed data stream to these DACs, providing a truly perfect stream as a source for an experience I will not soon forget. So in fact this DAP can be used as a very good source to a DAC in data-only mode for a desktop rig bypassing the internal DAC, and sounds fantastic for on the go and even quite good with external amps via analogue output, although it's internal DAC is not quite purposed for a top desktop rig, IMO.

This is the configuration to use it as a music source for an external DAC.

I use this setup to send data to my Schiit Stack. Works great.

 

[Evilcartman]

Thanks for the input DecentLevi and Evilcartman.
I've got until December for the HD6XX's, so in the meantime I'll keep an eye out for a good deal for a portable amp.

The A4 has amazing bang for its buck. Even a $30 CMoy adds to the sound ( remember Grado use to charge $500 for one and people loved it) There is E12DIY on ebay right now selling with a Muses02 chip if you wanna get fancy. I spent a lot of time playing around with different chi0ps and it gave me a better sense of what op-amps and buffers do.

I try to put 66% of my money into the headphones, and the last third into the amp. More than that and I should be upgrading the cans first. I read this many years ago and it has served me well as my first instincts were to go all amp. My first pair of really good cans was a revelation. What were they, the Senn HD580 of course.

Are you joking about always having the volume at 160? What gain level? I like loud, but not "standing by a 747 at takeoff" loud.

160 is just the max output of the player, not a decibel level in and of itself, it is just voltage. It depends on the requirements and sensitivity of the headphones. Even some low impedance headphones have lowered the damping and require more vpltage. Planar Magnetics take some juice to drive, even the Oppo, and they just aren't that loud at 160.

If I am listening at comfortable volume, I like to have at least 20% more headroom to play with. In my humble view, if you have to crank it over 80%, the headphones are too hard to drive and the amp is working too hard. With this guy, output has always been an issue, no one even starts listening until about 80% (130). So I pop on my favorite amp and it does sound better at similar volume.

"Need" is a subjective word. This player greatly benefits form having an amp with every wired headphone I own, including the Senn. I am tired of lugging around an amp when I am out an about, so I usually don't, and the results are still good. At home, they are magnificent, from my humble homemade cmoy to my delicious HiFiman tube amp.

 

[Evilcartman]

The other alternative as I haven't seen that kind of cable above is to use a widely available OTG-Micro USB cable adapter such as this one (cheap too):

https://www.amazon.com/CableCreation-Adapter-Samsung-Android-Function/dp/B01LYYAOIE/ref=sr_1_1_sspa?ie=UTF8&qid=1507609284&sr=8-1-spons&keywords=otg+micro+usb+cable&th=1

Then use a regular USB cable to connect to a desktop rig. This is what I do when I want to listen to my Ether C-Flows and my desktop amp.

Cheers,

I have to say be careful. I have had little luck using the Onkyo as a transport. I find the OTG very finicky and Poweramp and Plex, my go to players, do not work at all with OTG. At least I have not been able to make them work. @DecentLevi seems to have had better luck than me with OTG

Of course, at home, every device I own is a transport so it is not an issue. I have a NAS with my music on it and every computer, wireless device, and htpc has access via dlna, samba, nfs, and upnp. I have no shortage of transports nor have I ever heard any difference in a digital transport outside of jitter. So if you're putting the Onkyo into a DAC it may as well be a phone or a computer.

 

[addyg]

I have to say be careful. I have had little luck using the Onkyo as a transport. I find the OTG very finicky and Poweramp and Plex, my go to players, do not work at all with OTG. At least I have not been able to make them work. @DecentLevi seems to have had better luck than me with OTG

Of course, at home, every device I own is a transport so it is not an issue. I have a NAS with my music on it and every computer, wireless device, and htpc has access via dlna, samba, nfs, and upnp. I have no shortage of transports nor have I ever heard any difference in a digital transport outside of jitter. So if you're putting the Onkyo into a DAC it may as well be a phone or a computer.

Otg require a good cable, try buy brand cable , most are $20-60 USD. Don't buy no name cable.

 

[addyg]

I've been really enjoying my Onkyo digital music player for six months now and thought I would share with you guys some of the solutions I've come up with to various problems and see if they might help increase everyone else's enjoyment of this amazing device. Forgive the wall of text I've tried to divide up the relevant sections to make for easy parsing.

