Ok, now, I stated that there's an issue with how third party apps interface with the Onkyo audio hardware (essentially the Music Playback API), and then you say I'm wrong, and correct me saying essentially the same thing
My case in point (about the Android API) has been stated as early as post
#3487 and
#3477.
Now, you can't create a new/modified API and expect third party apps to work in the usual sense, nor can you expect third party apps to update automatically - not without publishing the new/modified API.
Take for example - your Win XP vs Win 10 example, obviously apps that worked previously on Win XP may not work on WIn 10 - exactly why Microsoft published updated API.
Now, you might argue that Onkyo is not obliged to fix this issue, as users can simply use the stock music app.
This generally is true, except that Onkyo is obliged to fix the issue for Tidal/Spotify (which are also third party apps) due in part to its marketing the player as a possible streamer.
My point here, is this issue is on Onkyo to solve, whether it be by a firmware update or publishing new updated sources to their modified API.
I still sincerely believe you have missed a crucial point in this entire discussion, and it is to do with how DSP apps work outside the norm of not using the standardised Android audio API.
I have advised for you to do what I did, actually ask developers how their DSP apps work when interfacing with Android. I only say this as I myself have had such issues, and I learned a lot from them when talking to app developers. I have written about my experiences s few paragraphs down.
First, and observation.
Your entire argument rests on that the DSP apps such as Neutron and Gonemad work by interfacing directly to the Android audio API whist still utilising DSP via CPU.
I have advised this is not the case.
This is where we differ, even though we both have a high understanding of audio API.
Also, I have said, maintained and spoke about these third party apps before I replied to yourself; my posts are public record and are in this thread (Tue and Wed to be more precise).
My stance has not changed.
Another two Head-Fi'ers have shown actual API code, how certain DSP apps interface with Android, and what changes could be implemented to work with Onkyo's modified API. I have responded to both in detail and I went outside of this forum for further advice, whereby I stumbled on further information that I have posted.
This should be taken into serious consideration when discussing this topic.
Furthermore, I have advised that the Onkyo modified audio API is able to work with the vast majority of apps that conform to using the standard audio API protocol. This has not changed. What I mean by this is that when an app, such as Tidal or YouTube, send a digital audio signal to the Android audio API, the Onkyo audio API is still set to receive this digital audio but route it to the ESS Sabre DAC's and/or route elsewhere for DSP then DAC's. Here the Onkyo audio API's have complete control, only because it is not being bypassed.
However this new Onkyo audio API code may not work with DSP based apps.
DSP based apps do not interface to the standard Android audio API and work around it. In the case of the DP-X1 it is likely that whilst they bypass standard protocol, the Onkyo audio API's still take the digital audio signal as well, simultaneously, thus causing multiple instances of audio chains. Intermittent noise is to do with a cross between two timing issues on two audio data streams.
Remember that, unlike Apple, Android are ok, to a certain degree, with apps that don't use standard Android API's, but the onus is then on the developer, not Android.
I shall give a personal example. I had intermittent noise issues occurring on the Samsung Galaxy Note 2 when using the first public Beta UAPP. I also had issues when using my phone in OTG to my CEntrance HiFi-M8.
I didn't go to Android and ask for a fix, because they won't. All other apps except this DSP based UAPP worked. I went to the developer of UAPP instead, had email discussions with him, tested various incremental updated beta UAPP apps till a solution was presented. His solution was to change the code to accept different timings when interfacing with Android and bypassing the Android audio API (so DSP can be done in real time with the CPU).
When I got the Note 3 I had similar issues with Neutron, but only using my phone, no other device. I did the same thing, spoke to the developer, tested incremental beta apps till a solution occurred. In his case the Neutron app wasn't configured to talk to the CPU on the (then) new Android Kitkat OS as the API's were changed.
Your solution is, essentially, for Onkyo to contact each and every DSP based app developer to add and modify a code in the Onkyo audio API so that they can interface with the DP-X1 correctly, simply because these apps do not conform with the Android audio API in the first place. This will be a very long fix if Onkyo took this route. If the app makers make another change then Onkyo would again have to reassess their Onkyo audio API's each and every time, to correct another company's app code.
As two previous Head-Fi'ers posted and implied, and I have repeatedly tried to explain, these few DSP app developers essentially need to add a simple set of code to talk to the Onkyo audio API. Whether they do is dependent on whether they are aware of the Onkyo DP-X1 (and Pioneer XDP-100R). This is a much faster workaround if they are aware of the new Onkyo Android audio API.
The only main point here is who is to make a fix.
Onkyo, who have set their API to, at least, conform to the standard Android audio API for most apps, to fix apps that do not conform to standard Android API's.
Or, for DSP based apps to allow a small modification of their code to use or bypass the Onkyo Android audio API correctly.
On top of this, numerous users have used many non-DSP based apps that work on the Onkyo DP-X1, in single ended unbalanced and AGC balanced.
If one was to check most popular apps that are not-DSP based then they should find that they work.
In a previous post I have done this, and so have others, and the Onkyo DP-X1 played such apps without intermittent noise issues which started this topic.
Apps that don't work are ones which do not use the DAC to do first stage digital audio conversion via hardware SOC chips, but use DSP instead.
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For me, I think it is very odd that a user of the Onkyo DP-X1 wishes to not use the ESS Sabre DAC's for digital-to-audio conversion, but rather use the Snapdragon CPU to do DSP and only use the ESS Sabre DAC's second phase; to receive the pre-prepared modulated signal from CPU and convert this into analogue.
As the DSP based apps do not conform to standard Android audio API I don't even think that AGC/Balanced, Gain will work correctly either (or cause issues).
In other words, I am concerned that users who want to use the Onkyo DP-X1 are, whether knowingly or unknowingly, aware that by using DSP apps that they are effectively bypassing the hardware DAC chip for data conversation.
If this is what a user wants to do, I still kindly yet strongly suggest to contact the app developer and advise of the DP-X1 existence. API code has been published in this thread just a few pages back too.
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One last thing, do not take this post as a retaliation, as it is not. Discussions on such topics, which we are both obviously very passionate about, and in good manner (or humour), is a great positive, as sharing knowledge, thoughts and opinions is good.
There is never a single path to an answer, but just because we have differing opinions doesn't make either of us correct or incorrect (unless shown otherwise). It just means we both love tech, audio and banter.
I really wanted you to know that, as i have no issues with yourself and I welcome your points.
If my posts sound straight laced, it's not against yourself.
I can only hope that this post has at least made some sense.
^^
, you can google and read up on it.
