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ONKYO DP-X1 | Dual Sabre Dacs | Balanced | Sabre BTL Amp | MQA | DSD 256 | Android 5 |

Discussion in 'Portable Source Gear' started by t.r.a.n.c.e., Sep 11, 2015.
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  1. TheOneInYellow
    Ok, issues that I have, one is possibly serious, the others are annoying:


    • Screen is at maximum brightness no matter what brightness level you set. This is crap. When I use the player in Stand Alone Mode (WiFi off, Bluetooth off, screen off, side buttons and volume potentiometer active) I get a lot of run time. At home I get through a good portion of the day but battery is very quickly sapped using High Gain and AKG K 712 headphones, but it's too fast.
      Brightness needs to be fixed as it's the biggest battery hogger in battery stats.
      As I'm commuting tomorrow it'll be interesting to see battery usage,

    • Album art issues.
      - You can NOT have more than one embedded piece of album artwork in an audio file, as the default Onkyo DP-X1 Music App will only show the last artwork in the file. Took me ages to prepare copies of music for my DP-X1 with just single embedded artwork.
      - Very large (dimensions and file size) embedded artwork will not be shown.
      - Onkyo DP-X1 Music App will not obtain artwork from root of music source folder.

    • I eat, sleep, dream about the Onkyo DP-X1. It's taken over. Not sure if I need help or just run with it...
     
    masterpfa likes this.
  2. Whitigir
    Is this the first serious DAP you have ? Must be since you dream about it lol
     
  3. TheOneInYellow

    The MicroSD card may be an issue, unsure.

    What type of card, MicroSDHC, or MicroSDXC, UHS-I/II/III?
    If you have a model number great, but that's hard to find.
    I'd recommend to get a computer and do a memory check on your card to discover what card it is and check for any bad memory blocks.

    I'm saving up for the awesome Lexar Professional 128 GB 1000X MicroSDXC card myself, probably next month.

    Otherwise, I'm pondering what else is causing this, though I have one theory...
    Your cable or jack is knackered. Yeah, I know right, could it be?
    Check with another device to rule that out...
     
  4. TheOneInYellow

    Yes


    ...
    ....
    .....

    47de8070-feda-438a-bea8-fe13f1fa604e.jpg

    ...

    Well i wasn't even supposed to buy this, was looking at the DAP market and hated the prices. But the import price of the DP-X1 plus it's aesthetics made me swoon and weak at the kness...I caved...

    ...

    I'm totally normal TRUTH
     
  5. Zenifyx
     
    Ok, now, I stated that there's an issue with how third party apps interface with the Onkyo audio hardware (essentially the Music Playback API), and then you say I'm wrong, and correct me saying essentially the same thing [​IMG]
    My case in point (about the Android API) has been stated as early as post #3487 and #3477.
     
    Now, you can't create a new/modified API and expect third party apps to work in the usual sense, nor can you expect third party apps to update automatically - not without publishing the new/modified API.
    Take for example - your Win XP vs Win 10 example, obviously apps that worked previously on Win XP may not work on WIn 10 - exactly why Microsoft published updated API.
    Now, you might argue that Onkyo is not obliged to fix this issue, as users can simply use the stock music app.
    This generally is true, except that Onkyo is obliged to fix the issue for Tidal/Spotify (which are also third party apps) due in part to its marketing the player as a possible streamer.
    My point here, is this issue is on Onkyo to solve, whether it be by a firmware update or publishing new updated sources to their modified API.
     
    EDIT: Following some comments on the issue being with music players that utilize DSP, I uploaded the test track onto Youtube (no DSP AFAIK).
    The result is that the distortion is still present.
    For those that wish to try for yourself, link is here - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HgFz9_umqzU
     
  6. Sonic Defender Contributor
    It is about the storage capacity, not holding a charge, or at least that is how I interpret the situation. You would get a DAP that can run for about 4 hours. We already have audiophile quality portability. We don't even know if those DAC innovations could effect audible sound. But yes, I agree, and I did already state that once batteries catch up to DACs, and they will, it will change the face of portable audio, smartphones etc.
     
  7. Whitigir

    You are correct, and that is what Sony patented on...everything is working the way that it is supposed to, but longer life, and faster charge :D, you can google and read up on it.
     
  8. Ffenix
    Wow this thread has taken a turn. I'm not gonna defend Onkyo or any company for shipping a broken product but some of the concerns to me aren't really errors on Onkyo's part but more like missed opportunities for Onkyo to improve on. For example:
     
    (1) Lack of access to folders or directories
    Onkyo's HF Player App (their original music app, not in the DP-X1) for Android and iOS doesn't have access to folders or directories either, so I wasn't surprised that the DP-X1 music app didn't have easy access to folders/directories.
     
    (2) Lack of ReplayGain or Sound Check
    Not having RG sucks because I use it for all my music. I hate fiddling around with the volume knob every time the next track plays. I hope Onkyo implements this one in the future but not holding my breath since their HF Player never had RG in the first place.
     