OUTPUTS: I make my own cables and it's very difficult to solder a 2.5 mm 4 pole balanced plug so I've soldered them with 3.5 mm plugs and I have two adapters that are both 3.5 mm female. One goes to the balanced out and ends in a 2.5 mm plug and the other converts the balanced plug to a three pole plug and it plugs in to the regular unbalanced output.

All my headphones have the same 3.5 mm balanced plug and easily switch between inputs. Some of my cables are not interchangeable so this also allows me to use my balanced headphones with any single ended source.

So far, every factory headphone cable I've cut the end off has had four wires, which has allowed me to solder it to a balanced connection.

POWER: As well as using the minimal firmware and having a rooted device, I use a program called AUTO-OFF which simply turns off the device after an hour if I'm not using it. This ended the frustration of constantly finding my player completely drained of power after setting it away on the table for a day. Since then I have never encountered this frustration. I have yet to find a super low power standby mode for the player like the OPUSI has. So yeah I have to always turn it on but the thing boots up pretty fast.

APPS: this is a pretty easy. I use the POWER AMP alpha version tweaked to go through the DAC, and also use the Pioneer and Onkyo native music apps. Mostly I use power amp for my main shuffle and then if I want to hear a particular song I can easily search for it on the Onkyo apps without having to lose my place in my shuffle playlist.

EASE OF USE: this was a big one for me which I found the player very bulky to keep pulling in and out of my pocket to change songs while I was jogging. Plus I really didn't want to drop the thing on the ground. This was solved by a tiny six dollar camera shutter remote from Amazon that lets me change the volume fast forward / rewind from a Bluetooth dongle I wear around my neck when I'm exercising.

This was such a critical addition to my listing experience that I bought several and keep them hanging around the house on lanyards. It's called the "Bluetooth shutter and music remote" and is a six dollar add on item. It works flawlessly. I'm pretty sure the Onkyo doesn't accept in line controls and I usually don't like them in my cables anyway. This wireless solution is much more elegant and convenient. The only downside being it requires the Bluetooth radio to be on but it doesn't seem to drain the battery that much faster.

PROTECTION: I use the branded Onkyo case and then excellent MIYAVIX glass screen protector. All of this fits perfectly in the neoprene case that came with one of my Western Digital passport hard drive's. The Onkyo leather case is so nice I wanted a case to protect it also . I'm sure there's some sort of existential lesson in that.

When I need more protection I use the Amazon hardshell case designed for portable hard drive's. You need to break in the corners a tiny bit, but it will fit. That's my traveling case.

STORAGE: I have a big collection I wanted to get the most out of this device so I bought two 256 GB microSD cards. This is a tremendous premium over buying 200 GB cards so that extra hundred gigabytes cost a lot of money. This is somewhat mitigated by my choice of Silicon Power micro SD cards. They are much less expensive but not cheap enough that they are obvious fakes so I ordered one and I ran several tests using tools designed to detect fake SD cards. Normally I am not one to skimp on memory cards and I usually only buy the big brand names but this little card surprise me. It performed well in tests and its performance is more than enough for this particular usage. I was able to get them for about $105 a piece versus 160 for the SanDisk or Samsung cards. Even if you were buying the smaller capacity cards, you can save a lot of money by going with that perfectly adequate brand.

IEMs: I have six or seven regular pairs of headphones I use with this player but mostly when I go out i'm going for portability so I use my RHA ti20 or Pinnacle P1s. Both of these are amazing headphones for the money and they sound different enough that I usually carry them both around depending on what mood I'm in. Also, The P1s have a balanced plug and silver cable. The RHA do not have detachable cables and I couldn't bring myself to cut the end off off them. Every now and then I will take my OPPO PM3s out and about. These are my around the house office EDC use. I can't spend the entire day with buds in my ears.

My HiFiMans are a little hard to drive so I usually use the non-portable music set up for them.

Well these are some of the solutions I've come up with the every day problems I've encountered with the player. I hope they can be of use to somebody.

Thanks for review

 

[addyg]

Some good usb otg cable

http://www.adl-av.com/products/cables/otg/

 

[Evilcartman]

Otg require a good cable, try buy brand cable , most are $20-60 USD. Don't buy no name cable.

I have a Samsung branded certified OTG cable. The apps I want to use just don't have the option.