    (3) Third party software not accessing Onkyo's DAC
    While this sucks major for sure, it's still not surprising. I don't expect Onkyo to give out APIs or whatever protocol to third party devs to access the DP-X1's DAC, unless Onkyo is willing to sell or make exceptions. Therefore, I'm not holding my breath. At least this DAP (and Sony's Android Walkmans, and other Android DAPs) allow users to install third party apps, you can't even do that with A&K and many other DAPs.
     
    Other problems such as the broken 2.5mm balanced jack or the firmware made the sound worse, they're just strange to me. I dunno man. If that's what you experience, that's what you experience. *shrugs*
     
    Any other problems aside from these though are fair game for criticism and Onkyo should try to rectify them quickly as the can.
     
  9. sq3rjick
    On the third point, it looks like Onkyo changed the Android system to send the standard Android sound API calls to its DAC.  Theoretically, there shouldn't need to be anything changed (except for maybe the one flag passed to not set the mode to low latency) for an app to make use of the DAC/amp natively.  It's only on the applications that were CUSTOM-WRITTEN to BYPASS the android standard APIs where this is an issue (Neutron, Gonemad, etc).
     
    Points 1 and 2 are completely fair, though.  No music app out there should neglect folder browsing or replaygain.
     
  10. TheOneInYellow

    I still sincerely believe you have missed a crucial point in this entire discussion, and it is to do with how DSP apps work outside the norm of not using the standardised Android audio API.

    I have advised for you to do what I did, actually ask developers how their DSP apps work when interfacing with Android. I only say this as I myself have had such issues, and I learned a lot from them when talking to app developers. I have written about my experiences s few paragraphs down.

    First, and observation.
    Your entire argument rests on that the DSP apps such as Neutron and Gonemad work by interfacing directly to the Android audio API whist still utilising DSP via CPU.
    I have advised this is not the case.
    This is where we differ, even though we both have a high understanding of audio API.

    Also, I have said, maintained and spoke about these third party apps before I replied to yourself; my posts are public record and are in this thread (Tue and Wed to be more precise).
    My stance has not changed.

    Another two Head-Fi'ers have shown actual API code, how certain DSP apps interface with Android, and what changes could be implemented to work with Onkyo's modified API. I have responded to both in detail and I went outside of this forum for further advice, whereby I stumbled on further information that I have posted.
    This should be taken into serious consideration when discussing this topic.

    Furthermore, I have advised that the Onkyo modified audio API is able to work with the vast majority of apps that conform to using the standard audio API protocol. This has not changed. What I mean by this is that when an app, such as Tidal or YouTube, send a digital audio signal to the Android audio API, the Onkyo audio API is still set to receive this digital audio but route it to the ESS Sabre DAC's and/or route elsewhere for DSP then DAC's. Here the Onkyo audio API's have complete control, only because it is not being bypassed.
    However this new Onkyo audio API code may not work with DSP based apps.
    DSP based apps do not interface to the standard Android audio API and work around it. In the case of the DP-X1 it is likely that whilst they bypass standard protocol, the Onkyo audio API's still take the digital audio signal as well, simultaneously, thus causing multiple instances of audio chains. Intermittent noise is to do with a cross between two timing issues on two audio data streams.
    Remember that, unlike Apple, Android are ok, to a certain degree, with apps that don't use standard Android API's, but the onus is then on the developer, not Android.

    I shall give a personal example. I had intermittent noise issues occurring on the Samsung Galaxy Note 2 when using the first public Beta UAPP. I also had issues when using my phone in OTG to my CEntrance HiFi-M8.
    I didn't go to Android and ask for a fix, because they won't. All other apps except this DSP based UAPP worked. I went to the developer of UAPP instead, had email discussions with him, tested various incremental updated beta UAPP apps till a solution was presented. His solution was to change the code to accept different timings when interfacing with Android and bypassing the Android audio API (so DSP can be done in real time with the CPU).

    When I got the Note 3 I had similar issues with Neutron, but only using my phone, no other device. I did the same thing, spoke to the developer, tested incremental beta apps till a solution occurred. In his case the Neutron app wasn't configured to talk to the CPU on the (then) new Android Kitkat OS as the API's were changed.

    Your solution is, essentially, for Onkyo to contact each and every DSP based app developer to add and modify a code in the Onkyo audio API so that they can interface with the DP-X1 correctly, simply because these apps do not conform with the Android audio API in the first place. This will be a very long fix if Onkyo took this route. If the app makers make another change then Onkyo would again have to reassess their Onkyo audio API's each and every time, to correct another company's app code.
    As two previous Head-Fi'ers posted and implied, and I have repeatedly tried to explain, these few DSP app developers essentially need to add a simple set of code to talk to the Onkyo audio API. Whether they do is dependent on whether they are aware of the Onkyo DP-X1 (and Pioneer XDP-100R). This is a much faster workaround if they are aware of the new Onkyo Android audio API.

    The only main point here is who is to make a fix.
    Onkyo, who have set their API to, at least, conform to the standard Android audio API for most apps, to fix apps that do not conform to standard Android API's.
    Or, for DSP based apps to allow a small modification of their code to use or bypass the Onkyo Android audio API correctly.