Oh I should edit an above mention that I would never recommend using the DP-X1A as a source for any serious desktop rig... what I meant was that while its' DAC section is fantastic especially for portable use, it's still a few steps behind many of the standalone DACs costing hundreds or especially thousands of dollars

Really? Because it's the same chips that are used in those rigs that cost thousands of dollars. The little Onkyo even uses one for each channel and put them on a separate board to which is more than what some of those very expensive boxes do. I can tell by your other posts that we think very differently about audio gear. But I really have to take exception to your claim that these DACs arent made for primetime.



. .

 

[mrmoto050]

I am still trying to understand the above answer. But I will give you a simple one, YES. you need an amp.

I find myself, with all but the most sensitive headphones, having the volume at max 160 all the time and feel like I want a bit more volume. That means usually you could use an amp. I am not hearing impaired. It sounds okay but I want it louder. I didn't put all this $$$ and time into audio gear to get "okay" sound. I want amazing sound.

The balanced output is a little louder as is PowerAmp vs the stock player, and this is good enough for portable use with IEMs. But with the Senns 6xx and Oppo Pm3s I need an amp.

I have no issues listening without a amplifier with my PM2's in Balanced out. jm2c. I never have to turn up past 90 mostly lower. Loud does not always mean amazing sound. imho.

 

[mrmoto050]

I have a Samsung branded certified OTG cable. The apps I want to use just don't have the option.



Really? Because it's the same chips that are used in those rigs that cost thousands of dollars. The little Onkyo even uses one for each channel and put them on a separate board to which is more than what some of those very expensive boxes do. I can tell by your other posts that we think very differently about audio gear. But I really have to take exception to your claim that these DACs arent made for primetime.



. .

+1

 

[mrmoto050]

Are you joking about always having the volume at 160? What gain level? I like loud, but not "standing by a 747 at takeoff" loud.

+1

 

[DecentLevi]

I have a Samsung branded certified OTG cable. The apps I want to use just don't have the option.

Really? Because it's the same chips that are used in those rigs that cost thousands of dollars. The little Onkyo even uses one for each channel and put them on a separate board to which is more than what some of those very expensive boxes do. I can tell by your other posts that we think very differently about audio gear. But I really have to take exception to your claim that these DACs arent made for primetime.

. .

OK so here we are on a thread for a DAP, which is by definition a DAC + amp unit with an emphasis on portable use, especially for efficient IEMs and low/medium efficiency headphones - but some of us are ascertaining that it should somehow be on the same level as full-size desktop DACs that cost hundreds or thousands of dollars; or that this DAP is meant for summit-fi desktop rigs. I strongly encourage anybody with these notions to PLEASE take more of a facts-based approach before making unproven claims like these: make such a comparison and judge with your own ears whether you like a larger or the Onkyo DAC, or compare the specs of each model. I can tell you with utmost certainty that even with my modest $450 DAC setup I'm using now for my 'transportable rig' (Modi 2 multibit with two USB components via PC source), that the difference using the same songs, same external amp and same test songs is... substantial, unwavering and unmistakable.

Don't get me wrong, the DAC section of the DP-X1A is fantastic, and to me even much better than than the higher priced Queestyle QP1R and a handful of others I've tried. Even it does at least as good as a PC if not better as a data source in OTG mode, and does sound great, even fantastic with an external amp via analogue out... but that's one of the quirks in this vastly diverse and evolving hobby, is that there's always something better . Trust me, and ask any of the fellow DAC gurus around, they will all tell you that there are even better performing DACs than the one that occupies half of the DP-X1A. You even said it yourself, that the configuration of this DAP is more than what some of those very expensives boxes do, which I do agree with of some of the sub-$200 ones I've tried. But keep in mind:

- Try something for yourself, or at least get cross-checked data from multiple users you can trust... before making claims
- "Implementation is everything". Several examples have surfaced, showing two DACs using the exact same chip can sound completely different, depending on the connecting components
- Full size DAC's can range from around $50 - $35,000 averaging at (perhaps?) $800, where the DAC of this DAP is worth a factor less than the entire unit of around $530
- Many full size DACs use R2R or 'multibit' technology, tubes, large capacitors, sometimes silver wiring, and other components that make them unique from the DAC section of this device
- Full size DAC's are built as the powerhorse to satisfy full-size rigs in hi-res fidelity, including mid and summit-fi upstream amps and headphones that can cost anywhere from... say $200 - $20,000 per example
- DAPs are geared towards the audiophile or 'hi-fi audio enthusiast', delivering enriching sound especially for on the go or smaller size headphones / earphones

I'm by no means an expert on the circuitry / scientific formulas that make a DAC work, though there are a few that approach this level such as @warrenpchi, @Stillhart or perhaps @rosgr63, but I'll assure you that they would all agree there is no point to this argument comparing apples to oranges of entirely different classes, entirely different purposes, and entirely different layouts and prices. I have however, been one of the lucky ones to have been able to try virtually all of the current top summit-fi DACs at various trade shows I've been to, including but not limited to the Yggdrasil, Holo Audio Spring level 3, Hugo 2 and many other low/mid fi DACs which has shown me the difference between DACs can be absolutely staggering and can take good enough upstream gear to staggering heights. You can see from the last two points that this argument is, by definition unfair and is comparing apples to oranges.

I'll admit it was one of my earlier comments that got this topic started, when really I should have just said that the DAP is not meant as a replacement for a standalone DAC.

 

[TheNoose]

OK so here we are on a thread for a DAP, which is by definition a DAC + amp unit with an emphasis on portable use, especially for efficient IEMs and low/medium efficiency headphones - but some of us are ascertaining that it should somehow be on the same level as full-size desktop DACs that cost hundreds or thousands of dollars; or that this DAP is meant for summit-fi desktop rigs. I strongly encourage anybody with these notions to PLEASE use more of a scientific method before making claims like these: make such a comparison and judge with your own ears whether you like a larger or the Onkyo DAC, or compare the stats of each model. I can tell you with utmost certainty that even with my modest $450 DAC setup I'm using now (Modi 2 multibit with two USB components via PC source), that the difference using the same songs, same external amp and same test songs is... substantial, unwavering and unmistakable.

Don't get me wrong, the DAC section of the DP-X1A is fantastic, and to me even much better than than the higher priced Queestyle QP1R and a handful of others I've tried. Even it does at least as good as a PC if not better as a data source in OTG mode, and does sound great, even fantastic with an external amp via analogue out... but that's one of the quirks in this vastly diverse and evolving hobby, is that there's always something better . Trust me, and ask any of the fellow DAC gurus around, they will all tell you that there are even better performing DACs than the one that occupies half of the DP-X1A. You even said it yourself, that the configuration of this DAP is more than what some of those very expensives boxes do, which I do agree with of some of the sub-$200 ones I've tried. But keep in mind:

- Try something for yourself, or at least get cross-checked data from multiple users you can trust... before making claims
- "Implementation is everything". Several examples have surfaced, showing two DACs using the exact same chip can sound completely different, depending on the connecting components
- Full size DAC's can range from around $50 - $35,000 averaging at (perhaps?) $800, where the DAC of this DAP is worth a factor less than the entire unit of around $530
- Many full size DACs use R2R or 'multibit' technology, tubes, large capacitors, sometimes silver wiring, and other components that make them unique from the DAC section of this device
- Full size DAC's are built as the powerhorse to satisfy full-size rigs in hi-res fidelity, including mid and summit-fi upstream amps and headphones that can cost anywhere from... say $200 - $20,000 per example
- DAPs are geared towards the audiophile or 'hi-fi audio enthusiast', delivering enriching sound especially for on the go or smaller size headphones / earphones

I'm by no means an expert on the circuitry / scientific formulas that make a DAC work, though there are a few that approach this level such as @warrenpchi, @Stillhart or perhaps @rosgr63, but I'll assure you that they would all agree there is no point to this argument comparing apples to oranges of entirely different classes, entirely different purposes, and entirely different layouts and prices. I have however, been one of the lucky ones to have been able to try virtually all of the current top summit-fi DACs at various trade shows I've been to, including but not limited to the Yggdrasil, Holo Audio Spring level 3, Hugo 2 and many other low/mid fi DACs which has shown me the difference between DACs can be absolutely staggering and can take good enough upstream gear to staggering heights. You can see from the last two points that this argument is, by definition unfair and is comparing apples to oranges.

I'll admit it was one of my earlier comments that got this topic started, when really I should have just said that the DAP is not meant as a replacement for a standalone DAC.

Dear DecentLevi
I agree with everything you’ve said here. It’s is obvious to me.

I’d like to ask you if you happened to heard say a Denfrips Terminator and a TotalDAC in your show experience? This is certainly off topic so may wish tp pm me.

Thanks for providing some boundaries to the conversation.