    On top of this, numerous users have used many non-DSP based apps that work on the Onkyo DP-X1, in single ended unbalanced and AGC balanced.
    If one was to check most popular apps that are not-DSP based then they should find that they work.
    In a previous post I have done this, and so have others, and the Onkyo DP-X1 played such apps without intermittent noise issues which started this topic.
    Apps that don't work are ones which do not use the DAC to do first stage digital audio conversion via hardware SOC chips, but use DSP instead.

    ---

    For me, I think it is very odd that a user of the Onkyo DP-X1 wishes to not use the ESS Sabre DAC's for digital-to-audio conversion, but rather use the Snapdragon CPU to do DSP and only use the ESS Sabre DAC's second phase; to receive the pre-prepared modulated signal from CPU and convert this into analogue.
    As the DSP based apps do not conform to standard Android audio API I don't even think that AGC/Balanced, Gain will work correctly either (or cause issues).

    In other words, I am concerned that users who want to use the Onkyo DP-X1 are, whether knowingly or unknowingly, aware that by using DSP apps that they are effectively bypassing the hardware DAC chip for data conversation.
    If this is what a user wants to do, I still kindly yet strongly suggest to contact the app developer and advise of the DP-X1 existence. API code has been published in this thread just a few pages back too.

    ---

    One last thing, do not take this post as a retaliation, as it is not. Discussions on such topics, which we are both obviously very passionate about, and in good manner (or humour), is a great positive, as sharing knowledge, thoughts and opinions is good.

    There is never a single path to an answer, but just because we have differing opinions doesn't make either of us correct or incorrect (unless shown otherwise). It just means we both love tech, audio and banter.
    I really wanted you to know that, as i have no issues with yourself and I welcome your points.
    If my posts sound straight laced, it's not against yourself.

    I can only hope that this post has at least made some sense.

    ^^
     
  11. Zenifyx
     
    Please stop stating your hypotheses as a fact - it is misleading and leads others to make the same incorrect assumptions.
    As I have stated above, I tested it out on Youtube (which has no DSP stage) and there was indeed distortion - you may test it out yourself.
    The same occurs on Play Music.
    Might I add - Youtube and Play Music are both Google Apps - they are essentially published by the same company that published the standard Android API.
     
    @TheOneInYellow
    You have continually insisted that the problem lies with DSP based players - all without a concrete example of a third party app without DSP where the distortion is not present
    Kindly check out my EDIT above in which I tried out Youtube - an app with no DSP.
    Try it out for yourself, I believe your conclusion will be severely different.
    With regards to non-standard APIs, I think Google apps are the most standardized example of an app utilizing the standard APIs as you can get - TESTED - distortions on Youtube/Play Music.
     
  12. sq3rjick
    I am a Java developer and develop on Android. I know what the hell I'm talking about.  Please kindly stop spreading your misinformation.
     
    TheOneInYellow and masterpfa like this.
  13. TheOneInYellow


    1. This is certainly a 50/50 with the community. I don't use folders but I know some users do. Maybe Onkyo could add this if they have been made aware of this?

    2. ReplayGain and Sound check are not common features all users use, and with great advances in volume potentiometers these features are used mostly by legacy users. However, as above, maybe contact Onkyo?

    3. We need to end this talk of third party apps not accessing the DAC, and instead rephrase this to apps that do and apps that do not conform to standard Android audio API.
      I say this because I do not want user's to be under the impression that apps such as Tidal, YouTube, games, cannot work on the DP-X1; they can, with many users reporting this as such.
      It is a small subset of apps that don't, ones that use DSP for audio conversion rather than hardware DAC's.

    The broken 2.5 mm jack should also not be taken as a problem with the Onkyo DP-X1 as there has been, as of yet, zero information in how it occurred. Thus to imply that the DP-X1 has a QC issue is very unfair.
    Whoever knows of the source of the pictures can post here so we can finally know what actually happened, then make an informed opinion.

    The firmware issue is odd but again needs to be taken into context. A single user reported a change in SQ from one firmware to another. The user liked the older firmware SQ.
    However, another user might like the SQ of the newer firmware.
    Or some users may report no change.
    This needs testing to verify such points, and again should not put Onkyo into a bad light.

    My issue with Onkyo that is very serious is that the brightness cannot be changed on the DP-X1, as it has no effect.
    This is awful for battery life.

    Here are three pics highlighting my problem:

    20160115_225243.jpg
    20160115_225258.jpg
    20160115_225541.jpg
     
  14. Ffenix
     
    Well, these are essentially (let's not get it twisted, I'm speaking in general terms) smartphone apps in a non-smartphone device, and Onkyo has never bothered to do this in their original HF Player app, and all I'm saying is that it shouldn't be surprising.
     
    Anyway, if Onkyo ever bothers to include sorting by Album Artist, then I'll be a super happy camper. lol
     
  15. Peridot
    Zenifyx and others have reported, and provided real evidence of, serious deficiencies in this player's performance with streaming services.
     
    Despite lots of detailed academic debate of the technology involved, I have no better understanding of whether this player is fit for purpose or not.
     
    I am grateful to everyone for their input and will continue to follow the discussion in the hope that an answer my simple brain can understand will emerge [​IMG]
     
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